Anti Newtype weapons, systems and MS

[D_I]

I was wondering how many anti newtype weapons have the feddies made? i know that there is E.X.A.M, H.A.D.E.S, NT.D, and i think N_I_T_R_O
but those are the only ones that i can remember at the moment.

[Mafty]

There really doesn't seem to be any other than those. The reasons are probably twofold: As powerful as Newtype's are it would be hard to find a weapon to oppose the, and the Federation wants Newtype's put tp their own use.

[Janx]

Honestly I'd argue only the NT-D is the only true anti-newtype system. The other 3 just enhance the pilot/suit in various ways which really makes them just generally better at normal operation. While the NT-D actually let you hijack newtype weapons.

[MythSearcher]

Not EFF and not canon, but in REON you get Gundam Zephyr Phantom Mk-II "Reon" equipped with Anti Funnel System that can disable funnels, making the AI onboard able to overcome NTs in combat.

This story follows the timeline of Masafumi Matsuura's Outer Gundam and Moon Crisis (There's another manga called Program Master by the same mangaka, but I have not read that one so I do not know if it is also the continuum.) Where I highly doubt Unicorn's story and mech line-up concept is at least loosely(understatement) based on Moon Crisis(which even Matsuura himself voiced out online when he first watched the TV anime of Unicorn[he didn't read or watch the novel and the OVA) and especially the anime utilising the hijacking of funnels making it suspiciously like a homage of the anti funnel system. This may not be plagiarism from Harutoshi Fukui though, the story concept can well be provided by Bandai.

In case you do not know the basic story of Moon Crisis, happened in 0099, it is about a main character in the Z+ team(EFF strike group with mass production Zeta type MS called Z Prompt, the successor of Zeta+) accidentally saving Minerva(which is protected by a now cargo ship crew of Zeon remnants), who is targeted by the radical terrorist group called Nouvel AEUG which later allied with Neo Zeon. The final battle of the main character, which is now piloting the new Z plutonius, is fought against Grand Zeong.
Granted, to be fair, the mecha line-up both utilising new plus TMS(Unicorn having Delta+) is because both are basically based on Sentinel's Z+ strike group settings, and Moon Crisis was basically utilising most things known of at its time to its fullest, and Neo Zeong didn't appear until in the anime(the novel didn't get a Zeong successor)

BTW, I personally like the story of Moon Crisis and Grand Zeon is a much better design than Neo Zeong.
Though the art style of Matsuura is, well, even as fan, I can't say is anything but strange and pretty bad.(And this is not because of art style differences of the 90s and now, his art style is strange even back then. And he is not good at drawing characters)

[Underrated GM Custom]

Interesting, didn't know how many similarities there were between Moon Crisis and Unicorn.

As for anti-Newtype systems EXAM was the first and most iconic one, the Psychic Miasma given out by Marion's spirit would be an intense and malevolent 'pressure' that other Newtype feel, although that was more of a side effect than a design goal. Some others have pointed out in the past that NT-D may have been built off the research that went into EXAM, and it's intended design goal was to shutdown Newtype use weapons such as Funnels.

[Mafty]

I agree the similarities are rather strong between Moon Crisis and Unicorn (Granted the plot lines were set with Mineva in the end of ZZ, what actually happened to her clone anyway?), so I can see why the author noted this.

The MSZ-006PL1 Z Plutonius is a rather unique design and the whole stories mech line up seems much less merchandise driven than Unicorn ended up being (which often begged the question where were all these units during Char's rebellion?).

Back to the main topic does anyone else notice how Gundam Unicorn is the only Anime to feature Anti-Newtype weapons? All the other series that use this are manga or video games, Granted Unicorn started off as a novel.

As for the system itself it seems as though N_I_T_R_O is actually the best one (or the best of the not so great options). All the system require instense physical or mental pressure on a Non Newtype pilot, and can result in either killing them or making them go berserk. N_I_T_R_O only temporarily changes the pilot's personality.

This in fact may be the real reason Anti Newtype weapons never took off , as it's counterproductive to the effort, and ultimately too difficult to actively combat Newtypes.

[Seto Kaiba]

Interesting timing, as some relevant materials were released recently... a Master Archive Mobile Suit volume devoted to the EXAM-equipped Blue Destiny.

