Core Fighter Power?

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Mafty
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Core Fighter Power?

So individually, how powerful would the Core Fighters be in battle? They seem way more powerful than the Saberfish and Tin Cod: and definitely outclassed the Dopp in battle, but how would they hold up in battle against regular MS?
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MythSearcher
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

Mafty wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:48 pm So individually, how powerful would the Core Fighters be in battle? They seem way more powerful than the Saberfish and Tin Cod: and definitely outclassed the Dopp in battle, but how would they hold up in battle against regular MS?
12000HP
(MG Manual given spec, likely inline with either Gundam Century or Rapport Deluxe specs for the MS because those were the only place with HP as output powers and MG manual otherwise seems to stick with metric/SI units, oh well, we use metric horsepower anyway)

I'd say they probably aren't very effective against MS because they don't have a lot of weapons on board, and without good guidance systems, the missiles on board aren't going to easily hit their targets. That is why they have the Core Booster equipped with beam cannons.

If used correctly and with good weapon systems, they can be very good against MS with their VTOL and Mach 4.8 specs.
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

Mafty wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:48 pm So individually, how powerful would the Core Fighters be in battle? They seem way more powerful than the Saberfish and Tin Cod: and definitely outclassed the Dopp in battle, but how would they hold up in battle against regular MS?
Based on Master Archive Mobile Suit, Core Fighters in general are rather poor combat aircraft and not at all a match for an enemy mobile suit.

The FF-X7 is noted to have exceptionally poor aerodynamic characteristics requiring an excessively sophisticated flight control system to remain in the air at all. The wing area and control surfaces are noted to be insufficient to produce the maneuverability expected from a combat aircraft, and it required assistance from verniers for attitude control. Its armaments are also too light to be effective against Mobile Suits and too limited to be of much use against aircraft. The four 30mm cannons are noted to have as little as 80 rounds apiece, which is not enough for more than the briefest engagement against an enemy aircraft and both the cannons and missiles are light, short-ranged weapons unlikely to be effective against a mobile suit. Its one saving grace is that Master Archive asserts it can be retrofitted to carry a larger, longer-ranged missile on each wingtip.

The FF-XII Core Fighter II used by the GP series is noted to be little better than the FF-X7. It's a bit more aerodynamic, but it's also noted that some design changes actually made it more susceptible to suffering drag-induced damage at high speeds (esp. to the beam saber mounts). It has four mounts for underwing pylons, making it more versatile than the FF-X7, but it's still not much of a fighter.

In practice, the Core Fighter is really not much of a fighter... it's a glorified escape pod with minimal defensive weaponry and heavy armor meant to ensure the Gundam's pilot, the extremely expensive main reactor, and the data from the learning computer make it out intact and at high speeds if someone should successfully destroy the Gundam. It's very good at running away, which makes it quite a good scout aircraft for visual recon in a Minovsky particle-saturated area, but despite the name it's not really intended to be a frontline combat aircraft.
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

IIRC, one "advantage" Core Fighter has over Saberfish is how its computer, designed to handle MS's weapon and gather all data, is far more powerful. None of the on-board weapons can take advantage of that however.

Supposely, Raven Sword is what Core Fighter would be if they want a better fighter.
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Mafty
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

It's interesting to see what the pre MS weaponry was actually like. If the EF converted construction mechs into the RB-79 Ball, then utilizing fighter jets would actually make a lot of sense. That may actually be why the whole Core Block thing was invented anyway; even with less power the Core Fighter still offers more protection to the escaping pilot than a cockpit pod actually would.

Admittedly the only time you really see the Core Fighters holding their own in combat is during Bandit Flower where they decimate the Dopps during a battle in Australia. If they were fighting against even the mass produced Zeon units, they probably wouldn't have fared as well.
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

Mafty wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:47 am It's interesting to see what the pre MS weaponry was actually like. If the EF converted construction mechs into the RB-79 Ball, then utilizing fighter jets would actually make a lot of sense. That may actually be why the whole Core Block thing was invented anyway; even with less power the Core Fighter still offers more protection to the escaping pilot than a cockpit pod actually would.
The original purpose of the Core Fighter was to preserve the learning computer that made the Gundam go... no sense losing all that valuable data or the equally valuable test pilot operating the Gundam. Of course, like so many things in Gundam, the Core Fighter proved to be too expensive for the Federation to mass produce them for the GM and they ended up indicative of a super prototype.

