zeta gundam overrated?

[MythSearcher]

No, that's merchandise. If you're feeling REALLY charitable you could call them prequels, sequels, and side stories in name only. They are non-canonical "what if" stories from the animation's perspective and have no real bearing on the actual continuity or setting. It's like MSV. It's just a thing they do as a side hustle that isn't really related to the shows and because the licensing revenue helps pay off the production costs of the show and add to its total revenue.

Call it whatever you want, the intended effects are the same as making an anime(maybe just lesser but they also put less budget in them)
Whether they are merchandise or not, the fact still remains that they were and still are trying their best to make each timeline into full fledged milking cow like UC, whether you like it or not.

Also, you keep saying Sunrise manage the timelines, no, they don't own the timelines, they are just paid for the anime and never own the rights to the franchise in anyway.
Not even Tomino own UC, they just respect him enough to keep including his name in every Gundam anime, but the fact remains that he got no say in making of new series he didn't propose. Heck, he didn't even have any say but to conform and budge and make a new series when the he was asked to make V Gundam, which he really want to have nothing to do with Gundam any more.

Oh, I'm sure many of the key staff who work on the AUs privately hoped that their respective one-and-done stories would take off the same way that the UC did. That'd mean steady work, better pay, prestige in the industry, etc. If the momentum lasts, they're on the gravy train for life. I'm sure that many of them dream of being the next Yoshiyuki Tomino, Shoji Kawamori, Shinichiro Watanabe, etc.

Not really?
For any Sunrise/Bandai employees, they get paid for any work they do at the company and the company will give them work no matter if it's Gundam or not. Check the studios' and you will see that they make anime other than Gundam as well.
For part time staff, low paid animators don't get a say in the continuum anyway, you may get people like Fukuda that isn't really a Sunrise staff but he is pretty much one with very little to none other company experience and is some how in very good terms with a producer in Sunrise.

I have no idea where you get the idea Sunrise own the franchise and have any say about making its continuum or not, they are just paid staff like any of the others you try to down play as just merchandise.

[Seto Kaiba]

Call it whatever you want, the intended effects are the same as making an anime(maybe just lesser but they also put less budget in them)
Whether they are merchandise or not, the fact still remains that they were and still are trying their best to make each timeline into full fledged milking cow like UC, whether you like it or not.

No, the intended effects are NOT the same as making an anime. Not even close. We're talking about relatively low-volume print media that is marketed directly to fans. It has nowhere near the market penetration of an anime series carried by a major network. Not only that, there's no effort made whatsoever to reconcile that material with the animated material. It's not referenced at all by animated works or official coverage of those animated works. It might as well not exist for all the impact it has on the actual setting and timeline.

Also, you keep saying Sunrise manage the timelines, no, they don't own the timelines, they are just paid for the anime and never own the rights to the franchise in anyway.
Not even Tomino own UC, they just respect him enough to keep including his name in every Gundam anime, but the fact remains that he got no say in making of new series he didn't propose. Heck, he didn't even have any say but to conform and budge and make a new series when the he was asked to make V Gundam, which he really want to have nothing to do with Gundam any more.

That's inaccurate on a couple different levels.

Firstly, Bandai's ownership of the Gundam franchise comes as a result of having acquired the companies that hold the copyrights. They were not involved in the development or production of the original series. The first production they got involved with as a toy partner was Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, and they did not join the actual production committee until the War in the Pocket OVA four years later. They didn't get actual control over it until they acquired Sunrise in 1994. However, because ownership of the first several Gundam titles was divided between Sunrise and its coproducer Sotsu Agency, Bandai did not have full control over the UC and the franchise until they acquired Sotsu in 2020.

Secondly, even after acquiring Sunrise in 1994 and Sotsu in 2020, Bandai Namco Holdings continues to register the copyrights on new Gundam works through those two subsidiary companies. For the purposes of copyright and ownership, Sunrise and Sotsu are the owners of Gundam, not Bandai. Bandai just owns Sunrise and now Sotsu. If you pay attention, you'll note this is true for even the newest Gundam works like The Witch from Mercury. All that's changed is that Sunrise is now credited under its new name Bandai Namco Filmworks. Sunrise, not Bandai, own the timelines in the most stringently literal, demonstrable, legally enforceable sense.

