State of the Titans (post-Gryps)

[Changa]

I am returned, honored elders, in my quest of knowlegde. But this question's a bit different than the last two.

On one hand, I am asking about what happened to the remnants of the Titans that managed to (unfortunatly) survive Gryps.

On the other hand, I'm also asking for someone to explain Gundam Warplugis to me, who the hell Mashiro not-Scirocco Oaks really is, and why the fuck someone thought it was a good idea to clone him. I've read the first few chapters, but all I really want is a rundown of the plot. Was Mashiro's 'dad' a Titan's member? Did Anaheim know? Who's the chick in the Over.on?

I'd just use the wiki for this, but... oof, is that place empty. So many pages left unfilled, unfinished, near-devoid of useful informaiton, or just non-existant. So, once more, honored elders, I ask for thy knowledge.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am returned, honored elders, in my quest of knowlegde. But this question's a bit different than the last two.

I must protest. I am not an honored elder. I identify as a problem.

On one hand, I am asking about what happened to the remnants of the Titans that managed to (unfortunatly) survive Gryps.

So... most of the Titans were wiped out in the final stages of the Gryps conflict when the AEUG fired the Gryps II colony laser. The majority of the remaining Titans surrendered to the AEUG and EFSF.

In supplemental materials, several surviving groups of Titans officers launched various rebellions or retaliatory strikes against the Earth Federation. Advance of Zeta had one group from the Tel Aviv detachment attempt to launch a nuclear attack against the Earth only to be foiled by the AEUG. Titans sympathizers also launch the short-lived and messy Pezun rebellion in Sentinel. The Earth Federation forces reintegrated some members of the Titans back into the regular forces, though it's noted that some of them were subjected to retaliatory postings to remote bases where they couldn't do anything damaging (e.g. Torrington Base). Some are said to have fled to the lunar city Ayers that had been sympathetic to the Titans. Others are noted to have fought for Neo Zeon in the subsequent war between the Earth Federation and Neo Zeon. A handful fled to Mars and joined one of the Zeon factions on Mars, and a couple ended up in private military companies.

[MythSearcher]

Some also joined Neo Zeon in Mirage of Zeon.

[Seto Kaiba]

On the other hand, I'm also asking for someone to explain Gundam Warplugis to me, who the hell Mashiro not-Scirocco Oaks really is, and why the fuck someone thought it was a good idea to clone him. I've read the first few chapters, but all I really want is a rundown of the plot. Was Mashiro's 'dad' a Titan's member? Did Anaheim know? Who's the chick in the Over.on?

So... I'd never heard of Gundam Walpurgis before now. I did some digging, and what I found is so incredibly stupid I had to double-check to make sure someone wasn't taking the piss.

I have seldom been so glad - so thoroughly overjoyed - that Sunrise's official position is that only animated Gundam works are canonical. Gundam Walpurgis is not the stupidest work of fiction I've ever read, but it's definitely within the realm of what you'd call "advanced stupid".

Mashiro Oaks is not a clone of Paptimus Scirocco...

Spoiler

... he's a bio-android made in the image of, and carrying the (partial) memories and personality of, Paptimus Scirocco. Tonio Mannheim (alias Tonio Oaks) was part of the team that developed these bio-androids aboard the Jupitris and later as part of a secret society in order to "revive" Paptimus Scirocco. Mashiro could be called an alternate personality occupying part of the bio-android's mind after Tonio tampered with the bio-android's memories. "Shamal" is the suppressed personality modeled on Paptimus Scirocco's, who pulls a Grand Theft Me on Mashiro partway through the story.

The plot is essentially a mad scramble by several interested parties to seize control of Mashiro and the Oberon for their own gain. Half the cast seems to be some kind of brainwashed and crazy, with their memories being overwritten with someone else's identity and the climax involves a seemingly incomplete plot on the original Scirocco's part that the secret society wants to complete involving a Dollar General version of the Angel Halo from Victory Gundam.

[MythSearcher]

So... I'd never heard of Gundam Walpurgis before now. I did some digging, and what I found is so incredibly stupid I had to double-check to make sure someone wasn't taking the piss.

I have seldom been so glad - so thoroughly overjoyed - that Sunrise's official position is that only animated Gundam works are canonical. Gundam Walpurgis is not the stupidest work of fiction I've ever read, but it's definitely within the realm of what you'd call "advanced stupid".

Mashiro Oaks is not a clone of Paptimus Scirocco...