Mafty wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:47 am Admittedly the only time you really see the Core Fighters holding their own in combat is during Bandit Flower where they decimate the Dopps during a battle in Australia. If they were fighting against even the mass produced Zeon units, they probably wouldn't have fared as well.
Master Archive has a remark that could be taken as an explanation of that. Namely, that book indicates that the Federation received more Core Fighter units than they had Gundams because mass production kicked off shortly before the core block system was abandoned in the RGM-79. That left the Federation Forces with a few dozen astronomically expensive Core Fighter units that were otherwise useless.
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

Core Boosters were created to make up for the poor aircraft performance of the core fighter. While the Core Booster itself had good firepower to use against mobile suits with its mega particle cannons via long range support, it is still no match for mobile suits without support like other aircraft/spacecraft. In 8th MS team we see the Jet Core Booster which is a mass production model taking more of a bomber role and the Core Booster II interceptor type from MS Igloo which is more for air superiority combat against other aircraft.
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

IRL a VTOL craft with mach 4.8 max speed and beam weapons is going to own shell firing 18m giants that can only run at 160km/h though, no matter how well the fire control system on the MS-06 is, the AA clip is so small that it won't really make effective AA coverage.(especially with it's poor 3200m sensor range under combat density Minovsky particle influence.
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

MythSearcher wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:02 am IRL a VTOL craft with mach 4.8 max speed and beam weapons is going to own shell firing 18m giants that can only run at 160km/h though, no matter how well the fire control system on the MS-06 is, the AA clip is so small that it won't really make effective AA coverage.(especially with it's poor 3200m sensor range under combat density Minovsky particle influence.
Eh... not really, no.

First, that the Core Fighter has a top speed of Mach 4.8 is basically irrelevant because that's a cruising speed. That's how fast it can go when it's flying level in a straight line to get from one place to another as fast as possible. Modern fighters can engage at low supersonic airspeeds since they almost exclusively do so with radar-guided missiles, but even that puts a tremendous strain on the aircraft and pilots have to be very careful to avoid exceeding the stress limits of the airframe and especially the control surfaces. Using guns basically limits combat to the subsonic, for short ranged dogfights. The Core Fighter's not designed to maneuver at high supersonic speeds. If it tried air combat maneuvers at a speed like that, it'd lose the control surfaces or possibly the entire wing and tail when the torque of air resistance tore them clean off, leaving it a brick on its way to a fated close encounter with the ground.

Second, the Core Fighter's weapons are exclusively short-ranged. Those 30mm cannons have an effective range of about 1km with any accuracy and a maximum range of around 3km. Same story for the beam guns. By the time its close enough to reliably open fire on an enemy Mobile Suit it's been inside the sensor range of the Mobile Suit for a while. To engage a ground target at such short ranges, the fighter's going to have to be either in a dive at a high angle of attack or coming in low and slow, making it much easier for anti-aircraft fire to find its range and score a hit.

Third, the Core Fighter's weapons really aren't heavy enough to do significant damage to a Mobile Suit. Those 30mm cannons have too little ammo to chip their way through a MS's armor reliably and the beam guns on the later models are much lower wattage than the beam rifles that reliably damage or destroy Mobile Suits because they're beam sabers.

Fourth and lastly, if it COULD engage at Mach 4.8 with those weapons any attack would almost immediately end in a suicidal collision with the target, as getting into range would leave the terribly un-agile Core Fighter with about 0.6 seconds to fire AND effect a 90 degree-plus turn to avoid colliding with the target. Nobody's going to be terribly happy with wrecking a fighter exponentially more expensive than a Dopp or Tin Cod in a one-for-one kill against an enemy MS.
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Mafty
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

Makes sense really, that's probably why we only see them in Thunderbolt (which really does it's own thing anyway). Practicality and speed aside , it also comes down to cost. The Federation in particular often (and rather realistically) lacks the funds to constantly change and update their weaponry, particularly post OYW . It really is often either the enemy forces, or revel groups sometimes connected to the Federation that end up with more money to spend on prototypes (even this varies depending on the episode. Victory Gundam shows the League Militare pumping their meager resources into mobile suit developement, while only being able to build a tiny new ship, and mostly relying on older space crafts. However everyone trashes copious amounts of Victory Gundam replacement parts deliberately in battle, you'd think they'd run out after awhile).
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

Seto Kaiba wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:48 pm Eh... not really, no.

