The Protection conferred by Phase Shift Armor

[Underrated GM Custom]

Hey folks, I'm hoping some SEED experts can weigh in on this. I've recently been wondering how effective Phase Shift armor is in the Gundam SEED universe. Specifically when it comes to energy weapons.

When it come to physical type weapons Andrew Waltfield mentions in his introductory episode that a certain number of shots will drain the battery, turning off the PS and make the Gundam vulnerable to conventional munitions. It's been a while since I've seen it but as I recall the BuCUEs were firing missiles and/or railguns at the Launcher Strike.

That all makes sense, but I'm curious how Phase Shift interacts with energy weapons. While we see it make a Gundam relatively immune to physical weapons throughout the show, beam rifles can still cause severe damage while PS is up. Does the Phase Shift armor attenuate beam damage at all?

I recall near the end of the show when Mwu is launching in the Strike to defend the Archangel against the Dominion there's a line in there about "how there's a limit to what Phase Shift armor can do" before the Strike is hit by the enemy Lohengrin weapons. This line always made me wonder, what Phase Shift is capable of since it sounds as though it would have some effect against the enemy's energy weapons.

To summarize my questions:
1. Does PS have any effect or attenuation on Beam weapons?
2. If it has an effect on energy weapons is it universal or only against certain types of weapons? (i.e. Beam Rifles Yes, Plasma Cannon Yes, Beam Sabers No, etc.)
3. Are there any publications out there that mention the operational time for Phase Shift armor and how it degrades when being hit?
4. Are there any publications that talk about how weapons drain the battery? Does the drain on the battery correlate with the impact of the weapon hitting it? Using the BaCUE example is there any info out there saying for instance the twin-railguns drain 10x as much as a single hit of a smaller missile?
5. Is there any info out there for how much a Gundam's weapon use drains the battery? I assume the Agni Impulse Cannon has a much higher draw on the battery than a beam rifle, but I'm curious if there are any manuals that give a ratio like each shot drains the equivalent of 5 beam rifle shots.

Thanks!

[MythSearcher]

Not an expert of CE, but doesn't the Genesis blocked a beam attack(positron cannon) with it's PS armour in SEED?
I assume it got SOME effects on beam weapons, but is negligible on MS level output, but if it comes to megastructures, they can be used to block beam weapons.

iirc, it's 76 hits from those missiles as Waltfield said, but likely just a random number because he wouldn't have any method of actually knowing this precisely.

And no, there are no info at all to my knowledge as to how much the weapons are draining.

[azrael]

It's best not to think too hard about Phase Shift Armor because it is wildly inconsistent in use by the writers. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes. That being said,

1. Likely yes, but power requirements needed make that possible are staggering on a MS. G.E.N.E.S.I.S. has the power output several thousand times and orders of magnitude greater than a MS nuclear reactor. MS nuclear reactors are only so big and can only generate so much power.
2. Technically it should be universal...but it resisted a Anti-matter Positron cannon shot....makes no sense....
3. Nope. Operational time is dependent solely on usage. Take more hits? Use more power. Use more beam weapons? Use more power. Waltfield's 76-hits estimation of Strike's PS armor operational time was based on it not fighting back or being suppressed enough not to fight back much. At the same time, Strike drained itself without taking a hit fighting and spamming beams versus the 4 other G-units.
4. Nope.
5. Nope. Wattage specs are not listed on the specs.

[Arsarcana]

To add to the above, the physical shields that Strike and the other Gundams carry are specifically identified as having anti-beam coatings and descriptions tend to mention that they're useful for protecting against beam weaponry that PS Armor is weak against. The existence of GENESIS implies that it's not an absolute inability of PS to work against energy weapons but on a practical level, Mobile Suits simply can't provide the power necessary so the Gundams make up for that by carrying shields that can block a few beam hits before degrading.

[Underrated GM Custom]

Thanks for the responses so far!

For Waltfield, I got the impression he studied up on the specs from the 4 captured machines and did a quick back of the envelope calculations for how many hits the Strike could sustain when he would later attack it with his BuCUEs. Story wise it would have been better to show this before the battle instead of during, haha.

I suppose that does bring up an interesting question, let's say that Andrew was basing these hits off of captured data of the other 4 GAT machines. Are the 5 original GAT machines equal in battery size? Or do some of the frames have larger batteries than the others?