Third and lastly, it's been well established by Sunrise/BNF that Sunrise/BNF are the ones in creative control of the franchise. They're the ones developing new series concepts and producing them. Their parent company, Bandai Namco Holdings, is more or less just the production committee deciding which shows get funded and which don't.

Not really?
For any Sunrise/Bandai employees, they get paid for any work they do at the company and the company will give them work no matter if it's Gundam or not. Check the studios' and you will see that they make anime other than Gundam as well.

Aaaaand you've missed the point completely.

Yes, the rank and file Sunrise employees are salaried and hourly flacks like you and me. What we're talking about here is the directors and writers. The people with actual sway in the creative process. They're not JUST working for a paycheck. I guarantee you that the ones who are piloting new works are hoping that those new works will take off and launch them to a prestigious position as Gundam did for Yoshiyuki Tomino. It's not just about salary. These folks can make a fair amount of money from convention appearances, interviews, and the like. Notoriety can be monetized in a thousand small ways from direct merchandising (like artist artbooks) to more clout in the industry that could get them greater freedom with future works, secure better pay, better financial backing, etc.

I have no idea where you get the idea Sunrise own the franchise and have any say about making its continuum or not, they are just paid staff like any of the others you try to down play as just merchandise.

It's... it's literally right there in the copyright notice on every Gundam series, manga, book, and toy. It's in the copyright and trademark registrations filed with Japan's intellectual property office. It's plastered on each and every official website.

Now, I understand that intellectual property law is confusing as hell. It's not entirely wrong to say that Bandai owns the franchise. It's just an oversimplification. Bandai does not own the franchise directly, they own the companies that own the franchise. The actual, legal ownership and control of the franchise rests with Sotsu and Sunrise/Bandai Namco FIlmworks as it has since 1979 and that fact is recorded in every intellectual property filing which the franchise has.

Just in case you doubt it, let's take a look at the promotional material for some forthcoming Gunpla from G-Witch.
https://www.hlj.com/productimages/ban/bans65313_8.jpg <- Demi Barding
https://www.hlj.com/productimages/ban/bans65112_7.jpg <- Heindree Sturm
https://www.hlj.com/productimages/ban/bans65024_6.jpg <- Gundam Schwarzette
https://www.hlj.com/productimages/ban/bans64253_7.jpg <- Unnamed new Mobile Suit

Now look at the copyright notice in the bottom right of each. It's not ©Bandai, it's ©SOTSU SUNRISE MBS.

[MythSearcher]

No, the intended effects are NOT the same as making an anime. Not even close. We're talking about relatively low-volume print media that is marketed directly to fans. It has nowhere near the market penetration of an anime series carried by a major network. Not only that, there's no effort made whatsoever to reconcile that material with the animated material. It's not referenced at all by animated works or official coverage of those animated works. It might as well not exist for all the impact it has on the actual setting and timeline.

Not really, SEED got stuff from the manga shown on screen.
UC got animated from a novel.

Also, OVA series are pretty much also marketed directly to fans, only rich fans will pay for the premium.

That's inaccurate on a couple different levels.

Firstly, Bandai's ownership of the Gundam franchise comes as a result of having acquired the companies that hold the copyrights. They were not involved in the development or production of the original series. The first production they got involved with as a toy partner was Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, and they did not join the actual production committee until the War in the Pocket OVA four years later. They didn't get actual control over it until they acquired Sunrise in 1994. However, because ownership of the first several Gundam titles was divided between Sunrise and its coproducer Sotsu Agency, Bandai did not have full control over the UC and the franchise until they acquired Sotsu in 2020.

They are already involved during the movies of FG.
And also Bandai was the third stock holder of Sotsu for pretty long before 2020.
Yes, they don't have full control but Sunrise was never the controller because they are just paid to do their job and does not own the rights.

Secondly, even after acquiring Sunrise in 1994 and Sotsu in 2020, Bandai Namco Holdings continues to register the copyrights on new Gundam works through those two subsidiary companies. For the purposes of copyright and ownership, Sunrise and Sotsu are the owners of Gundam, not Bandai. Bandai just owns Sunrise and now Sotsu. If you pay attention, you'll note this is true for even the newest Gundam works like The Witch from Mercury. All that's changed is that Sunrise is now credited under its new name Bandai Namco Filmworks. Sunrise, not Bandai, own the timelines in the most stringently literal, demonstrable, legally enforceable sense.