First, that the Core Fighter has a top speed of Mach 4.8 is basically irrelevant because that's a cruising speed. That's how fast it can go when it's flying level in a straight line to get from one place to another as fast as possible. Modern fighters can engage at low supersonic airspeeds since they almost exclusively do so with radar-guided missiles, but even that puts a tremendous strain on the aircraft and pilots have to be very careful to avoid exceeding the stress limits of the airframe and especially the control surfaces. Using guns basically limits combat to the subsonic, for short ranged dogfights. The Core Fighter's not designed to maneuver at high supersonic speeds. If it tried air combat maneuvers at a speed like that, it'd lose the control surfaces or possibly the entire wing and tail when the torque of air resistance tore them clean off, leaving it a brick on its way to a fated close encounter with the ground.

Second, the Core Fighter's weapons are exclusively short-ranged. Those 30mm cannons have an effective range of about 1km with any accuracy and a maximum range of around 3km. Same story for the beam guns. By the time its close enough to reliably open fire on an enemy Mobile Suit it's been inside the sensor range of the Mobile Suit for a while. To engage a ground target at such short ranges, the fighter's going to have to be either in a dive at a high angle of attack or coming in low and slow, making it much easier for anti-aircraft fire to find its range and score a hit.

Third, the Core Fighter's weapons really aren't heavy enough to do significant damage to a Mobile Suit. Those 30mm cannons have too little ammo to chip their way through a MS's armor reliably and the beam guns on the later models are much lower wattage than the beam rifles that reliably damage or destroy Mobile Suits because they're beam sabers.

Fourth and lastly, if it COULD engage at Mach 4.8 with those weapons any attack would almost immediately end in a suicidal collision with the target, as getting into range would leave the terribly un-agile Core Fighter with about 0.6 seconds to fire AND effect a 90 degree-plus turn to avoid colliding with the target. Nobody's going to be terribly happy with wrecking a fighter exponentially more expensive than a Dopp or Tin Cod in a one-for-one kill against an enemy MS.
That's why I am saying you need beam weapons for that matter.
The Core boosters don't have their own generator, so the Core fighter must have enough power to support the beam cannons.

MS are shown to be vulnerable to helicopters in 08MS team, a core fighter is basically a helicopter with much faster acceleration and top speed.
You don't need to engage at M4.8, but the ability to do so is going to make it much less likely to be shot down by Zeon MS's AA fire.

Essentially the Core fighter with a slight better weapon load out design is more like an A-10 able to manoeuvre like a helicopter and speed up to M4.8, with the MS using something of a tank gun with less than 20 AA rounds to shoot it down while being subjected to beam cannon fire
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

That's probably why later series incorporate MS that transform into planes or helicopters, (Like the Waverider mode of the Zeta Gundam, the transformation of the Bawoo, the Zolo helicopter units in Victory, etc). Also they largely get rid of the core fighter concept later on (with the exception of mainline Gundam units, which actually refine the concept), so it seems as though even in universe they realized the issue with this.

This is probably best show in Gundam Narrative; Where (SPOILER) Jona barely makes it out of the final battle alive, with the core fighter being immediately shot down and abandoned.
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 am That's why I am saying you need beam weapons for that matter.
The Core boosters don't have their own generator, so the Core fighter must have enough power to support the beam cannons.

MS are shown to be vulnerable to helicopters in 08MS team, a core fighter is basically a helicopter with much faster acceleration and top speed.
There is a universe of difference between a conventional aircraft capable of vertical takeoff and a helicopter. The two are not remotely comparable. A Core Fighter is not going to be capable of anything like the kind of low-altitude maneuverability a combat helicopter can achieve. It can barely fly like a plane, hovering with high levels of lateral mobility is right out.

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 am You don't need to engage at M4.8, but the ability to do so is going to make it much less likely to be shot down by Zeon MS's AA fire.
The Core Fighter doesn't have the ability to do so, as noted in my previous post. It can fly at Mach 4.8 in a straight line, but for reasons of its weapons short range and its own poor maneuverability any attempt to engage a target at Mach 4.8 would result in a messy and immediately fatal collision with the target.

