zeta gundam overrated?

[yugioh54]

Did anyone think zeta was overrated, besides some nice cameos, the series doesn't deliver like the original does at all, cliffhanger ending, a whiny protagonist, people say Destiny is the worst series but Zeta takes some of the same turns as Destiny did. I actually think ZZ is a little better as it's focused more on children like the original and the cameos from sayla, hayato play more of a role in the story.

[Seto Kaiba]

Did anyone think zeta was overrated, besides some nice cameos, the series doesn't deliver like the original does at all, cliffhanger ending, a whiny protagonist, people say Destiny is the worst series but Zeta takes some of the same turns as Destiny did. I actually think ZZ is a little better as it's focused more on children like the original and the cameos from sayla, hayato play more of a role in the story.

... surely you jest.

Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam was, and is, one of the most celebrated Gundam titles ever made. Its first-run viewership numbers are some of the highest the franchise has ever had, with the franchise needing almost twenty years of trying to reach similar highs with 2002's Mobile Suit Gundam SEED. The series format wasn't as popular with fans of the original back when it was new, but it created a LOT of new fans. When it came out on LD, sales of Zeta Gundam accounted for 20% of Bandai Visual's total sales. It's so beloved that it got a direct sequel with ratings nearly as high as it got and nods to it are practically mandatory in subsequent works.

The cliffhanger might seem annoying now... but at the time of broadcast it was a VERY short cliffhanger. Zeta Gundam was a weekly TV anime, and serialization of Gundam ZZ began a week after the 50th and final episode of Zeta Gundam aired: Zeta ended on February 22nd and ZZ started on March 1st.

As to the whiny protagonist... that's a Gundam standard franchise-wide. Kamille was no more or less whiny than Amuro before him, or most other UC Gundam protagonists that followed. The anomalies are the AU Gundam protagonists who are either stone cold sociopaths like Heero, Setsuna, and Mikazuki, weirdos like Suletta and Domon, or the occasional reasonably well-adjusted person like Bellri and Loran.

WRT Destiny... as SEED was basically a reimagining of the original series for a younger generation, you could say Destiny was a reimagining of Zeta that didn't do nearly as well.

[yugioh54]

seed destiny had problems after Stella died and Shinn beat Kira as both Lunamaria and Shinn had nowhere to go in there character arcs and Athurn repeated what he did in SEED and switched sides. I like the 2nd half of Destiny because of the character arcs like Meer, Rey,, Kira getting a new Freedom was okay, I loved that athrun got Justice back. As for sales I have no idea how well it did but the CE universe is still profitable merchandise and in Newtype magazine as it's continued to be popular despite how the story was received. Zeta had a similar feeling to me good first half, flawed second half, once Four died. ZZ gundam was actually not bad and gave Kamille a good epilogue despite it being considered the worst of the Tomino shows.

[Mafty]

Spoiler

It's interesting because as has been stated earlier Zeta Gundam has some story beats and character arcs that are similar to Destiny, though Destiny's handling of these may have gone too far. For instance four and Rosamia are more developed than Gates , who himself isn't exactly sympathetic, but is too minor a character for it to be too notable. In Destiny Stellar is treated as the only sympathetic member of the trio , despite them all having the same traumatic backstory(this was handled better in Stargazer). Stellar's rampage across Berlin is the same as Four's in New Hong Kong; however while Kamille is disturbed by the Psycho Gundam's actions, Shinn largely ignores the attack (which killed hundreds of terrified civilians including children), and focuses on Stellar (having sympathy for Stellar and trying to get her stop is one thing, but the way its presented creates kind of a dissonance).

Also the handling of the the Three Ships Alliance/ORB thing contrasts with the AEUG/Karaba in Zeta. While ZAFT and the EA are obviously in the wrong, the main characters become almost Mary Sue's who are right about absolutely everything. There's also the whole romance arc where about five women fall for Athrun, that really doesn't add anything to the story and seems more at home in something like Muv Luv ( I like Muv Luv and I feel they balanced the romance better for the most part)Granted Zeta and ZZ did have several woman become interested in Kamille and Juday, however it was still better developed and focused more on the characters reasons for the connection(Four and Kamille bonded over their issues, Rosamia say Kamille as a surrogate older brother, Kamille saw Emma as a mother figure, Fa and Kamille had the entire series to work out their relationship, Judau and Elle were childhood friends, Haman is intrigued by Judaus optimism, though Roux and Judau could've maybe used a bit more development , and Chara was a bit too goofy to understand.

Seed Destiny did start off well, however some of the story decisions were a bit unusual. Which is a shame because the premise and the greater CE verse is actually quite interesting. Though in this case the first SEED series handled it better as do many of the spin offs.