[Underrated GM Custom]

Very interesting, I'm curious how much new information will be in the EXAM Master Archive and how many potential retcons it will have. I know the reboot manga has already changed a few things, along with a plethora or new MS variants to sell model kits.

As for why don't we see Anti Newtype weapons in any animations well that's a two part answer.

In universe depending on the media you are watching, Newtypes have faded from the public consciousness (F91, Victory and more recently Hathaway's Flash) so developing an anti-NT weapon doesn't make the most sense there. Likewise in the OYW, Newtypes were still mythical creatures with Revil wondering if the White Base crew were Newtypes or not, only Zeon seemed to take it seriously. Newtypes were much more common in Z/ZZ so if an anti-NT weapon were to be developed it would likely happen in that time period but who would create it? Perhaps the Titans, as we see the government was afraid of what Amuro was capable of and so locked him under house arrest, but the Titans appeared more focused on using (Cyber)Newtypes as a weapon rather than opposing them.

Perhaps you could make the case that Axis Zeon might develop one, but if Haman Karn is in charge, why create a weapon meant to defeat her? Perhaps Glemmy Toto would develop one, but that would certainly require a lot of resources and scientific talent to unlock the mysteries of space brain waves and that would be hard to keep under wraps during a planned rebellion. So in-universe I can't think of too many people that would have the time or resources to pull this off, you'd need an extremely wealthy third party with a mcguffin such as the Vist institute.

Out of universe, most UC Gundam animated works were directed by Tomino almost back to back to back. If the creative team didn't consider it, then it wouldn't happen back then. When you look at most of the UC work since then, Newtypes are often not featured. As I recall Gundam X was the first non-Tomino series to use Newtypes because prior to that there was concern about treading over the creators original ground by including one of his unique and well known creations.

[Seto Kaiba]

One detail I remember from some creator commentary on the subject of Newtypes is a remark about how Newtypes never really had a chance to be The Next Step in human evolution because their military potential was too evident. By the time of Gundam UC in 0096, the in-story concept of a Newtype had been flanderized from Zeon Deikun's poorly-understood concept of a more evolved human adapted to the realities of living in space to simply being another word for "supersoldier". The very idea of Newtypes was poorly understood and almost all research into them was centered on weaponizing them. As such, it's not especially surprising that the Newtype population never got a chance to grow given that the few Newtypes that humanity was producing were being caught up in, and destroyed in, the many wars that occurred in the UC.

True anti-Newtype weapons seem to have been somewhat rare in part because the very idea of what a Newtype was wasn't well understood and in part because there just weren't enough "confirmed" Newtypes to justify the effort.

(And if the very first paragraph of the Master Archive Mobile Suit RX-79BD Blue Destiny book is anything to go by, a lot of them were STUPIDLY ill-conceived and as dangerous to their allies as their enemies.)

[Mafty]

True, often there is a gap between what the creative team came up with originally, and what the sequels focus on. Aside from the previously mentioned advanced MS tech seen in interquels ; we also have things like the whole cloning technology disappearing after the First Neo Zeon war along with all the ships and MS, or Gryps not being used in CCA, only for these to randomly reappear in years later interquels.

I agree that the out of universe factor is probably based on the staffs own ideas about the storylines. There weren't any suits from Neo Zeon in the 2nd Neo Zeon because

Spoiler

All of them would have been destroyed in the end of ZZ, Along with the Cloning technology ; Likewise Char's remnant was the only remnant left.

. As for Gryps

Spoiler

Presumably it would have been disassembled after the Titans were destroyed

.

As for Newtypes

Spoiler

Amuro and Char's force of Newtype power was probably supposed to be the pinnacle of Newtypes.

. Following these developments Tomino and staff would have tried exploring new alternatives (I seem to remember reading that CCA was only meant to tie up Amuro and Char's storyline.)

The whole leaving the original creators idea's alone does explain why none of the early interquels even mention Newtpes (ie, 0080, Stardust Memory, ). Its only in the whole OYW Nostalgia wave do these powers get more focus again.

It is worth noting however that Newtype powers don't really go away in the later Tomino UC works. Seabook, Carozzo and maybe Cecily have them in F91, and the return to prominence again in Victory Gundam.

