The Gundam F91?

[Mafty]

So how powerful do you think the Gundam F91 was compared to other UC Units? It seems kinda lightly armed, and aside from some After Image effects, doesn't have a specialized weapon.

[Seto Kaiba]

So how powerful do you think the Gundam F91 was compared to other UC Units? It seems kinda lightly armed, and aside from some After Image effects, doesn't have a specialized weapon.

UC Gundam is one long serial escalation... so "more powerful than the Gundams that chronologically precede it and less than those that follow it". So, more powerful than the Penelope and Xi Gundam and less powerful than the Victory Gundam.

It had a specialized weapon... the VSBR, beam rifles powered directly off the reactor that could operate as a beam machine gun or long-range beam rifle interchangeably with variable output and also act as extra limbs for AMBAC.

[MythSearcher]

UC Gundam is one long serial escalation... so "more powerful than the Gundams that chronologically precede it and less than those that follow it". So, more powerful than the Penelope and Xi Gundam and less powerful than the Victory Gundam.

It had a specialized weapon... the VSBR, beam rifles powered directly off the reactor that could operate as a beam machine gun or long-range beam rifle interchangeably with variable output and also act as extra limbs for AMBAC.

VSBR can be adjusted to penetrate beam shields, which is too high of a penetration if used on a unit without a beam shield.
The low penetration mode is like your regular beam rifle, which basically explodes when hit since the mega particles reverts to minovsky particles and increase in volume by a lot.(mega particles are highly compressed minovsky particles until +ve and -ve ones degenerate into neutral mega particles which has higher mass(from the compression energy) So VSBR are more like a beam weapon that can do HE shots or AP shots like modern large calibre guns.

[Mafty]

It seems like the Xi and Penelope (especially the Penelope) would have been more powerful than the F91 despite being earlier; because they are much larger and seemingly have more armaments with the mega particle canons. That being said while Tomino wrote Hathaway's Flash before F91, following the admittedly complex "Canon" of Sunrise, Hathaway's Flash would not have been considered canon in 1991 as it hadn't been adapted to animation yet. The F91 in comparison to the Nu Gundam would probably be be more powerful as Myth said because it's thirty years later, and is a test bed for new technology. Also would the Bio-Computer be seen as an advanced form of the Psychoframe from the previous century?

[Seto Kaiba]

It seems like the Xi and Penelope (especially the Penelope) would have been more powerful than the F91 despite being earlier; because they are much larger and seemingly have more armaments with the mega particle canons.

That's why we look at objectively measurable stats... the F91's got a better reactor than the Xi or Penelope, it's faster, it has the VSBRs, it has advanced armor materials based on psycoframe technology, its biocomputer is essentially next-gen psycommu tech, a beam shield, etc.

The F91's basically a whole generation newer, and intended to push the limits of THAT newer generation's technology.

[MythSearcher]

It seems like the Xi and Penelope (especially the Penelope) would have been more powerful than the F91 despite being earlier; because they are much larger and seemingly have more armaments with the mega particle canons. That being said while Tomino wrote Hathaway's Flash before F91, following the admittedly complex "Canon" of Sunrise, Hathaway's Flash would not have been considered canon in 1991 as it hadn't been adapted to animation yet. The F91 in comparison to the Nu Gundam would probably be be more powerful as Myth said because it's thirty years later, and is a test bed for new technology. Also would the Bio-Computer be seen as an advanced form of the Psychoframe from the previous century?

Not really.
The real IP holder isn't Sunrise and many publications have included non-anime stories to be canon. Though arguable most of these are published around and after the year 2000.
To a certain extend, it's almost like whatever became popular enough and doesn't contradict the story can be considered, because that is how they make money.