Regarding Phase Shift and energy weapons:
The Variable Phase Shift used by Freedom / Justice has the ability to crank up the power being supplied to Phase Shift. Would this allow them to resist or attenuate a beam shot such that it causes damage but doesn't pierce through? It's been a while but I'm fairly certain we see Freedom & Justice take a few hits during the finale but I don't recall how much (if any) visible damage there was. It may have all been on the Meteor system as well.

Regarding power draw:
The Sword Strike pack has the longest run time, I don't think it ever ran out of power during the show which makes sense given it's weaponry. As I recall Launcher strikes ran out the most and often the fastest. I suppose as a baseline we can assume that the power draw on the batteries goes melee & thrown weapons < beam rifles < large energy weapons.

I will also hazard a guess that railguns in CE have a lower power draw than beam weapons. The Lightning Strike from MSV was intended to have a longer operating time than the other Striker packs. In addition to external battery packs it opted for a railgun style weapon over the long range energy weapons used by Launcher strike & Buster.

[azrael]

I suppose that does bring up an interesting question, let's say that Andrew was basing these hits off of captured data of the other 4 GAT machines. Are the 5 original GAT machines equal in battery size? Or do some of the frames have larger batteries than the others?

We don't know. Gundam SEED writers did not list power storage specs on the MS batteries. We do know that GAT-X105's Striker packs have external battery addons (That white thing on Aile, the grey thing sticking up on Sword's backpack, and on the back of the "Agni" Impulse cannon).

Regarding Phase Shift and energy weapons:
The Variable Phase Shift used by Freedom / Justice has the ability to crank up the power being supplied to Phase Shift. Would this allow them to resist or attenuate a beam shot such that it causes damage but doesn't pierce through? It's been a while but I'm fairly certain we see Freedom & Justice take a few hits during the finale but I don't recall how much (if any) visible damage there was. It may have all been on the Meteor system as well.

Again, MS nuclear reactors do not have the necessary power output for their size to generate the power to resist beam weapons, hence the beam shields.

[Arsarcana]

Are the 5 original GAT machines equal in battery size? Or do some of the frames have larger batteries than the others?

As mentioned we don't have specs for this and using the show to try and judge these things is fraught with peril since dramatic tension is going to outweigh someone crunching numbers and deciding that this is when one suit should start having power issues and then this one a few minutes later... especially since the other four suits rarely if ever run out of power regardless of what they're doing. The only major exception is Aegis in its final battle and I suspect the real reason for that was 'if it didn't dramatically run out of juice just then, Kira would be dead and the show would be over'.

It's been a while but I'm fairly certain we see Freedom & Justice take a few hits during the finale but I don't recall how much (if any) visible damage there was. It may have all been on the Meteor system as well.

Justice gets through without much damage that I can recall (barring the self-destruct at the end) but Freedom got mauled by Providence's Dragoons over the course of its final battle.

[Underrated GM Custom]

Copy all, thanks for the help!

[John-Luck Pickerd]

Adding to the answers above...

I mean, how much enemy solid weapons drains the power, and how much your own beam weapons drains the power will always depends on different types of weapons and warheads,hell for solid weapons even impact angle would probably be important. By the time of Destiny, the batteries and the VPS armour have advanced to a point where you wont need to worry about battery level in a long battle. The Saviour also managed to travel from Orb to Australia, which should be a fair bit of distance.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0408023428

As for the four other GAT machines' batteries. we do know that the Buster have auxiliary batteries on the knees. The Strike itself might not have large battery either, rather just a small internal battery, and instead rely on the batteries in the backpack. I guess there is a baseline that can be estimated from the four machines, and there are always record of Strike in combat.

On the topic of protection from PS armour, the Freedom actually managed to survive a shot from the Providence's Dragoon during the final moment, but the Freedom also took a fair bit of damage from that shot. If the beam weapon output is low enough, a mobile suit PS armour can take a shot, but even then it would ba damaged from that shot, just not destroyed.

Speaking of the shields, anti beam coating were not the only material for shield, Freedom's shield was specifically laminated material, possibly the same for Justice and the other ZGMF-X suits as well.

[Kuruni]

possibly the same for Justice and the other ZGMF-X suits as well.

I'm preyty sure that Providence use PS shield.

[Dark Duel]

I don't think so, because the Providence's shield is the same color regardless of whether its Phase Shift is active or not.