Really the only Tomino future UC works that don't use Newtype powers are G-Reco and Turn A Gundam (Yes, I know the timeline is a bit muddled on these).

[Seto Kaiba]

Having never played the Blue Destiny video game or read the manga, there is some WILD stuff in here. Not sure how much of it is retcons or not, but whooboy...

Based on the description here, the EXAM system is 100% meant as an anti-Newtype weapon. Apparently Dr. Kurst Moses (lol, great name) was one of the founding members of the Principality of Zeon's Flanagan Institute and played a role in the initial assessment of Newtype "candidates" both before and after the Flanagan Institute started basically abducting war orphans as experimental subjects.

Dr. Moses worked closely with a promising candidate of unknown (records lost or destroyed) origin named Marion Welch. Her outstanding results in testing with only minimal pilot training were a source of considerable joy for the researchers, except Dr. Moses who became increasingly afraid of her and the entire concept of Newtypes. So distressed was he that he coined a new branch of Newtype theory called Newtype Threat Theory in which he laid out his presentiments of a dark future in which Newtypes would rise up against and destroy "Oldtype" modern humanity. He started researching anti-Newtype countermeasures that would eventually evolve into the EXAM system. Apparently his prototyping for the EXAM system, starting at the YMS-06Z, was centered on the idea that what Newtypes were picking up on in combat was specific brainwaves related to "killing intent". The EXAM system applied a psycommu system to detect the brainwaves related to that "killing intent", track them, and had an AI in the system set up to decide the optimal offensive or defensive action and override the pilot's instructions if necessary. This mechanism was intended to simulate the Newtype's seemingly precognative ability to sense danger. He also built in a reaction specifically to Newtype brainwaves that made them priority targets and to aid in destroying them released the limiters on the reactor and propulsion system to allow the EXAM-equipped MS to predict the behavior of Newtype-operated mobile weapons and destroy them. The goal is described, quite bluntly, as "the annihilation of the Newtype".

Apparently the big breakthrough for him was an accident in testing that drove Marion Welch insane. The accident provided Dr. Moses with a clear and unambiguous record of the brainwaves associated with "killing intent", allowing him to succeed in reproducing Newtype-like intuition mecanically with a goal of weaponizing it against Newtypes. They were unable to fully duplicate the "killing intent" wave in laboratory tests, so the computers from the accident were used in prototyping because they had already recorded the "killing intent" wave in full.

[Kuruni]

One sad and ironic part of EXAM is that it's noted how Moses was like a father figure to Marion at first (mentioned in the illustrator's comment of the old manga, and there's Marion's flashback in EXA manga).

[Underrated GM Custom]

Interesting, I first came across the Blue Destiny in the 2000s and I wish I had had a sega saturn to play it. Back then as I recall the Dr was 'Chuust' Moses, but I think Kurst is more fitting (and funny) name.

The original manga sidestory was pretty decent, but unfortunately was cancelled before it got too far, it ends right when BD-1 and the Efreet Custom tear into each other at California Base. (Coincidentally I was reading up on this older thread for the Blue Destiny right before this one: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12611). I haven't gotten far enough into the reboot to see if they retcon much of Marion's backstory.

That said the part you quoted about EXAM being designed specifically as an anti-newtype weapon system and Moses really hating Newtypes doesn't ring a bell to me. Perhaps that's a new addition since I recall him having more of a positive relationship with Marion as Kuruni mentions.

Newtypes picking up on "Killer Intent" is certainly a novel idea, I wonder if that type of theory is corroborated in any other sources. The closest I can think of might be the Biocomputer from F91.

[Seto Kaiba]

That said the part you quoted about EXAM being designed specifically as an anti-newtype weapon system and Moses really hating Newtypes doesn't ring a bell to me. Perhaps that's a new addition since I recall him having more of a positive relationship with Marion as Kuruni mentions.