As for Zeta Gundam, it is an interesting story because it goes in such a different direction than the first series: at times the politics are a lot more front and center (particularly in the Earth Arcs) and the story focuses a bit more on the larger scale engagements between several big armies, rather than a small team against the enemy (not to say FG is bad, it's not, it just is neat to see the new direction the sequel series took).

ZZ gets a bit too goofy at times, though it does balance out with a generally likeable cast, as well as interesting story line and some pretty cool mech battles, it almost helped that for a tv Anime from the 80's , it has very detailed animation.

[yugioh54]

I still think zeta is a bit overrated but that's because later spinoffs improve on the formula and the original has unique and holds up better. even the zeta movies feel like an average gundam ending. Destiny bringing back Mu La Flaga after Fukuda changed his mind and changed the debris scene that had his helmet in the complication movie and hd remaster. Stuff like that is mixed as I think we needed more development on the earth forces, blue cosmos, and even what durandel was doing in SEED before he became chairman. Destiny has some threads that could be built for the movie, admittedly the second half is smoother in where it's going but totally shafts Shinn and the first half arrangement of the cast. If the story had been more kiras and athruns story, amuros cameos in zeta don't do it for me and then when he becomes the star again in CCA. I think most of the zeta cast were weaker then the original cast.

[Mafty]

That's fine, Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Personally I like both Zeta and ZZ in their own ways. Zeta sets out to do something different from FG, and it succeeds in that

Spoiler

When people first saw the sequel in 85 would they have expected the White Base crew would turn against the Federation(for entirely justified reasons however, or that the Federation would have gotten so despicable, they definitely had corrupt and immoral issues in the original series, however Zeta takes it much farther)? And of course there would have been the biggest surprise, Amuro and Char fighting along side each other.

. Also the battle tactics are rather more reminiscent of series like Macross, Dougram, and Votoms than of the first series(not that the first series didn't change things up , it did, but you could see the evolution by Zeta). Instead of the smaller team on the White Base against large scale enemies, we have more of a battle between the fairly evenly matched(in terms of armaments, if not technology) factions. Most battles consists of the main characters custom suits, plus an array of mass produced units on both sides. This plus the larger cast and the show being more willing to kill of characters on both sides with little warning, adds a bit more stakes to how every battle will turn out. Also the show largely forgoes the monster of the week format. There are plenty of mecha to go around; but they often get more time to actually work than just appearing in one episode, likewise most of the units are piloted by reoccurring characters instead of someone who just shows up once.

Granted the animation didn't age as well, and parts of the story got a bit too bleak

Spoiler

The horrors of war in 30 Banchi, the characters myriad of personal issues, and the harsh political issues (everyone having to play nice with the ruthless Haman) work well in the story, Everyone punching each other every five minutes? not so much.

Also there were some issues with the character writing

Spoiler

In several cases some of the relationships are odd or poorly explained( I.e., Beltrochika's random issues, that come from nowhere and disappear rather quickly, though the show at least acknowledges it, or could have been handled better (let's just say Reccoa's plotline in the second half of the series and leave it at that).

ZZ is a bit more of Super Robot themed in terms of having the Gundam team against the Neo Zeon, though interestingly despite the amount of new mechs for Neo Zeon, there are relatively few new MS designs for the AEUG (its the ZZ and that's it). The lighter tone can go a bit far at times ( Livestock attacking the Argama crew, school kids taunting Neo Zeon, the whole Moon Moon thing, and the fact several cool designs like the Zessa, R-Jarga, and Hamma Hamma only really get used in silly battles). Also I agree with Chris's review in that the series climax should have actually started much earlier.

However the story and worldbuilding are quite interesting; the animation budget gets better, and the characters on both sides are fairly well developed for the most part (Glemmy could have been handled better characters wise, and the character August has motivations that seem to come from nowhere).

[Seto Kaiba]

I still think zeta is a bit overrated but that's because later spinoffs improve on the formula and the original has unique and holds up better. even the zeta movies feel like an average gundam ending. [...]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I honestly don't think the importance and impact of Zeta Gundam can be overstated given that it was Zeta Gundam, more than the original series, that established many of the Gundam franchise's formulas, conventions and tropes by taking what was in the original series and built on it while also presenting it in a far more polished and professional manner.

To say that the Zeta movies feel like "an average Gundam ending" kind of ignores the reality of the situation. Zeta Gundam was the series that effectively set down what a Gundam story should be like. It was, and to a large extent still is, the model that conventional/traditional Gundam stories follow. It doesn't stand out because it's what all those other shows you're comparing it to were imitating.