And about how powerful it is.
Bigger isn't always better.
Now, I do not really want to compare F91 to Xi or even Nu because F91 is still kinda debatable about whether it is a NT custom machine. The Bio-computer is kinda a psychommu tech, but it is not really "the same thing just improved." It's more like "We do not have tech of that black box so we have this black box that does something else".
But if we look at the other techs, the F91 is smaller because the generator technology has improved so they can be even more compact but with the same or even higher output. Thus you do not need as big a machine to have the same output power. The Minovsky flight technology replace the bulky Minovsky Craft technology(or if you take the movie version of Hathaway Penelop and Xi both uses Minovsky flight but is also still much more bulky)
So a good analogy is like the old 1st gen cell phones are bigger than current smartphones, but is not better.
And the fin funnel/funnel missiles are just weapon of choice, they seem to be less favourable to remote bits as weapons in the latter half of UC for some unknown reason. You still get some units using it, but for some reason it never became a trend.

And then you get this conceptual improvement of the beam shield, which is a big leap in defence tech.

So, overall F91 has better stats even when it is a smaller unit, so a better unit if you limit it to that.

[Kuruni]

So how powerful do you think the Gundam F91 was compared to other UC Units? It seems kinda lightly armed, and aside from some After Image effects, doesn't have a specialized weapon.

UC Gundam is one long serial escalation... so "more powerful than the Gundams that chronologically precede it and less than those that follow it". So, more powerful than the Penelope and Xi Gundam and less powerful than the Victory Gundam.

But less powerful than Unicorn, however.

[Mafty]

That's because Unicorn was written 18 years after Gundam F91 came out, so it has the Cosmetically Advanced Prequel issue. There's also the fact that apparently the the anime increases the Unicorns power compared to the novel, then of course we have the power of the Phenex from Narrative, which probably exceeds every other Gundam until the Turn A with it's metaphysical power.

[Seto Kaiba]

That's because Unicorn was written 18 years after Gundam F91 came out, so it has the Cosmetically Advanced Prequel issue. There's also the fact that apparently the the anime increases the Unicorns power compared to the novel, then of course we have the power of the Phenex from Narrative, which probably exceeds every other Gundam until the Turn A with it's metaphysical power.

The Unicorns are a special case, not just because the light novel was written out of chronological order but because it was deliberately made a weapon that was so stupidly overpowered that both sides decided to seal it away forever and never speak of it again as a way of excusing its terrible terrible writing.

[yazi88]

Is it fair to say the F91 would still be a strong unit during the Zanscare War? Its specs are still quite strong compared to most mobile suits of that period.

Although it also depends if we are talking about the MP unit from Crossbone or the prototype one from the movie.

The MP one is still a pretty good unit although its a bit of a downgrade compared to the prototype.

[Arsarcana]

Even the mass-production F91 would be a massive upgrade compared to the Jamesgun and Javelin that the Federation were using as their main MS. That said, I imagine it would depend on the environment; the use of beam rotors and Minovsky Flight systems mean that newer machines on each side are more maneuverable (or at least more efficiently so) under gravity. Those VSBRs would really ruin the day of most MS of that era though.

[MythSearcher]

The Unicorns are a special case, not just because the light novel was written out of chronological order but because it was deliberately made a weapon that was so stupidly overpowered that both sides decided to seal it away forever and never speak of it again as a way of excusing its terrible terrible writing.

While I agree it is stupidly overpowered, it is the only current canon attempt to reasonable(albeit idiotic, stupid and bad) explain the lack of Psychoframe tech and turned to using Bio-computer tech(which my fan theory is that was developed from the Biosensor line of tech instead) in late UC.
The only major problem is, both Penelope and Xi still used Psychoframe tech.

[Mafty]

This again falls into the canonicity issue between Manga and Anime. Hathaway's Flash took 31 years to actually be animated, so it probably wasn't considered canon when it was first written, thus allowing more leeway the likes of which we would later see in Unicorn. That being said having suits that can form massive psychic laser shields and travel through space by Newtype energy, plus the hulking mechanical beasts that are Xi and Penelope, turning to a unit whose main power is a admittedly powerful rifle and afterimages is more than a little of a step down tech wise.