Master Archive doesn't describe Dr. Kurst Moses as hating Newtypes. It's not discussed directly, but to me it seems likely that his growing fear of Marion Welch's abilities was shaped in part by the Principality of Zeon's own rhetoric about Newtypes. That seems to have led to him his own particular interpretation of that rhetoric in the form of Newtype Threat Theory about the emergence of a Newtype master race that would rise up and exterminate Oldtype humanity with their superior abilities. His views were probably also colored by the fact that he and the Flanagan Institute didn't really experiment with Newtypes in any capacity except weaponizing them, so his view of Newtypes was somewhat skewed by its military bias.

Newtypes picking up on "Killer Intent" is certainly a novel idea, I wonder if that type of theory is corroborated in any other sources. The closest I can think of might be the Biocomputer from F91.

That's presented as Kurst Moses' own interpretation of how Newtype prescience worked. Master Archive declines to identify whether or not he's actually CORRECT in that interpretation. His theory of Newtype abilities and how they worked functioned well enough for him to construct the EXAM system but not to actually properly understand the psychic aspects of it.

[MythSearcher]

Very interesting, I'm curious how much new information will be in the EXAM Master Archive and how many potential retcons it will have. I know the reboot manga has already changed a few things, along with a plethora or new MS variants to sell model kits.

As for why don't we see Anti Newtype weapons in any animations well that's a two part answer.

In universe depending on the media you are watching, Newtypes have faded from the public consciousness (F91, Victory and more recently Hathaway's Flash) so developing an anti-NT weapon doesn't make the most sense there. Likewise in the OYW, Newtypes were still mythical creatures with Revil wondering if the White Base crew were Newtypes or not, only Zeon seemed to take it seriously. Newtypes were much more common in Z/ZZ so if an anti-NT weapon were to be developed it would likely happen in that time period but who would create it? Perhaps the Titans, as we see the government was afraid of what Amuro was capable of and so locked him under house arrest, but the Titans appeared more focused on using (Cyber)Newtypes as a weapon rather than opposing them.

Perhaps you could make the case that Axis Zeon might develop one, but if Haman Karn is in charge, why create a weapon meant to defeat her? Perhaps Glemmy Toto would develop one, but that would certainly require a lot of resources and scientific talent to unlock the mysteries of space brain waves and that would be hard to keep under wraps during a planned rebellion. So in-universe I can't think of too many people that would have the time or resources to pull this off, you'd need an extremely wealthy third party with a mcguffin such as the Vist institute.

Out of universe, most UC Gundam animated works were directed by Tomino almost back to back to back. If the creative team didn't consider it, then it wouldn't happen back then. When you look at most of the UC work since then, Newtypes are often not featured. As I recall Gundam X was the first non-Tomino series to use Newtypes because prior to that there was concern about treading over the creators original ground by including one of his unique and well known creations.

Actually, if you think about it, cyber NT is one of the answers to EFF's anti NT project, and from MSV-R RoJR, we now that to some extend Chimera team is Zeon's answer to it.(Even though the term cyber NT has not yet been established at the time and they just call them NT as well)
Having people with NT capabilities, but mind control/brainwash them to be obedient to you(or the slightly more ethical method of Chimera, use kids and have them build a bond with the commander)
Axis' NT clone+cyber NT project also seems to be similarly with mind control/brainwash elements.

I think it is a logical conclusion to make to use NT against NT, and if you have the method to create NTs as you wish and control them, or maybe even make yourself one(Iron Mask, for example), it is a perfect type of anti NT system.

[Underrated GM Custom]

Master Archive doesn't describe Dr. Kurst Moses as hating Newtypes. It's not discussed directly, but to me it seems likely that his growing fear of Marion Welch's abilities was shaped in part by the Principality of Zeon's own rhetoric about Newtypes.

Perhaps hate was a strong word, but the fear and mistrust of Newtypes didn't seem as pronounced as I remember. I grabbed my copy of the old manga and flipped through, Moses appears in one page of a flashback early on introducing Nimbus to Marion, and then in the final section in another flashback where he asks for Marion's help and she says his words seem sincere. Then a page later Moses is shown as distraught that Newtypes will destroy us all along. Guess it was always there and I had just forgotten

Can you expand more on the Zeon's rhetoric about Newtypes? I'm not too familiar with how the side materials describe the NT rhetoric changed from Deikun's initial description.