And how is that legally enforceable sense? They are never the entity to sue others for copyright infringement. Sotsu does, and Bandai also sued Chinese companies trying to make Gunpla(including those that do not copy their kits but make their own)

Third and lastly, it's been well established by Sunrise/BNF that Sunrise/BNF are the ones in creative control of the franchise. They're the ones developing new series concepts and producing them. Their parent company, Bandai Namco Holdings, is more or less just the production committee deciding which shows get funded and which don't.

That because you refuse to accept manga and novel are creative control as well.
You are cherrypicking data to try to prove your point, which is not convincing at all.
"Things I don't like are not creative and just merchandise" yada yada yada.

No, just no.

Aaaaand you've missed the point completely.

Yes, the rank and file Sunrise employees are salaried and hourly flacks like you and me. What we're talking about here is the directors and writers. The people with actual sway in the creative process. They're not JUST working for a paycheck. I guarantee you that the ones who are piloting new works are hoping that those new works will take off and launch them to a prestigious position as Gundam did for Yoshiyuki Tomino. It's not just about salary. These folks can make a fair amount of money from convention appearances, interviews, and the like. Notoriety can be monetized in a thousand small ways from direct merchandising (like artist artbooks) to more clout in the industry that could get them greater freedom with future works, secure better pay, better financial backing, etc.

Yeah, and mangaka aren't JUST working for a paycheck either.
Trying to down play other creators and anime is gold, anime is the best, anime is the only thing that matters, isn't convincing.

It's... it's literally right there in the copyright notice on every Gundam series, manga, book, and toy. It's in the copyright and trademark registrations filed with Japan's intellectual property office. It's plastered on each and every official website.

Now, I understand that intellectual property law is confusing as hell. It's not entirely wrong to say that Bandai owns the franchise. It's just an oversimplification. Bandai does not own the franchise directly, they own the companies that own the franchise. The actual, legal ownership and control of the franchise rests with Sotsu and Sunrise/Bandai Namco FIlmworks as it has since 1979 and that fact is recorded in every intellectual property filing which the franchise has.

Just in case you doubt it, let's take a look at the promotional material for some forthcoming Gunpla from G-Witch.
https://www.hlj.com/productimages/ban/bans65313_8.jpg <- Demi Barding
https://www.hlj.com/productimages/ban/bans65112_7.jpg <- Heindree Sturm
https://www.hlj.com/productimages/ban/bans65024_6.jpg <- Gundam Schwarzette
https://www.hlj.com/productimages/ban/bans64253_7.jpg <- Unnamed new Mobile Suit

Now look at the copyright notice in the bottom right of each. It's not ©Bandai, it's ©SOTSU SUNRISE MBS.

The fact still remains Bandai is the owner and payer of the franchise and actually working in making more creative works than Sunrise can handle. You can call them merchandise but that just your very skewed opinion on the subject about only anime matters.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not really, SEED got stuff from the manga shown on screen.

Such as? I'm not talking about some rando who later appears in a comic... I'm talking about either an actual reference to events exclusively in a comic, etc.

UC got animated from a novel.

They adapted a light novel... the adaptation is what's canon, not the novel.

They are already involved during the movies of FG.

It's clearly noted in accounts of the franchise's origin that Bandai did not become involved as a sponsor until Zeta Gundam. Their first flirtation with sponsoring Sunrise's productions was Xabungle. They joined that production as a junior partner to Clover Co. Ltd., the main sponsor of Sunrise's robot anime since 1977's Zambot 3. The commercial failure of Xabungle eventually resulted in Clover declaring bankruptcy in the middle of production of Aura Battler Dunbine. It was that bankruptcy and the subsequent liquidation of Clover Co. Ltd.'s assets that enabled Bandai to take over as the sponsor of Gundam. Clover's primary creditor, Takara Co., decided against taking ownership of Clover Co.'s licensing portfolio as partial repayment for debts owed to them during the liquidation proceedings. This left the rights back in Sunrise's hands and it subsequently licensed them to Bandai as the new primary sponsor. Sunrise attached a number of conditions to Bandai's license, including that Bandai's sponsorship of new Sunrise anime would include an obligation to sponsor a new Gundam series (the series that became breakout hit Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam).