[DragoMaster009]

I still think zeta is a bit overrated but that's because later spinoffs improve on the formula and the original has unique and holds up better. even the zeta movies feel like an average gundam ending. Destiny bringing back Mu La Flaga after Fukuda changed his mind and changed the debris scene that had his helmet in the complication movie and hd remaster. Stuff like that is mixed as I think we needed more development on the earth forces, blue cosmos, and even what durandel was doing in SEED before he became chairman. Destiny has some threads that could be built for the movie, admittedly the second half is smoother in where it's going but totally shafts Shinn and the first half arrangement of the cast. If the story had been more kiras and athruns story, amuros cameos in zeta don't do it for me and then when he becomes the star again in CCA. I think most of the zeta cast were weaker then the original cast.

Uh. like I said before, you don't have to post the same thing multiple times. Just once is enough.

[yugioh54]

I just more CE, wasn't trying to bash Zeta, it has it's problems and isn't as good as the original in my eyes, it was successful but doesn't completely gel with the original. Even Destiny isn't my favorite thing, the stargazer ONA was great, Shinn attracted to someone from the earth alliance and it's hard to get a feel for his motives, For someone who forsaken ORB even though he might still feel ORB was a great place before his family died. Overall I think CE is a more marketable to new fans and is the only AU to really get a chance at a sequel along with 00, with AGE, IBO, not really filling that place and I haven't seen Mercury

[Seto Kaiba]

Overall I think CE is a more marketable to new fans and is the only AU to really get a chance at a sequel along with 00, with AGE, IBO, not really filling that place and I haven't seen Mercury

CE is, by design, a modernized and simplified version of the UC meant to appeal to a new generation of viewers and a younger demographic. That's all there is to it, really.

It's Diet UC meant to appeal to kids in elementary and junior high school where UC is normally aimed at a high school and up audience and to that end it takes a lot of pointers from Original Gundam and Zeta.

As an AU series, it's meant to be a brand ambassador to draw new fans into Gundam and eventually towards the UC which is the franchise's main profit center.

[yugioh54]

Not everyone likes everything tomino did on those shows, sure 0083, 8th ms team, stardust memory are great and peak UC gundam. Sure CE is by design a condensed UC but it has it's own voice and fukuda had a vision he's protective of, when the super wars changed the destiny story he was not happy. Wing for example had a big following and they made a sequel novels which negated endless waltz epilogue. CE having a third installment to see how far an AU can bring to the table. beyond just manga spinoffs. 00 is getting a third season too, it's also for new people. CE is underrated and trashed because of Destiny but it has it's own style of storytelling, that's not like UC gundam.

The AUs wouldn't be considered diet if it had more history and stories AGE attempted this but it didn't get enough time. LIke Marvel's Ultimate Universe, MCU and Marvel adventures are diet marvel. The Ultimate Universe stood out with it's cinematic storytelling but then 616 caught up to it. Young Peter, edgy avengers, what separated it later on was the history timeline of the marvel universe. I actually was a fan of Spiderman Loves Mary Jane because of the drama style storytelling NOT because it was an AU concept and it captured spidermans voice right and had a big canvas of story to tell that was not end of the world stuff but relationships, high school drama , through a fresh cast perspective, I think Ultimate Spiderman had that appeal but had the gritter villains and fights, decompressed storytelling which worked. Spectacular Spiderman cartoon uses the relationships and history of the characters
without sacrificing diversity, there's also a use of a loose timeline so it's very continuity heavy but has a central cast to ground it unlike it's successor Young Justice

here's a link
https://www.macleans.ca/culture/arts/co ... conundrum/

[Mafty]

I've found the CE spinoffs also help expand the world of CE a lot. We get to see a lot more characters, and a lot more Gundams in the spin off material; likewise Seed Destiny actually incorporates a wide range of different mech and multiple Gundams into it's main continuity(I.e. the Stargazer anime ONA with it's four different Gundams, Seed Destiny with 10 different Gundams), making it so there is less dissonance between the anime and manga spin offs.

There are also more manga spin offs from the Cosmic Era than any other AU( UC has at least 69 side stories that don't involve any anime characters, CE has 13 , Gundam Wing has 1, as does IBO and X, and 00 has 5, the other AU's don't have stories that focus on other characters); and the world goes beyond the main cast and conflicts to focusing on different regions and conflicts, and even going as far to explore Mars based colonization in the later Astray spinoffs. In CE like UC there really feels like there is more of a world beyond the main characters and their actions.