That being said there is still another in universe reason for this. The F91 was mean to be seen as a prototype testbed unit to be tested in an era of relative peace. The Nu Gundam was equipped with powerful new Pyschoframe technology in order to fight in a war. The Unicorn series followed in the Nu Gundams footsteps, and in the process opened a Pandora's Box, that was ultimately sealed again. The Xi Gundam was made to go up against the brutal Manhunter Attachment of the Federation Forces, and I have no idea if the Penelope was made to fight Mafty or if it started out as a powerful prototype Anaheim made for...some reason.

So really the F91 wasn't exactly made for a specific purpose , other than being a test bed for new technology. It got assigned to a training ship, where it proved itself well, in an admittedly small scale war. It being less flashy than other units is also probably a big factor in it being mass produced. It was a cheaper, more cost effective unit, that would still prove worth in battle.

For an example of a smaller Gundam that would still prove powerful in a large scale war, look no further than the Victory Gundam.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] plus the hulking mechanical beasts that are Xi and Penelope, turning to a unit whose main power is a admittedly powerful rifle and afterimages is more than a little of a step down tech wise.

Again, the specs generally disagree with that assessment as I and others have pointed out. You may want to try basing your arguments on the evidence.

Being a "hulking mechanical beast" is not an advantage... it means you're a big target, and is only excusable if it's the ONLY way to incorporate the needed functionality for your intended operations. The F91's more compact, with higher performance and newer technology. It's a smaller target that hits harder and is harder to score a definitive hit on as a result of its beam shield technology that is more resilient and versatile than laminated physical shields.

The Unicorn series are, of course, their own thing... but their outrageous performance is equal parts not needing to be economical (i.e. not being intended for actual military use) and going all-in on the idea of a newtype-use MS that took that concept to its illogical extreme and became nearly impossible for even newtypes to use.

That being said there is still another in universe reason for this. The F91 was mean to be seen as a prototype testbed unit to be tested in an era of relative peace.

... say that again to yourself, real slow.

Are you really trying to argue that a prototype weapon stops being a prototype weapon simply because there wasn't a war on yet when testing started?

The F91 was made to take the then-current gen Mobile Suit technology of SNRI to its absolute limit.

[Mafty]

Sorry about that I kinda thought that the F91 was meant more as a testbed than as a combat unit; Like the Unicorn not being explicitly made for the military. Now I realize that doesn't make any sense. SNRI and the EFF would actually need to constantly add to the military power to cover all eventualities (which in Gundam are never far off).

Also is there any data on how the Mass Produced F91 compares to the original prototype? Do they modify the unit for cost and mass production? Or are they able to keep the same features of the original, or even add new features? The only cosmetic difference in the mass produced version is that Harrison Madin's unit is painted like the Gundam Mk II.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sorry about that I kinda thought that the F91 was meant more as a testbed than as a combat unit; Like the Unicorn not being explicitly made for the military. Now I realize that doesn't make any sense. SNRI and the EFF would actually need to constantly add to the military power to cover all eventualities (which in Gundam are never far off).

Even then, there's a way more obvious reason that didn't make sense. To wit...

"Since when has the Universal Century timeline - or Gundam as a whole - actually depicted a prototype realistically in any sense? Especially as an extremely expensive test article not intended for live combat?"

You could count the examples on one hand and have fingers left over, and they're basically all pre-One Year War Zeon experimental models like the MS-01 and the prototype Zaku from Developers.

The Earth Federation is particularly stupid about it. Gundams might be described as prototypes, but no actual engineer would give that a pass on the bullsh*t sniff test. The point of a prototype is to evaluate production-intent systems, and the production-intent design itself as an integrated system, before the start of production. Gundams aren't intended to be mass produced, and are generally speaking way too expensive to be mass produced, so they're really more like ace customs with a little experimental hardware added. They're 100% intended to go into combat, legally or otherwise.

Also is there any data on how the Mass Produced F91 compares to the original prototype? Do they modify the unit for cost and mass production? Or are they able to keep the same features of the original, or even add new features? The only cosmetic difference in the mass produced version is that Harrison Madin's unit is painted like the Gundam Mk II.