Yes, they don't have full control but Sunrise was never the controller because they are just paid to do their job and does not own the rights.

Demonstrably false. The copyright notices on literally every Gundam product and publication clearly state that Sunrise and Sotsu are coowners of Gundam... as does every copyright and trademark filing on the whole of the franchise. If it's a choice between what you claim and what the Japanese government has in literal black-and-white in the copyright and trademark registrations, it's obvious that you are incorrect.

And how is that legally enforceable sense? They are never the entity to sue others for copyright infringement. Sotsu does, and Bandai also sued Chinese companies trying to make Gunpla(including those that do not copy their kits but make their own)

Sunrise and Sotsu are the registered copyright owners of all things Gundam. That is literally what that means. They are the owners of Gundam, creatively and legally. It is, in the eyes of the law, their property.

Sunrise and Sotsu file jointly as co-complainants in lawsuits over Gundam because they jointly own the property. Bandai Namco Holdings subsidiary Bandai Spirits are the ones to file lawsuits over most categories of bootleg merchandise like gunpla because they are the exclusive worldwide licensee to the merchandising rights for those categories of Gundam merchandise. Bandai became the merchandising license in 1984 when they took over for Clover as Sunrise's sponsor, and that license has expanded with each new series because Sunrise and Bandai Spirits have the same parent company and there's therefore no competition for that license. Bandai suing over bootleg merch does not mean Bandai is in control of the franchise. It means that they, not Sunrise, are the injured party in the litigation because those bootleggers are violating Bandai Spirits' exclusive right-under-license to produce Gundam plamodels.

That because you refuse to accept manga and novel are creative control as well.

It's merchandise... but you're also missing an important detail there too.

Those manga, novels, etc. may be published by Bandai's publishing group... but their credits clearly indicate they are produced under the creative supervision of Sunrise and the copyright notice clearly indicates that the Gundam franchise is copyrighted property of Sotsu and Sunrise.

You are cherrypicking data to try to prove your point, which is not convincing at all.

No, I am not cherrypicking at all. I just have a better understanding of the division of control/responsibility/ownership because of my better understanding of how intellectual property law works.

As I have said, you're working from an oversimplified understanding of the situation. It's a completely understandable situation, given that most folks really don't want to think about the complexities involved.

Yeah, and mangaka aren't JUST working for a paycheck either.
Trying to down play other creators and anime is gold, anime is the best, anime is the only thing that matters, isn't convincing.

TBH, the writers of the licensed manga kind of ARE just working for a paycheck.

They don't have creative control over the work they're producing because they're subject to the creative supervision of Sunrise and the approval of the publisher (usually Bandai's publishing group). Working on a licensed work like that - even if it's wildly successful - doesn't come with the same prestige as being the creator of a successful original work.

The fact still remains Bandai is the owner and payer of the franchise and actually working in making more creative works than Sunrise can handle.

Half right. As I've noted, Bandai is (indirectly) the owner and (directly) the financer of the franchise... Bandai Namco Holdings serves as the de facto production committee for new Gundam works, but the actual creative control and copyright ownership is managed via Sunrise and Sotsu as the copyright and trademark filings for EVERY Gundam work from 1979 to today clearly and unambiguously indicate.

You can call them merchandise but that just your very skewed opinion on the subject about only anime matters.

I can call them merchandise because that is what they are. Legally and creatively. This is not an opinion thing, this is a matter of an actual production classification and the category of licensing that permits them to be created in the first place. Do they matter less? Explicitly and objectively yes, because they actually have less legal standing than the original animated work BECAUSE the original was a film work. (IP law is weird.)

[Mafty]

I'm not sure whether this qualifies as an event reference or not, but there is the Forbidden Vortex's appearance at the battle of Heavens Base in Seed Destiny: which is the successor to several Aquatic suits piloted by Astray character Jane Houston, also this appears in the regular version of the series, not just something added in the special edition.

Also who exactly is in charge of which Gundam Manga gets published? Do the writers pitch an idea? Or are they given an assignment by Sunrise? When you look through the mass amount of Gundam manga, some ended up being quite obscure, and often there didn't seem to be any merchandising.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not sure whether this qualifies as an event reference or not, but there is the Forbidden Vortex's appearance at the battle of Heavens Base in Seed Destiny: which is the successor to several Aquatic suits piloted by Astray character Jane Houston, also this appears in the regular version of the series, not just something added in the special edition.