[yugioh54]

I like UC alot but it's not perfect, tominos not perfect, several of his non gundam series are confusing and even the spinoffs not done by him succeed in ways the main series don't. I like CE alot and unlike 00 or Wing, I agree that's how I felt about the AUs for awhile, there just for newbees but Gundam x had a following that continues to this day they made a manga epilogue in the special edition boxset. Wing was so popular that they had to negate the ending and make Frozen teardrop as well as Glory Of Losers, Episode Zero. SEED has that type of potienal, Destiny was not perfect but has all these different characters and components, I'd love to see the movie and even something beyond it to cement it more then just a gateway gundam. 00 is getting this without even trying. AGE wasn't fleshed out and needed an ova. IBO and tominos own Gundam Reconguista in G needed like 6 compilation movies to flesh out there stories after how poorly executed they were. I think SEED needs another shot as it is always popular in NEWTYPE magazine and japan

[Mafty]

True Seed had a lot of potential in its worldbuilding, which you can see in the side materials . I 've just recently got my copy of Stargazer, and you can see how the story develops differently. It focuses on new characters and expands on the Phantom Pain group from Destiny. Unlike a lot of other spin offs the more advanced tech makes more sense and lines up with what you see in Destiny (Though you end up wondering where they got the other three prototype units from , If the Strike , Duel and Buster had copies why weren't they used during the first war? If they were built after, why did the build copies of outdated units? At least the fact that the three Gundam's not being given to Sting, Stellar and Auel is explained by the fact their enhanced abilities better suited the new Alliance Gundams.) We also get to see new locations like South America and Central Asia which were never visited in the main CE Verse. Plus the characters get a surprising amount of depth given the limited screen time of the series(Particularly Sven). Hopefully the movie takes a few cues from Stargazer in it's production, though it's worth noting that the writers of Stargazer actually worked on Seed/Destiny, so I guess we'll see how it works out, That being said however, after the movie comes out it may be the last we see of the universe. Even as popular as Wing and 00 were , we never got any animated works post movie.

Back to Zeta, what's your thought's on AOZ? Does it expand the storyline in an interesting way? Or does it go off on a tangent? I read reviews that think both things happened. Then of course there's the questionably canon Gundam Sentinel, which is a more militaristic , real robot styled sequel to Zeta than ZZ was.

[yugioh54]

What's AOZ? It is disappointing Wing never got anything animated, 00 is said to get a 3rd season even the director confirmed it but it will take awhile and he is working on some other things as we wait for it. As for Zeta, I liked the earth stuff, the space stuff on the other hand beyond Haman Karn is not to my tastes, like I said before I didn't like that the OG crew got cameos including Char and excepted more from them, the romance with amuro and belchikta was just a sayla stand in . ZZ actually has them do more Hayato and even made Kamille more interesting by having him in a new status quo

[Mafty]

Advance Of Zeta is a spin off/prequel Manga series set around/during the Gryps War , it has several series (Flag of the Titans, Blue Wings of the AEUG, Dream of the Black Rabbit, etc.). The series follows a wide range of characters and their experiences before, during, and after the war. I don't know if it is available in English, or which countries it's been imported to.

According to an older article, Gundam 00 season is due out in 2027 (though that may change), which will be the 20th Anniversary for the series.

I read somewhere that originally Gundam ZZ was supposed to finish the Amuro/Char story line, however during pre production CCA was greenlit , so this was dropped. That would explain why we see Amuro and Char in the credits, but not the show itself( Plus there is a theory Glemmy took Char's place in the eventual storyline, which would honestly explain some of the more illogical parts of Glemmys story, like how his repeated failures earn him command of a ship, then work with the Newtype Labs).

Amuro and Beltrochika seems a bit like more of Tominos at times rather odd writing(in that a point is being made, but what that point is isn't exactly clear. I.e. Sciroccos true end game, the dysfunction between Sho's family in Dunbine, Amuro and Frau's true feelings for one another, Reccoa's issues, etc.) It does seem however like Amuro was just using Beltrochika as an excuse to avoid combat, whilst Beltrochika was caught up in an idealized hero worship, that being said Beltrochika's personality is all over the place, and again the point is somewhat obscure.

[yugioh54]

that's another thing CCA doesn't really work for me as an end to the amuro/char conflict, they just both go MIA ??? Sayla doesn't appear nor any of the important OG or Zeta characters, ZZ was actually better at wrapping up stuff from Zeta. CCA has a weird character regression in Char and the UC continues on without them I get it plus 2 gundam series that apparently aren't UC but takes place after that calendar

[Seto Kaiba]

Not everyone likes everything tomino did on those shows, sure 0083, 8th ms team, stardust memory are great and peak UC gundam.