Spoiler

... he's a bio-android made in the image of, and carrying the (partial) memories and personality of, Paptimus Scirocco. Tonio Mannheim (alias Tonio Oaks) was part of the team that developed these bio-androids aboard the Jupitris and later as part of a secret society in order to "revive" Paptimus Scirocco. Mashiro could be called an alternate personality occupying part of the bio-android's mind after Tonio tampered with the bio-android's memories. "Shamal" is the suppressed personality modeled on Paptimus Scirocco's, who pulls a Grand Theft Me on Mashiro partway through the story.

The plot is essentially a mad scramble by several interested parties to seize control of Mashiro and the Oberon for their own gain. Half the cast seems to be some kind of brainwashed and crazy, with their memories being overwritten with someone else's identity and the climax involves a seemingly incomplete plot on the original Scirocco's part that the secret society wants to complete involving a Dollar General version of the Angel Halo from Victory Gundam.

You are lucky.
I learned of the series at around the publication of volume 3, where they held an MS design contest(?) for "MS for Haman" and one of the winners is Katou Takuji, the mangaka for the manga adaptation of Knights and Magic, and he posted in on Twitter.
It was a semi-joking design Syuku-shiki:
https://twitter.com/isiyumi/status/1102852854300065792
https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/robosoku/im ... 5902cb.jpg

Which caught my attention and somehow bought vol. 1~3 just because of this without knowing what story it was. What a waste of money.
ok, tbf, at vol. 3 the conspiracy laden plot still isn't THAT stupid, but still I had not interest in reading any further.

[Mafty]

Those designs are ...interesting to say the least. Seriously they look like a combination of about 5 different mech series designs(some of them look like advance of Zeta designs, some look like there from GunXSword, some like SRW, and one of them looks like its from Mars Daybreak.), or are these the contest entries? If so that would explain the different designs.

As for the rather odd story, it seems like the fact that Manga isn't canon offers the writers a chance to go off on their own tangent at times (though apparently Sunrise still mandates some stuff). Whether this works or not seems to vary.

[MythSearcher]

Those designs are ...interesting to say the least. Seriously they look like a combination of about 5 different mech series designs(some of them look like advance of Zeta designs, some look like there from GunXSword, some like SRW, and one of them looks like its from Mars Daybreak.), or are these the contest entries? If so that would explain the different designs.

As for the rather odd story, it seems like the fact that Manga isn't canon offers the writers a chance to go off on their own tangent at times (though apparently Sunrise still mandates some stuff). Whether this works or not seems to vary.

These are the contest entries.

It is not an issue that the manga is or isn't canon, the problem is that the story is a mess.
You can have non-canon stories that still makes perfect sense and you will want and hope it is canon, say, most of Origin, Gihren's Assassination Plan, Moon Crisis.
and there're stories where you are ok with it being canon, like RoJR, you also have stories where you don't want it to be canon but still enjoyable, like Hidden Shadow of G, Gundam VS Giganta.
There are those that are messed up and you think it is a waste of time to have read them, Valpurgis lands here, and a lot of current Gundam ACE land here.

And then you have stories that you really want to just forget they even existed or not, most of the rest of Gundam ACE manga land here, including TB.

Also, Sunrise really has nothing to do with whether the stories are canon or not. The IP holder is Bandai and they always have the final say. They don't mind giving more freedom to the creators and have them roam free, but they also won't mind if the creators stick to canon and they can claim the stories to be canon. Pretty sure the current stance is some manga only works like Crossbone Gundam(but the later sequels not so sure) can still be considered canon enough

[Kuruni]

Somewhat relate, but the BR-GM profile (which is written from POV of a journalist in UC 0120s) note how frustrating it is for research topic involve the Gryps War since there's so little information available to public. It appears that the Earth Federation blame everything on Titans and treat the whole event like the modern German government do with WWII Nazi.

[Seto Kaiba]

Also, Sunrise really has nothing to do with whether the stories are canon or not. The IP holder is Bandai and they always have the final say. They don't mind giving more freedom to the creators and have them roam free, but they also won't mind if the creators stick to canon and they can claim the stories to be canon. Pretty sure the current stance is some manga only works like Crossbone Gundam(but the later sequels not so sure) can still be considered canon enough

As I've demonstrated previously, this is not accurate... Bandai owns Sunrise, and it is through their ownership of Sunrise that they own the Intellectual Property of Gundam. The copyrights and management of the entire Gundam franchise are within the scope of Sunrise/Bandai Namco Filmworks. We've got statements from them to this effect as well as the credits for the actual shows and publications. That nothing but the animation is canon has been official franchise policy for two decades and counting.