Those were MSV designs before they appeared in Astray... and in all likelihood the Forbidden Vortex predates its MSV predecessors. So, "probably not". I'm having trouble finding exact dates on the line art from the Forbidden Vortex.

Also who exactly is in charge of which Gundam Manga gets published? Do the writers pitch an idea? Or are they given an assignment by Sunrise? When you look through the mass amount of Gundam manga, some ended up being quite obscure, and often there didn't seem to be any merchandising.

Overall? Someone - we know not who - in a position of authority in Sunrise's license management team.

Based on creator interviews, there seem to be several different approaches used... most of which are coordinated directly or indirectly by Sunrise itself. Adaptations of animated works seem to be coordinated by Sunrise itself most, if not all, of the time. They select a publisher and then in partnership with that publisher they select a writer, and that writer is then contracted to write the book or manga. For multimedia projects which span multiple publications or media formats, Sunrise seems to prefer to hire a coordinator or coordinating studio who then orchestrates the efforts of multiple writers and illustrators for works to run in multiple magazines or books. Tomohiro Chiba's Studio Orphee seems to be a very popular choice for this work, having coordinated Astray and the Gundam 00 manga titles. The few that aren't, for which the development process is documented well, are instigated by Bandai as essentially glorified gunpla commercials (e.g. Gundam Sentinel).

[yugioh54]

Getting back to Zeta, I thought it was alright, not as great as everyone claims, and this thread wasn't about how successful Zeta is or even the one off aspect of gundam. Your pretty much treating UC like it's the marvel universe, UC has some masterpieces of storytelling and some of it's best stuff isn't even by Tomino and the novel version of CCA sounds way more interesting then the actual movie version. The idea of the one offs being made for teenagers, I understand the point your making. I also know that Unicorn and YAS Gundam productions has began a resurgence of UC gundam. But Sunrise has never really capitalized on there other productions into franchises, they even attempted Code Geass to be there next cashcow. I think CE would have more ground if it had a chance. I could see it lasting, do I think it could replace UC, not really but I do feel one day Sunrise with pull the plug on it to keep it in stasis and that they'd have to find a new cash cow. Fukuda plays it out as he worked on Cyber Formula and Gear Fighter, he always has an idea for a sequel to all the shows he directed

[Mafty]

That is true, Sunrise really never made another mecha franchise outside of Gundam (at least real robot wise, they did have the Brave super robot series in the 90s), so Gundam is basically their mecha flagship.

To be fair they don't really need too many other mecha franchises; because the Alternative Universe simply means that if they want to try something new story wise, they just keep the Gundam name and put the story in an AU.

The cases where this wouldn't work are when the stories universe is far too different to put in an AU (Layzner with aliens and an alternative 90s, Escaflowne with it's Fantasy Isekai, Code Geass with its mystical powers, Valvrave with it's Space Vampire Mecha(that was an odd show), Cross Ange with it's alternative world mysticism, and Buddy Complex with its time travel). I'm not say these started as Gundam ideas, just that there is a reason why Sunrise makes other mech shows.

Still I agree that some of the AU's could actually make decent spinoffs, but that may make the timeline of the series too confusing.

[Seto Kaiba]

Getting back to Zeta, I thought it was alright, not as great as everyone claims, and this thread wasn't about how successful Zeta is or even the one off aspect of gundam.

Now that's an incredibly disingenuous statement, given that you created this thread to specifically to ask the community if Zeta Gundam was overrated in an asinine attempt to whine about CE was hard-done-by.

By any objective standard of measure, the answer is a clear, concise, and utterly unambiguous "No". Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam is one of the most successful, celebrated, and influential titles not just in Gundam as a franchise but in the mecha anime genre as a whole. It can reasonably be credited as the actual foundational work that created the Gundam franchise and its narrative formula has been the template for almost every subsequent Gundam title... including the Cosmic Era you're bashing it to "defend". It has some of the highest viewership numbers the franchise has ever gotten, bettered only by reruns of the original Mobile Suit Gundam series. Its designs are some of the most iconic and imitated ones the franchise has ever produced.

Your pretty much treating UC like it's the marvel universe, UC has some masterpieces of storytelling and some of it's best stuff isn't even by Tomino and the novel version of CCA sounds way more interesting then the actual movie version.