The Universal Century doesn't need universal popularity... to the vast majority of the fandom, it represents "peak Gundam" as you put it.

Sure CE is by design a condensed UC but it has it's own voice and fukuda had a vision he's protective of, [...]

Not condensed. Watered down. It was a simplified take on the Universal Century intended for a younger viewer than the usual Gundam audience.

Wing for example had a big following and they made a sequel novels which negated endless waltz epilogue. CE having a third installment to see how far an AU can bring to the table. beyond just manga spinoffs. 00 is getting a third season too, it's also for new people. CE is underrated and trashed because of Destiny but it has it's own style of storytelling, that's not like UC gundam.

Yes, Sunrise licensed things like novels and manga to shake the existing fans of the AU who didn't make the jump to UC down for some more cash. That really doesn't mean they're entertaining those AUs as a serious alternative/competitor to the Universal Century. It's nostalgia bait for casual viewers. Whether those sequels will ever see the light of day remains to be seen. Not every project that gets announced comes to fruition, while even many of the ones that do don't always reach their end-state resembling what they started as. If there's truth to some of the remarks about G-Witch, it was originally planned that they would do a IBO spinoff before changing gears to an original story. Like this:

I read somewhere that originally Gundam ZZ was supposed to finish the Amuro/Char story line, however during pre production CCA was greenlit , so this was dropped. That would explain why we see Amuro and Char in the credits, but not the show itself( Plus there is a theory Glemmy took Char's place in the eventual storyline, which would honestly explain some of the more illogical parts of Glemmys story, like how his repeated failures earn him command of a ship, then work with the Newtype Labs).

WRT CE getting "underrated and trashed"... sure, Destiny's weak writing and unlikeable protagonist were a major part of it initially. Nowadays, it's more that its audience has grown up and now recognizes that it was very much a "For Kids" series where most Gundam titles are more like "young adult" media.

The AUs wouldn't be considered diet if it had more history and stories [...]

I didn't say all AUs were "diet", just CE. I said that because it was carefully and very much deliberately crafted to be a lighter and less substantial version of the UC. It's nothing to do with how much material there is, but with how CE was specifically crafted to be described as "Like UC, but...".

[yugioh54]

In a sense yes CE used UC as a jumping on point for ideas along with 8th MS Team but I still believe it has it's own style of writing, I still liked G and Wing, Destiny had problems because it felt like an ensemble show with switching viewpoints and Shinn wasn't a good vocal point as he was just an addition to the cast, because he was marketed as the new main character but SEED cast felt more like the real cast with the new characters thrown in plus it's weird how Shinn doesn't have a natural hating personality like SEED cast had. He just has a hatred for ORB and an affection for stella.. Destiny had weakness in it's writing but it's mainly because the SEED cast were more developed and it was a 2 year time jump so character relationships were nearly the same as in SEED and they were trying to create drama without making the main cast look bad. Plus Durandal was manipulating the whole cast throughtout the DESTINY which doesn't make them look good. After the freedom vs destiny battle, the show made Athrun the main character again because it was what worked in SEED but the Meer stuff was an example of tragedy of war and identity.

I agree UC is raw in it's approach to war and it's spinoffs like Thunderbolts, Hathways flash, Unicorn have a lot of space to explore the events that were hinted at in the main timeline. But so does SEED/DESTINY with the bloody valentine, junius seven drop, the morganrate project with the gundams, the corrupted earth alliance

The SEED series also sells model kits and has an extended popularity, time will tell UC has a bigger catalog and timeline, SEED does not until the movie comes out or if we'll see another series in CE considering the movie was cancelled at one point.
it's celebrating it's 20th anniversary with an artbox in shibuya. It just keeps generating merchandise. Other AUs don't get this much of a push except 00 and even then I'm not sure how much of that was because of the movie being successful

https://gundamnews.org/gundam-seed-20th ... ya-station

[Mafty]

Again I think this is twofold, the Cosmic Era has more episodes (either 100 or 96 depending on if you cut out the clip shows), and 13 manga's. Plus despite the main characters dominating in the main series, we do actually see other sides of the war and society, as well as other characters who accomplish things (The Astray Team, Serpent Tail, Edward, Jane, Barry, etc.), Compare this to something like AGE where basically the entire war revolves around the Asuno family. Plus the spin offs do actually expand the world and allow plot elements that aren't as tied to the UC era.

Storytelling and new audiences aside, the high sales are also probably due to the mecha designs themselves being well received. I've heard that in some cases , even some detractors of the CE verse, admit it has neat mech designs.