Looking at this screenshot, in which its Phase Shift is active, the shield is the same light gray as the rest of the body.
But looking at it pre-deployment like in this screenshot, in which its Phase Shift is inactive, you can see that the whole body is in shades of dull, dark blue-gray...except the shield, which is the same light grey, with blue and red detailing, as it is when PS is active.
It does not match the "Phase Shift down" colors of the rest of the machine.

Now I don't know if it's ever been claimed to do so in supplemental materials. But based on what the animation shows, the Providence's shield does not use PS armor.

[Underrated GM Custom]

Adding to the answers above...

I mean, how much enemy solid weapons drains the power, and how much your own beam weapons drains the power will always depends on different types of weapons and warheads,hell for solid weapons even impact angle would probably be important. By the time of Destiny, the batteries and the VPS armour have advanced to a point where you wont need to worry about battery level in a long battle. The Saviour also managed to travel from Orb to Australia, which should be a fair bit of distance.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0408023428

Thanks for the additional info! Quick question, I thought VPS was only on the N-Jammer equipped machines and the conventional battery type machines switched over to Trans Phase Shift armor which drained the battery per shot instead of being on constantly. Were there battery equipped machines using VPS?

On the topic of protection from PS armour, the Freedom actually managed to survive a shot from the Providence's Dragoon during the final moment, but the Freedom also took a fair bit of damage from that shot. If the beam weapon output is low enough, a mobile suit PS armour can take a shot, but even then it would ba damaged from that shot, just not destroyed.

That's something I had been curious about. In UC at least, not all beams are created equal; some are weaker output some are higher output. Some are adjusted to be wider or more diffused and some are meant to be highly penetrating like the VSBR. I was curious if Phase Shift had any effect on 'weaker' beams. It sounds like it may have attenuated the shots from the Providence's Dragoon and the armor/structure took the rest of the energy.

[Arsarcana]

Thanks for the additional info! Quick question, I thought VPS was only on the N-Jammer equipped machines and the conventional battery type machines switched over to Trans Phase Shift armor which drained the battery per shot instead of being on constantly. Were there battery equipped machines using VPS?

Trans-Phase Armor was really only used on the Calamity, Forbidden and Raider and their derivatives. It's visually distinct from PS because it doesn't have an 'inactive' color change. Variable Phase Shift is what pretty much everything shifted to in Destiny starting with the five 'Second Stage' Gundams and it's supposed to be more energy-efficient and the strength of the armor can be tweaked in the field. One suspects it really existed to justify merchandising strategies but that's neither here nor there. Anyhow, there's no real connection between power source and armor; The N-Jammer equipped suits used Phase Shift in SEED and VPS in Destiny, battery-powered suits have used all three armor types.

[John-Luck Pickerd]

In Destiny, Rey's Zaku took a glancing shot from Exus' beam gun barrels and he survived with damage. So by the time of Destiny, even normal armour can take a glancing shot from a weak beam weapon i guess.

As for VPS armour. This armour is applied to Impulse, Gaia, Chaos, Abyss and Saviour along with their variants. You can see these MS change color when they activate, there was even a sequence in Destiny, I think it was right before the battle in Junius Seven, where Gaia, Chaos and Abyss are all in the same shot and change colour at the same time. Alliance nations also managed to get a hold of the technology when they got the Gaia Chaos and Abyss, Fujiyama company applied VPS onto their Raigo.

I dont think there is a source that explicitly explained the VPS armour. However as I recall the "regular" PS armour works by running an electric current through the armour. In Destiny MS Encyclopedia that I managed to dug up, it is specified that it is the electric voltage gives the armour the various bright non-deactivated grey colours. So how the VPS armour works should be easy to figure out with a bit of applied electrical know-how: by minimizing the current running through the armour, you can also keep the power consumption of the armour minimized without touching the voltage. Altering the current without touching voltage ain hard to do, pretty sure a high school science lab would have the material to do that.

https://hfdcdot.vajjknzaurzg.hath.netwo ... cu0019.jpg

[MythSearcher]

There is also whether Watfield is talking about a complete power down or just a saturation on the capacitor for the PS armour.

Real life electric reactive armour works by discharging a high capacitor for the energy needs, so 76 hits may just be a discharge of the capacitor in order to make the PS armour power down and not the complete power down with the weapon systems. (though I doubt they had given this this much thought, obviously the MS still move around when they claim a power down so obviously having power for the motions.)