To be brutally frank, it pretty much IS. The Universal Century timeline is the foundation of the Gundam franchise as a whole, Sunrise's single most profitable property, and so beloved that the Japanese government recognizes it as a culturally significant work of art. It is Gundam. For all their merits or lack thereof, the AU titles are basically an afterthought next to it.

The idea of the one offs being made for teenagers, I understand the point your making.

Most of Gundam is made for high schoolers and younger college students as an intended audience.

The fact I related WRT Gundam SEED is that it was made for an audience younger than that. Middle school-aged 'tweens and grade schoolers.

I also know that Unicorn and YAS Gundam productions has began a resurgence of UC gundam.

Not a resurgence, as it never really goes away. Just a trend of adapting the more celebrated light novels set in the UC era.

But Sunrise has never really capitalized on there other productions into franchises, they even attempted Code Geass to be there next cashcow. I think CE would have more ground if it had a chance. I could see it lasting, do I think it could replace UC, [...]

... and you would be wrong. Remember, Sunrise is not developing the AUs with any intention of turning them into long-running properties like the Universal Century. They're made with the specific purpose of being self-contained, stand-alone stories in a similar vein to the UC while remaining accessible and unintimidating to new viewers. When one of them - Gundam SEED - did take off and got viewership numbers far above what was expected they immediately green-lit a sequel and gave it the opportunity to run as far as it could. It got its chance to become a long-running timeline and it almost immediately proved the prior success was a fluke when Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny landed as a mediocre offering that performed less than half as well as its predecessor.

If SEED Destiny had been able to perform at the same high level as SEED, it almost certainly would have become a second long-running timeline. But it wasn't, so it didn't. Fukuda had the chance, and he blew it.

[yugioh54]

Zeta just aged poorly compared to the original mobile suit gundam beyond the cool mechs it had and the original character designer for the OG didn't work on all the Zeta designs so there's something lacking. I actual think Destiny was an ensemble show rotating between Kira, Athrun and Shinn perspective, it just wasn't good at it. Kira was always the star because he was the Ultimate Coordinator. The show was poor in explaining how Shinn has SEED mode yet is treated as a pawn by the end. Athrun was the only middle ground. What killed Destiny story wise was the destiny plan and chairman story arc, After Shinn beats the freedom, it's pretty much downhill for Shinn's character except the fights with Athrun

[Seto Kaiba]

Zeta just aged poorly compared [...]

... and your basis for this claim is what? You're entitled to your opinion, but please remember that your opinion does not dictate reality... and, in this case, is pretty much completely at odds with reality.

Far from "aging poorly", Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam remains one of the most celebrated and beloved installments in the franchise to this day. It has more appearances in secondary media than almost any other series in the franchise (being practically mandatory for Super Robot Wars as well as having many games of its own), three episodes of Gundam EVOLVE, many MANY gunpla, and many derivative designs based on the titular Zeta Gundam and other units from the series appearing in later works. It's got a statue in Okayama prefecture too.

[...] and the original character designer for the OG didn't work on all the Zeta designs so there's something lacking.

... yes he did. Yoshikazu Yasuhiko did the character designs for both the original Mobile Suit Gundam and Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam.

You might be thinking of Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ, which had Hiroyuki Kitazume as its lead character designer. And TBH don't be criticizing another show's character designs if you're seriously defending CE. 80-90% of Hisashi Hirai's character designs look exactly the goddamn same except for their hair.

[AceWhatever]

I THINK he's actually referring to the mecha designs and not the character designs in that last sentence because otherwise his criticism doesn't make a lick of sense. XD

[yugioh54]

Yoshikazu Yasuhiko never made anything for Zeta gundam like Gundam The Origin, Destiny wasn't a great sequel either, overall your arguing Zeta is more celebrated.

[Seto Kaiba]

I THINK he's actually referring to the mecha designs and not the character designs in that last sentence because otherwise his criticism doesn't make a lick of sense. XD

Based on his most recent post, I don't think that hypothesis holds up... which is a shame. A simple linguistic mistake is a lot easier to deal with than willful ignorance.

Yoshikazu Yasuhiko never made anything for Zeta gundam like Gundam The Origin, [...]