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:05 am Essentially the Core fighter with a slight better weapon load out design is more like an A-10 able to manoeuvre like a helicopter and speed up to M4.8, with the MS using something of a tank gun with less than 20 AA rounds to shoot it down while being subjected to beam cannon fire
Putting aside the alleged helicopter-like maneuverability that the Core Fighter doesn't have and the top speed it can't use even a fraction of in combat because of its painfully short engagement range, it's doubtful the Core Fighter's weapons are comparable to the A-10's GAU-8/A cannon too since its small size and poor aerodynamic profile would make multiple 30mm cannons of that type even more disruptive to the Core Fighter than the GAU-8/A is to the A-10. It's far more likely their performance is more comparable to the smaller, less powerful 30mm guns meant for use on strike fighters like the GSh-6-30. They don't have the ammunition for the kind of sustained, high-powered firing the A-10 does, and they have enough trouble just flying straight and level without multiple high-powered 30mm cannons firing.
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Mafty
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

Again this may be why the Core Fighter is so rarely used on it's own (as has been discussed it's basically an escape craft, and some steps above a mere cockpit pod).

Thanks for the technical data; I really don't know anything about real world mechanics, but it makes sense their would be a lot of differentiation between widely different types of aircraft. To be fair though Gundam does not always follow real world mechanical logic. Aside from the square cube law (which I really don't understand) there's the fact the aircraft seem oddly durable in battle. Several times we see Core Fighters slammed to the ground(I think this happened at least once in ZZ) and neither the pilot nor the plane are damaged. Plus in Gundam SEED Cagalli's Skygrasper crash lands in the South Pacific and Cagalli leaves the cockpit open all night, above water, but in the waves. Yet the Skygrasper is apparently repaired and put back into battle very shortly after.

So what does everyone think of the Zolo? It's a mass produced unit that can transform into a helicopter. Does you think it works better in combat than the Core Fighter?
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

Seto Kaiba wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:06 pm
There is a universe of difference between a conventional aircraft capable of vertical takeoff and a helicopter. The two are not remotely comparable. A Core Fighter is not going to be capable of anything like the kind of low-altitude maneuverability a combat helicopter can achieve. It can barely fly like a plane, hovering with high levels of lateral mobility is right out.
Actually, the Core fighter was seen to be able to do much more in show.
It can barely fly like a plane because it is not really flying as a plane.
The thing is at least said to have standard performance against air and ground combat for a small fighter in the MG Manual, and the PG Manual even elaborated that and said it is very good as a fighter by itself.
Yes, it is weak as an aircraft and cannot fly through enemy territories by itself, but I doubt a lot of aircraft has that kind of ability other than some spy planes like U-2 and SR-71. That part is essentially talking about its short operational range as a light aircraft.

The Core Fighter doesn't have the ability to do so, as noted in my previous post. It can fly at Mach 4.8 in a straight line, but for reasons of its weapons short range and its own poor maneuverability any attempt to engage a target at Mach 4.8 would result in a messy and immediately fatal collision with the target.
That is why the premise of what I am saying is you need to change its weapons.
In case you haven't notice, let me say this again: That's why I am saying you need beam weapons for that matter.
By using beam weapons, you now have the ability to shoot the weapon at an angle from the barrel.

Also, ability to fly at M4.8 does not mean you have to keep at M4.8, just like how the Metal Storm can shoot at 1 million RPM doesn't mean it has to shoot 1 million rounds every time you fire.

BTW, even without changing weapons, consider trajectory(bullets drop because of gravity), you don't really need to fly straight towards your target.


FF-3/S3, FF-4, FF-6 already made use of hit and run tactics and have success to certain degree and was the main forces to hold off Zeon MS for EFAF, and these were still using 25mm guns and less missiles. I don't see why you think the FF-X7 with a similar load out and better spec(better speed, armour, etc.) won't be effective.
Putting aside the alleged helicopter-like maneuverability that the Core Fighter doesn't have and the top speed it can't use even a fraction of in combat because of its painfully short engagement range, it's doubtful the Core Fighter's weapons are comparable to the A-10's GAU-8/A cannon too since its small size and poor aerodynamic profile would make multiple 30mm cannons of that type even more disruptive to the Core Fighter than the GAU-8/A is to the A-10. It's far more likely their performance is more comparable to the smaller, less powerful 30mm guns meant for use on strike fighters like the GSh-6-30. They don't have the ammunition for the kind of sustained, high-powered firing the A-10 does, and they have enough trouble just flying straight and level without multiple high-powered 30mm cannons firing.
And again, I am talking about with a change in weapon.
But even if it is using something like GSh-6-30, or the even slower M203E Chain gun, with the M4.8 speed adding on, the actual initial velocity of the bullet relative to the target will still be double of the GAU-8/A's muzzle velocity. The Core fighter can well slow down to M2 and still be able to have similar energy for each bullet compared to the A-10 considering they have way better explosive tech than us.
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Re: Core Fighter Power?