The F91 was not mass-produced. A small number of economized F91 units were built with reduced-capability versions of the bio-computer and Multiple Construction Armor. Other than that, their specs are indicated to be the same as the F91 used by Seabrook Arno.

[yazi88]

Yeah, its a very limited mass production unit with the F91. Just a small downgrade compared to the prototype. Performance wise its about the same as Seto mentioned, the main things omitted is the armor and bio-computer, the later only being most effective by newtypes.

[MythSearcher]

Sorry about that I kinda thought that the F91 was meant more as a testbed than as a combat unit; Like the Unicorn not being explicitly made for the military. Now I realize that doesn't make any sense. SNRI and the EFF would actually need to constantly add to the military power to cover all eventualities (which in Gundam are never far off).

There is this dilemma EFF has to face, especially in peaceful times.
A) The parliament wants to lower costs, obvious ways are: have a smaller military since a smaller military meant less spending, right?
B) You need a basic military size to cover the huge size of the Earth's sphere even if it just meant patrolling the whole place. I did a quick calculation using pretty insane acceleration for warships(almost OYW MS level) and only covering major routes to and from Earth and L3,4,5 with the Moon and the Moon orbit. (L1 and 2 are covered by the Moon patrols) with a 1 hour gap between each ship. You still need around 400 ships with that much distance to cover.(which conveniently matches the number of Clops EFF replaced in 0090s order, so we will go with that)
C) Not using the best equipment is also a pretty good idea, only change when absolutely necessary so things are cheap.

So, what they do is replace units with cheap ones.
Actually, the replacement with Clop is kinda strange. I made a comparison picture and the Clop actually has a smaller MS dock than Salamis Kai. But it has more engine and propellant room. So I suspect they are faster and can just operate longer and thus also reduce cost of operation.(probably replaced more Salamis than 400)

But then what happens if something unexpected happens? Well, obviously you need SOME level of contingency, so this is where you get something like WB or Londo Bell. Special forces that have a generally higher equipment level and keeping some cost in developing new MS that can keep up with highest tech level.

Also is there any data on how the Mass Produced F91 compares to the original prototype? Do they modify the unit for cost and mass production? Or are they able to keep the same features of the original, or even add new features? The only cosmetic difference in the mass produced version is that Harrison Madin's unit is painted like the Gundam Mk II.

Varies.
MP F91 has optional parts. The weakest one doesn't even have Bio-computer installed. And even with Bio-computer, you may not have the MEPE option.
So at least from what I know there are these classes:
Basic: without Bio-computer and MEPE
Ace: with Bio-computer but without MEPE
Ace of Ace: Perfect replica of prototype, with both.

[MythSearcher]

Yeah, its a very limited mass production unit with the F91. Just a small downgrade compared to the prototype. Performance wise its about the same as Seto mentioned, the main things omitted is the armor and bio-computer, the later only being most effective by newtypes.

While the MEPE is a small downgrade, the Bio-computer isn't.
It is supposed to be a computer that can sense the skills of the pilot and release the limit of the unit to match the pilot. Without it, the pilot likely cannot utilise the machine to its fullest potential as just releasing the limiters likely will result in a uncontrollable unit.

[Mafty]

You can actually see the issue with the size of the Military in Late UC works. It takes a lot of effort and money to patrol the Earth Sphere, and that's why things begin to fall apart. The tech (Aside from the Gundam's) becomes hopelessly outdated, and the grip the Federation has on the Colony Sides becomes all but non existent by the time of the Zanscare War, to the point some manga focus upon the era of the Warring States in space.

It's also worth noting that the F91 is one of the last Gundam's the Federation actually makes, when you consider the fact that the Victory series is actually made by the League Militarie, and the G-Savior by the Illuminati. That being said the F91 is quite a powerful unit and the EFF does see the practicality of limited mass production(really the F91 is probably the best Gundam to try and mass produce), something that may have given the League Militarie the idea to limited mass produce it's own Gundam.