That's... completely incorrect. It's such an easily verifiable point that Yoshikazu Yasuhiko was the character designer for Mobile Suit Gundam, Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, Mobile Suit Gundam F91, Mobile Suit Gundam THE ORIGIN, and the Cucuruz Doan's Island "movie". Hell, there is an entire section in the Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam Memorial Box's booklet devoted to Yoshikazu Yasuhiko's development of the character designs for Zeta Gundam's cast complete with his commentary on each character's draft design.

Destiny wasn't a great sequel either, overall your arguing Zeta is more celebrated.

I'm pointing out that based on all objective evidence, Zeta is not overrated the way you're claiming... and you're making a lot of baseless or downright false claims here like the above.

[DragoMaster009]

For my two cents on the subject, I'd say that the artwork for the original UC anime (MSG, Zeta, ZZ, CCA, F91, and Victory) hasn't exactly aged gracefully, and in retrospect (for the actual anime and not the two films) they could've done a little better in the plot department and tidied it up some more (though there are times I think the compilation films for both MSG and Zeta went a little too far in that regard).

As for the CE timeline, while it may have a lot of fans on a personal level the only things I like about it were the mecha and the music. Everything else can take a long walk off a short pier.

[yugioh54]

I thought the first 13 episodes of SEED were boring on a first watch but it's turned into a great foundation for the rest of the series.

Establishing Kira and Athrun
Foreshadowing Orb and Cagalli in the FIRST episode
Introducing Flay and her comtempt for Coordinators
Introducing Lacus as the 2nd coordinator the crew meets
Giving Yzak his scar and establishing him as the unlikeable
The Fling Between Kira and Flay
When they reach artemis, there treated poorly despite being earth alliance

ALL of this was used in the Desert arc forward to establish the relationships of all the characters,

[MythSearcher]

Based on creator interviews, there seem to be several different approaches used... most of which are coordinated directly or indirectly by Sunrise itself. Adaptations of animated works seem to be coordinated by Sunrise itself most, if not all, of the time. They select a publisher and then in partnership with that publisher they select a writer, and that writer is then contracted to write the book or manga. For multimedia projects which span multiple publications or media formats, Sunrise seems to prefer to hire a coordinator or coordinating studio who then orchestrates the efforts of multiple writers and illustrators for works to run in multiple magazines or books. Tomohiro Chiba's Studio Orphee seems to be a very popular choice for this work, having coordinated Astray and the Gundam 00 manga titles. The few that aren't, for which the development process is documented well, are instigated by Bandai as essentially glorified gunpla commercials (e.g. Gundam Sentinel).

And if Sunrise made it it's creativity, any other organisation or person making it are merchandise.
Yeah, you are completely biased in this topic.

Tagging the Sunrise Sotsu for copyright purposes doesn't mean they are involved, Sunrise is an anime studio, they don't manage copyright and it is the job of Sotsu, and of course they have nothing to do with making manga nor writing novels.
Taking in an application of copyright and approving it doesn't mean they are involved in the creation, management nor controlling the plot of it.
But I don't think you will accept this at all because anything not anime is not worth your time, and I know I will just receive a negative reply from you. Yeah, nothing other than anime is worth it, nothing is good other than anime, I know, I know. I wonder if you even ever read those stories.

That is true, Sunrise really never made another mecha franchise outside of Gundam (at least real robot wise, they did have the Brave super robot series in the 90s), so Gundam is basically their mecha flagship.

To be fair they don't really need too many other mecha franchises; because the Alternative Universe simply means that if they want to try something new story wise, they just keep the Gundam name and put the story in an AU.

Real Robot series:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armored_Trooper_Votoms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patlabor

Super robot series:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldran_series
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashin_Hero_Wataru
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%C5%8D_ ... %AB_Knight

The last one didn't last long but at least got 2 OVAs.

[Seto Kaiba]

And if Sunrise made it it's creativity, any other organisation or person making it are merchandise.

No, even Sunrise makes works that are unambiguously categorized as merchandise. This is not an arbitrary distinction either, it's a specific legal classification based on the type of media of the original and derivative work.

(In fact, their own official setting policy very clearly makes ALL non-animated works non-canonical by default.)

Tagging the Sunrise Sotsu for copyright purposes doesn't mean they are involved, Sunrise is an anime studio, they don't manage copyright and it is the job of Sotsu, and of course they have nothing to do with making manga nor writing novels.