Those designs are ...interesting to say the least. Seriously they look like a combination of about 5 different mech series designs(some of them look like advance of Zeta designs, some look like there from GunXSword, some like SRW, and one of them looks like its from Mars Daybreak.), or are these the contest entries? If so that would explain the different designs.

The beauty of drafts... lol. It takes a lot of polishing and refinement to get concepts to look artistically consistent in any development... like how the early/initial/novel versions of some designs like the Zeta or the Nu Gundam look like something from another franchise entirely.

As for the rather odd story, it seems like the fact that Manga isn't canon offers the writers a chance to go off on their own tangent at times (though apparently Sunrise still mandates some stuff). Whether this works or not seems to vary.

That's "expanded universe" for ya... sometimes it turns up a decent story, but more often than not it's just fanservice or inanity.

[DragoMaster009]

Honestly, the Outer/Moon Crisis/REON trilogy felt stale and somewhat boring to me.

[MythSearcher]

As I've demonstrated previously, this is not accurate... Bandai owns Sunrise, and it is through their ownership of Sunrise that they own the Intellectual Property of Gundam. The copyrights and management of the entire Gundam franchise are within the scope of Sunrise/Bandai Namco Filmworks. We've got statements from them to this effect as well as the credits for the actual shows and publications. That nothing but the animation is canon has been official franchise policy for two decades and counting.

Sigh, they can have Sunrise do the management, but it doesn't mean they have no final say on the topic. Every time they make something and wants it to be canon, they can do it. Sunrise surely WANTS to have the final say, and surely acts like they do, but just as how they are basically completely absorbed by Bandai and even their name barely holds any more, they have very little say about whether they have the actual power or not to keep that saying.
Like, if you let an agent handle your stocks, you still get final say on whether you want to have it back, the agent has no power to stop you from taking it back any time you want.

Honestly, the Outer/Moon Crisis/REON trilogy felt stale and somewhat boring to me.

It was written back in the early 90's, and pretty short stories as well. I don't see Unicorn having much more interesting plot than it does and the story is much longer. Also, Fukui obviously had much less UC lore knowledge or simply doesn't care and just writes whatever he wants disregarding anything previously established, while Matsuura clearly understands and knew his material much better. Matsuura also doesn't suffer from "my creation is the bestest and must have the strongest ultra hyper terrible horror machina god" syndrome.

[Kuruni]

That nothing but the animation is canon has been official franchise policy for two decades and counting.

IIRC, their policy is about "official" status, not canon (hence why it doesn't address the contradiction of animate works). Japanese seem to be fine with how fictional works can contradict each other without the need to clarify the one true event.

[MythSearcher]

IIRC, their policy is about "official" status, not canon (hence why it doesn't address the contradiction of animate works). Japanese seem to be fine with how fictional works can contradict each other without the need to clarify the one true event.

Actually, they kinda do care. Hence we have books like Gundam Officials and Gundam Encyclopedia Ver. 1.5, where things are listed as official/canon, as opposed to things they still include but called alternative/another.
These also appear in a lot of fan sites so the official stance reflects what fans want.(ok, not all fans care)

Granted, the term used in Japanese isn't exactly canon but that is pretty much what it means, at least close enough.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sigh, they can have Sunrise do the management, but it doesn't mean they have no final say on the topic. Every time they make something and wants it to be canon, they can do it. Sunrise surely WANTS to have the final say, and surely acts like they do, but just as how they are basically completely absorbed by Bandai and even their name barely holds any more, they have very little say about whether they have the actual power or not to keep that saying.
Like, if you let an agent handle your stocks, you still get final say on whether you want to have it back, the agent has no power to stop you from taking it back any time you want.

I'm afraid you seem to be operating under a severe organizational misapprehension. The corporation you're incorrectly referring to as "Bandai" is not a monolithic corporate entity... it's a conglomerate. The correct name of the top-level parent company is Bandai Namco Holdings Inc. AKA Bandai Namco Group. The actual company named Bandai Co. Ltd. is a toy company that's a wholly-owned subsidiary of Bandai Namco Holdings. Bandai Namco Filmworks (formerly Sunrise) is another subsidiary company of Bandai Namco Holdings, not of Bandai Co. Ltd. who operate in a different industry and have no stake in Bandai Namco Filmworks.