Actually, if you think about it, cyber NT is one of the answers to EFF's anti NT project, and from MSV-R RoJR, we now that to some extend Chimera team is Zeon's answer to it.(Even though the term cyber NT has not yet been established at the time and they just call them NT as well).

That's true, fighting fire with fire is certainly one way to look at it as an anti-NT project.

Spoiler

I was a bit surprised by that twist in MSV-R, where they are trying to paint Johnny as Zeon's answer to bringing down the Red Comet. It felt a bit unecessary, since Johnny has always had a premier role in Zeon, making him exist solely for the sake of an Anti-Char human weapon seemed silly to me. But I guess as most long running mangas go on, they keep inventing more and more twists.

I personally preferred him having no NT connection at all, which is why the Red Zeta from Gundam Evolve just wasn't for him.

[D_I]

dang this post blew up quick. ive been thinking about this recently and i wonder what would have happened to amuro if he had used an EXAM equipped unit. iirc it could fry his brain immediately (at least i think EXAM does that)
it would be terrifying to see what would happen if he got ahold of a unit like that (Maybe Red Rider?).

[D_I]

Red Rider?).

just remembered that the red rider uses A.L.I.C.E and not H.A.D.E.S

[Seto Kaiba]

I think it is a logical conclusion to make to use NT against NT, and if you have the method to create NTs as you wish and control them, or maybe even make yourself one(Iron Mask, for example), it is a perfect type of anti NT system.

When it works, anyway. The Cyber-Newtype process was/is extremely hit-and-miss when it comes to producing candidates who are mentally stable. For every Gyunei Guss or Full Frontal, there are several unstable and often unpredictable "failures" like Chara Soon, Four Murasume, Rosamia Badam, or Ple Twelve who are so mentally unsound that they suffer borderline psychosis, intense mood swings, physical and mental pain, or are unable to even function as normal human beings due to their brainwashing.

Can you expand more on the Zeon's rhetoric about Newtypes? I'm not too familiar with how the side materials describe the NT rhetoric changed from Deikun's initial description.

You could argue the true originator of the idea was whoever framed the now-hidden portion of the original Universal Century charter that talked about giving a new breed of human adapted to space priority in running the Earth Federation.

Zeon Zum Deikun Contolist philosophy popularized the idea that humanity's migration into space would led to the next great step in human evolution. His philosophy was full of unscientific crap like evolutionary levels, goal-based evolution, and hidden potential in "unused" parts of the human brain, but what he espoused was that spacenoids would naturally develop into a new breed of human with an expanded consciousness that is able to unlock the full potential of the human mind. When he died and Degwin Zabi became the new leader of Side 3, little effort was needed on Gihren Zabi's part to twist Deikun's philosophy that a new type of human would emerge among spacenoids first into a doctrine of spacenoid exceptionalism to unite Side 3 against the Federation and then into a belief that spacenoids were a chosen people and the emergence of a Newtype master race.

Considering that the Principality's government was already a fascist state and had already killed billions in the name of "independence" and the aforementioned social doctrine, it isn't hard to see how Dr. Kurst Moses might've come up with Newtype Threat Theory after viewing the results of his research on Marion Welch through the lens of the Principality's own speeches about clearing the way for a new world order and Newtypes. It's almost just taking the Principality's main political talking points and saying "Maybe this is actually a REALLY bad thing."

[MythSearcher]

When it works, anyway. The Cyber-Newtype process was/is extremely hit-and-miss when it comes to producing candidates who are mentally stable. For every Gyunei Guss or Full Frontal, there are several unstable and often unpredictable "failures" like Chara Soon, Four Murasume, Rosamia Badam, or Ple Twelve who are so mentally unsound that they suffer borderline psychosis, intense mood swings, physical and mental pain, or are unable to even function as normal human beings due to their brainwashing.

Well, it is still under development so of course there will be failures. But that is essentially what they want to do. And since no other project is better than it I'd say it is at least an answer they came up with, whether actually succeeding or not.

And I think they can make mentally stable cyber NTs, just that they become unstable when they brainwash them.
I mean, having implanted a mental weakness to exploit them obviously will make them mentally unstable.

Iron mask, on the other hand, seems to be pretty stable since he doesn't have to brainwash himself.
Gyunei and Full Frontal are similar, aren't brainwashed.