According to Sunrise's own representatives, you are 100% wrong. Development of licensed works is overseen/supervised by the Sunrise Planning and Development Group (a committee of Sunrise's producers) and that body is also explicitly stated to be responsible for issuing publication permission for licensed works. We have this fact from the former head of that very group, Koichi Inoue.

Also, you're not at all familiar with how intellectual property law works in general... never mind in Japan... are you? The only parties who can apply for intellectual property protections (copyrights, trademarks, etc.) are the authors of those works (either direct or via work-for-hire) and those parties to whom they have delegated part or all of their rights via license. We know for a fact, because we have the registrations, that the owners of the copyrights and trademarks on Gundam's many works are Sunrise and Sotsu. We also have this confirmed many times over via the credits of every Gundam anime, book, manga, etc. that's come out. This is not any mystery or a point in contention. It is a simple fact.

But I don't think you will accept this at all because anything not anime is not worth your time, and I know I will just receive a negative reply from you. Yeah, nothing other than anime is worth it, nothing is good other than anime, I know, I know. I wonder if you even ever read those stories.

Be careful with that straw man, they are prone to gather mold and are terribly flammable at the best of times.

In case your memory is a bit fuzzy, you will find I have read and referenced many manga, light novels, etc. for many properties here including Gundam. I am simply acknowledging the legal status of that material and Sunrise's own policy concerning its (lack of) canonicity. If that bothers you, I apologize. I am not good at "sugarcoating it".

[yugioh54]

Not really?
For any Sunrise/Bandai employees, they get paid for any work they do at the company and the company will give them work no matter if it's Gundam or not. Check the studios' and you will see that they make anime other than Gundam as well.
For part time staff, low paid animators don't get a say in the continuum anyway, you may get people like Fukuda that isn't really a Sunrise staff but he is pretty much one with very little to none other company experience and is some how in very good terms with a producer in Sunrise.

I have no idea where you get the idea Sunrise own the franchise and have any say about making its continuum or not, they are just paid staff like any of the others you try to down play as just merchandise.

Fukuda is most definitely a Sunrise employee, producer, working form the ground up from setting production he worked on storyboards for older properties like Gundam X and newer things like Gundam Build Divers and most of his resume is sunrise written all over it. He produced and directed a bunch of sunrise series that actually feel like sunrise series, Sunrise have not been focusing enough on there own original series for quite some time or they are manga/light novel adaptions

[Seto Kaiba]

Fukuda is most definitely a Sunrise employee, producer, working form the ground up from setting production [...]

In point of fact, he's been a Sunrise employee since 1979. He joined Sunrise right out of high school.

[...] he worked on storyboards for older properties like Gundam X and newer things like Gundam Build Divers and most of his resume is sunrise written all over it.

Gundam X is not one of the titles on his resume, and his involvement with Gundam prior to Gundam SEED was actually quite trivial and limited to storyboards for one episode of Victory Gundam and one set of promo storyboards for 08th MS Team. His resume is pretty much exclusively Sunrise works, though the title that was the making of his career was actually Cyber Formula.

He produced and directed a bunch of sunrise series that actually feel like sunrise series, Sunrise have not been focusing enough on there own original series for quite some time or they are manga/light novel adaptions

Sunrise is focused on what's profitable. They are a corporation and they're in the animation business to make money.

Put simply, it's very difficult to turn a profit on TV anime. The cost of development and production is such that, in the short to medium term, studios lose money on most of the vast majority of the shows they produce. It's almost invariably down to merchandising and streaming/home video licensing to determine whether a show will turn a profit or not. It can take months or even years for a show to break even. Many shows never do. That leaves most studios dependent on the occasional breakout hit in order to keep the lights on and offset the losses from other work while they collect a trickle of royalties from the more successful older properties. Sunrise focuses so much of its efforts on Gundam because Gundam makes bank in a way that few franchises in the entire industry do. Even more unusual, it's a steady earner. The reason Sunrise doesn't develop more material for most of its other original properties is simply that they weren't commercially successful enough to justify the investment. It's the same reason that Sunrise bailed on the Cosmic Era. They were motived to do more material by unexpectedly strong viewership and merchandise sales for Gundam SEED and dropped it after viewership declined and merchandise sales plummeted during Gundam SEED Destiny's run.