The sole purpose of a holding company is to hold shares of the various companies under its umbrella in order to form a corporate group. The most they get involved in the management of subsidiary companies is deciding who sits on the board or occupies what executive post, which they can use to set broad executive policy across the corporate group.

This entity you believe exists above Bandai Namco Filmworks that has the "real" final say in the Gundam franchise demonstrably doesn't exist. We know this, because it's a matter of public record that no such entity exists... 100% of the former Sunrise Inc.'s stock is owned by Bandai Namco Holdings. They're not owned by another Bandai Namco subsidiary, they're owned directly by the holding company itself.

IIRC, their policy is about "official" status, not canon (hence why it doesn't address the contradiction of animate works). Japanese seem to be fine with how fictional works can contradict each other without the need to clarify the one true event.

The actual term they use is "official setting", which is the Japanese language equivalent of "canon" in a literary context.

Works either belong to the official setting and are therefore considered official parts of the story and setting, or they don't and don't. Since the early 2000s, Sunrise's position has been that only animated works are part of the official setting of Gundam. (They just don't pick nits quite so ferociously as, say, certain western franchises.)

[Kuruni]

I still think (mostly because it's more fun) that the siruation is like pre-Disney Star Wars. George Lucas never took Expand Universe into consideration into account when working on it, although he left it on its own. Unlike Disney-era which started by declared everything invalid.

[Seto Kaiba]

I still think (mostly because it's more fun) that the siruation is like pre-Disney Star Wars. George Lucas never took Expand Universe into consideration into account when working on it, although he left it on its own. Unlike Disney-era which started by declared everything invalid.

Sorta... it's closer to the similar approach Star Trek took with its Expanded Universe. They don't take anything from it into consideration when developing new official material and they kind of let it do its own thing*, but with the explicit understanding that licensed works are "just for fun" and strictly unofficial. Kind of a global "That didn't happen, and if it did it happened differently" clause so they don't have to reconcile decades of licensed works every time they get a new story idea.


* Terms and Conditions apply

[MythSearcher]

I'm afraid you seem to be operating under a severe organizational misapprehension. The corporation you're incorrectly referring to as "Bandai" is not a monolithic corporate entity... it's a conglomerate. The correct name of the top-level parent company is Bandai Namco Holdings Inc. AKA Bandai Namco Group. The actual company named Bandai Co. Ltd. is a toy company that's a wholly-owned subsidiary of Bandai Namco Holdings. Bandai Namco Filmworks (formerly Sunrise) is another subsidiary company of Bandai Namco Holdings, not of Bandai Co. Ltd. who operate in a different industry and have no stake in Bandai Namco Filmworks.

The sole purpose of a holding company is to hold shares of the various companies under its umbrella in order to form a corporate group. The most they get involved in the management of subsidiary companies is deciding who sits on the board or occupies what executive post, which they can use to set broad executive policy across the corporate group.

This entity you believe exists above Bandai Namco Filmworks that has the "real" final say in the Gundam franchise demonstrably doesn't exist. We know this, because it's a matter of public record that no such entity exists... 100% of the former Sunrise Inc.'s stock is owned by Bandai Namco Holdings. They're not owned by another Bandai Namco subsidiary, they're owned directly by the holding company itself.

Pretty sure Bandai already owned Sunrise(1994) before its merger with Namco(2005) AND already managed to published Gundam Officials and similar books(through Media works and Kodansha, etc.) before that(since 2000) and thus they do claim the right to have a say in what's canon. Yes, the buying of Sotsu is later but they do have the 3rd highest stock in Sotsu after Nasu family for a pretty long time.
And Sunrise has no right to control all those publications nor even Sotsu, thus your assertion of them having any real final say is just having as little grounds as saying one subsidiary of a corporate group as any power over another.

[MythSearcher]

I still think (mostly because it's more fun) that the siruation is like pre-Disney Star Wars. George Lucas never took Expand Universe into consideration into account when working on it, although he left it on its own. Unlike Disney-era which started by declared everything invalid.

Well, the thing is, it is actually the opposite.
After Bandai bought Sunrise, they actually spread out and have other things as official as well, though yes, manga and novel are usually placed in lesser positions IF they have contradiction to anime.(but we also see that they will also claim anime to be non-canon when they contradict others too much)
Sunrise may claim themselves to be the only canon, but do they really have the power or final say to claim so? No. They don't even own themselves any more.