[John-Luck Pickerd]

There is also whether Watfield is talking about a complete power down or just a saturation on the capacitor for the PS armour.

Real life electric reactive armour works by discharging a high capacitor for the energy needs, so 76 hits may just be a discharge of the capacitor in order to make the PS armour power down and not the complete power down with the weapon systems. (though I doubt they had given this this much thought, obviously the MS still move around when they claim a power down so obviously having power for the motions.)

Not complete power down I guess. At a certain level, the power armor is cut off to extend thr machine's operating time just a bit more

https://imgur.com/a/ALF6YmB

[Kuruni]

I don't think so, because the Providence's shield is the same color regardless of whether its Phase Shift is active or not.

Looking at this screenshot, in which its Phase Shift is active, the shield is the same light gray as the rest of the body.
But looking at it pre-deployment like in this screenshot, in which its Phase Shift is inactive, you can see that the whole body is in shades of dull, dark blue-gray...except the shield, which is the same light grey, with blue and red detailing, as it is when PS is active.
It does not match the "Phase Shift down" colors of the rest of the machine.

Now I don't know if it's ever been claimed to do so in supplemental materials. But based on what the animation shows, the Providence's shield does not use PS armor.

It's hard to tell since it's gray (and I do have problem telling different shade).

[azrael]

Now I don't know if it's ever been claimed to do so in supplemental materials. But based on what the animation shows, the Providence's shield does not use PS armor.

If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage. It would have been noted on supplement materials but I have never heard otherwise so I'm inclined to assume it does not have PS armor.

Thanks for the additional info! Quick question, I thought VPS was only on the N-Jammer equipped machines and the conventional battery type machines switched over to Trans Phase Shift armor which drained the battery per shot instead of being on constantly. Were there battery equipped machines using VPS?

No. VPS was introduced on Second Stage ZAFT mobile suits (Chaos, Gaia, Impulse, Saviour, Abyss), which all used batteries.

That's something I had been curious about. In UC at least, not all beams are created equal; some are weaker output some are higher output. Some are adjusted to be wider or more diffused and some are meant to be highly penetrating like the VSBR. I was curious if Phase Shift had any effect on 'weaker' beams. It sounds like it may have attenuated the shots from the Providence's Dragoon and the armor/structure took the rest of the energy.

It's not something they address in Gundam SEED. Gundam 00 does address it with their linear and beam guns where they alter their output which affects penetration capability & re-fire rates.

In Destiny, Rey's Zaku took a glancing shot from Exus' beam gun barrels and he survived with damage. So by the time of Destiny, even normal armour can take a glancing shot from a weak beam weapon i guess.

My skin could take a glancing shot from a bullet. It doesn't mean my skin is somehow more durable than my parents. IIRC, the same happened to Shinn in Impulse. It wasn't a straight shot so there isn't much to gleam from it.

Real life electric reactive armour works by discharging a high capacitor for the energy needs, so 76 hits may just be a discharge of the capacitor in order to make the PS armour power down and not the complete power down with the weapon systems. (though I doubt they had given this this much thought, obviously the MS still move around when they claim a power down so obviously having power for the motions.)

Because they don't address how PS armor works, it's hard to relate to electrified reactive armor/electric armor.

[MythSearcher]

VPS was designed to save power, so makes sense it is not going to be on "infinite" power units.

Because they don't address how PS armor works, it's hard to relate to electrified reactive armor/electric armor.

Doesn't matter how it works, if it requires electricity, and you need a high power discharge, you want to use capacitors. Same goes for rail guns and other applications which need a sudden peak surge.

[Underrated GM Custom]

Ah my mistake, I was thinking that VPS first debuted on Freedom and Justice since they did not have limited operational time and being able to adjust Phase Shift depending on the energy draw of the weapons. Makes sense that it debuted in Destiny as a technological improvement.

Thanks for all the info, the part about discharging the capacitor is certainly interesting. I had previously been thinking of Phase Shift draining the remaining energy but if Waltfield was talking instead about overloading a capacitor that's an interesting tactic.

Last question. When the suits go into the power-down mode what is still active on the Mobile Suit aside from Life Support? I'm trying to recall if there are any sequences that show what the Strike is still capable of after it's drained the battery so low that PS turns off and the beam weapons are unusable. I know it can still dock with other striker packs and I'm assuming it has limited mobility to assist with recovery operations.