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:40 pm Actually, the Core fighter was seen to be able to do much more in show.
It can barely fly like a plane because it is not really flying as a plane.
... the Core Fighter was basically useless in the show unless connected to a Core Booster, and even then it wasn't effective for much.

It can barely fly like a plane because the aspects of its design necessary to facilitate its transformation into a component of the Gundam make for an awful aerodynamic profile with too-small wings and control surfaces relative to its size. It's not designed to fly in any other way.

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:40 pm The thing is at least said to have standard performance against air and ground combat for a small fighter in the MG Manual, and the PG Manual even elaborated that and said it is very good as a fighter by itself.
Standards must be pretty low, then... given that the much more detailed (and accurate) technical writeup in Master Archive notes that it's got a generally poor aerodynamic profile because it's almost literally a flying brick that is not helped by having undersized control surfaces. It's noted that the Core Fighter's overall stability is so poor that it needs an atypically powerful flight computer to be controllable at all. It's indicated to be a pain to maintain and have overall poor reliability in service too, needing a fair amount of retrofitting in order to function as a combat aircraft once the EFSF's brass gave up on core blocks for the GM and started throwing the remaining trial production units at the enemy in desperation.

Maybe the Dopp set the standard? If I recall correctly, that was also a barely flyable mess that needed sophisticated computer controls and vernier assistance just to stay upright. (I meant that as snark, but it actually does make sense in hindsight since the Dopp was Zeon's only fighter in 0079. The Core Fighter's a terrible mess, but the Dopp's worse... which would explain why the Core Fighter could be regarded favorably despite being this awful mess of a design.)

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:40 pm Yes, it is weak as an aircraft and cannot fly through enemy territories by itself, but I doubt a lot of aircraft has that kind of ability other than some spy planes like U-2 and SR-71. That part is essentially talking about its short operational range as a light aircraft.
It's just plain weak as a combat aircraft in general. Poor handling, poor armament, poor reliability, poor maintainability... but then, that's what anyone would expect from something that is a fighter in name only and is actually little more than a glorified and overcomplicated escape pod.

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:40 pm That is why the premise of what I am saying is you need to change its weapons.
In case you haven't notice, let me say this again: That's why I am saying you need beam weapons for that matter.
By using beam weapons, you now have the ability to shoot the weapon at an angle from the barrel.
Only if the beam weapon is turret-mounted... but the Core Fighter also doesn't have the space for the particle condensers necessary to drive a mega particle cannon of its own and off-axis firing from a moving aircraft requires the aircraft to be moving relatively slow and on a stable trajectory, which isn't conducive to not being shot down and the reason support aircraft like the AC-130 don't generally wander into areas full of anti-aircraft guns and launchers.

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:40 pm Also, ability to fly at M4.8 does not mean you have to keep at M4.8, just like how the Metal Storm can shoot at 1 million RPM doesn't mean it has to shoot 1 million rounds every time you fire.
It's still irrelevant. It can't engage at Mach 4.8 because the range of its weapons is too short. It's like taking a drag racer onto city streets. Yeah, you CAN go like 200mph in a straight line, but you can't turn for sh*t and there's no practical use for going 200mph in a straight line in normal operation.

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:40 pm BTW, even without changing weapons, consider trajectory(bullets drop because of gravity), you don't really need to fly straight towards your target.
The point you're missing is accuracy. Even the best, most accurate 30mm rotary cannons available only have an effective range of about 1km with a reasonable level of accuracy because spin-stabilized bullets don't fly in neat optically linear trajectories and air resistance and gravity both slow them down and cause the accuracy to drop as the range increases. Increased airspeed diminishes the accuracy of the hard rounds too, because they have to deal with much greater air resistance. You could shoot from farther away, but more than a few kilometers and you're not going to hit much and the stopping power will be reduced. The maximum viable range of the GAU-8/A, the most powerful 30mm rotary cannon mounted on an aircraft, is only 3.7km and at that point you're not so much shooting the target as peppering a tennis court-sized area with hard rounds in the hopes of scoring a very lucky hit.

That also doesn't consider that the GAU-8 and other cannons like it breach armor through sustained fire... something the Core Fighter can't do with its painfully limited ammo supply.
MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:40 pm FF-3/S3, FF-4, FF-6 already made use of hit and run tactics and have success to certain degree and was the main forces to hold off Zeon MS for EFAF, and these were still using 25mm guns and less missiles. I don't see why you think the FF-X7 with a similar load out and better spec(better speed, armour, etc.) won't be effective.
That's MSV... is it even canon? I doubt it.
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