[Seto Kaiba]

Pretty sure Bandai already owned Sunrise(1994) before its merger with Namco(2005) AND already managed to published Gundam Officials and similar books(through Media works and Kodansha, etc.) before that(since 2000) and thus they do claim the right to have a say in what's canon. Yes, the buying of Sotsu is later but they do have the 3rd highest stock in Sotsu after Nasu family for a pretty long time.
And Sunrise has no right to control all those publications nor even Sotsu, thus your assertion of them having any real final say is just having as little grounds as saying one subsidiary of a corporate group as any power over another.

Can we please stop this absurd counterfactual of yours? You're arguing against 100% of the evidence here... including the statements by Sunrise's planning and franchise management team and records maintained by the Japanese government pertaining to ownership of copyrights and stocks.

The only way your argument can be true is if Bandai Namco Holdings, Sunrise, and the Japanese government are all lying about who owns what. The copyright registrations for Gundam works clearly show that it's the former Sunrise Inc. (now Bandai Namco Filmworks) who own the copyrights and intellectual property rights. Those are publicly accessible records. Similarly, it's a matter of public record that the former Sunrise Inc. is 100% owned by Bandai Namco's holding company, not by Bandai itself. Lastly, of course, it's also a matter of public record that Sunrise are the ones making the creative decisions WRT Gundam... and that those decisions are made by an internal planning team, not by some eternal entity.

[MythSearcher]

Pretty sure Bandai already owned Sunrise(1994) before its merger with Namco(2005) AND already managed to published Gundam Officials and similar books(through Media works and Kodansha, etc.) before that(since 2000) and thus they do claim the right to have a say in what's canon. Yes, the buying of Sotsu is later but they do have the 3rd highest stock in Sotsu after Nasu family for a pretty long time.
And Sunrise has no right to control all those publications nor even Sotsu, thus your assertion of them having any real final say is just having as little grounds as saying one subsidiary of a corporate group as any power over another.

Can we please stop this absurd counterfactual of yours? You're arguing against 100% of the evidence here... including the statements by Sunrise's planning and franchise management team and records maintained by the Japanese government pertaining to ownership of copyrights and stocks.

The only way your argument can be true is if Bandai Namco Holdings, Sunrise, and the Japanese government are all lying about who owns what. The copyright registrations for Gundam works clearly show that it's the former Sunrise Inc. (now Bandai Namco Filmworks) who own the copyrights and intellectual property rights. Those are publicly accessible records. Similarly, it's a matter of public record that the former Sunrise Inc. is 100% owned by Bandai Namco's holding company, not by Bandai itself. Lastly, of course, it's also a matter of public record that Sunrise are the ones making the creative decisions WRT Gundam... and that those decisions are made by an internal planning team, not by some eternal entity.

You will have to post the copyright documents.

The best I can find are the trademark registrations, out of the 120 Gundam trademarks: https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/s0100 (you will have to do the search yourself)
only 15 of them are filed by Sunrise, and others by Sotsu as the owner.

Bandai Namco also doesn't exist back in 1994 when Sunrise became under Bandai Group, so your assertion about them not owned by Bandai but Bandai Namco wasn't true until 2005's merger, which, there's already tons of things Bandai managed and published that claims official status, which they didn't even own Sotsu at the time but is very likely willing to pay the licensing fees to do so.
Also, due to the reorganisation of the merger, Bandai released some of its businesses to other subsidiaries under BN holdings, the most prominent one is the gaming and amusement business. But it doesn't mean they never did anything in those business, so does the control on Sunrise. What you are stressing in your reply ignores historical events and just "because it doesn't have that business now, it never did anything in the past about this"

Yes, all of these are also in the public record.

Business and economic news also share the view that Bandai, or if you prefer the name Bandai Namco, won the copyright war:
https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGKKZO50 ... 9A0DTA000/
https://friday.kodansha.co.jp/article/80528
http://animationbusiness.info/archives/8613
https://gendai.media/articles/-/67881


Oh, and Sentinel is a very good example. Model Graphix didn't negotiate with Sunrise, they negotiated with Bandai. And as we know it, publications involving canon includes Sentinel, yes, including the ones you like to say "endorsed by Sunrise". That was in 1988, even before Bandai bought Sunrise.
Sunrise is an anime company, they don't touch anything non-anime, and Bandai does so for publications, games, etc. They don't send some Sunrise personel to do it for them because they are the major sponsor and have nested interest in the Gundam franchise.