Railgun Type Weapons

[D_I]

I was wondering how many Railgun style weapons exist in the Universal Century. The only one I know of is the one that the Atlas Gundam uses.
Is there any advantage to having a railgun instead of a beam or shell firing weapon?
I'd assume it would be effective for stealth purposes since beams are so bright and can draw attention to the MS using the beam weapon.
for an example there is the scene with the Zaku sniper in Unicorn where the beam is practically a pillar of light coming down from the sky.

[Seto Kaiba]

I was wondering how many Railgun style weapons exist in the Universal Century. The only one I know of is the one that the Atlas Gundam uses.

Very few... and virtually all of them are unofficial/non-canonical designs from MSV or Gundam Thunderbolt.

That technology is far more common in the most recent AUs like the Cosmic Era (SEED), Anno Domini (00), and Post-Disaster (IBO). Both the Cosmic Era and Post-Disaster Era make use of railguns as high-powered cannons on things like tanks, mobile suits, and mobile armors. In the latter case, nanolaminate armor is all but impervious to long-range shooting unless high-powered railguns (known in-setting as Dainsleif) are used. In the Anno Domini era, railguns seem to have been on track to become the standard projectile weapon of mobile suits in the Union and AEU prior to the introduction of GN beam weaponry thanks to the availability of near-limitless electrical power from the orbital elevators.

Is there any advantage to having a railgun instead of a beam or shell firing weapon?

It really depends on the setting.

In general/real world terms, the advantage to having a railgun as opposed to a conventional cannon using explosive propellants is that the railgun can achieve far greater muzzle velocities for the projectile as long as you have enough electrical power to throw at it. The main limiting factors of conventional cannons are the strength of the barrel and the detonation velocity of the explosive propellant that propels the projectile. The railgun's propulsive force comes from linear motor principles that scale with the input voltage and current. The higher the voltage and the current, the faster your projectile is launched... and as long as the rails conducting that can take it, you can just keep upping that power flow. The BAE railgun developed for the US Navy managed a muzzle velocity of over 2.5km/s, 60% faster than the main gun of an Abrams MBT, and that's with tech from twenty years ago. There is also a safety aspect to railguns, since there is no need to store or handle any potentially volatile explosive propellants anymore and the projectiles are inert metal slugs. (It can also be said to be a more scalable weapon, as long as you can generate enough power you can build extravagantly large railguns or even terribly small ones.)

Beam weapons in Gundam tend to be rather anemic in output power, often being little better than a cannon firing hard rounds except in terms of the beam's optical accuracy and relativistic travel time. They are, however, at least in UC more efficient than railguns since the actual amount of energy to trigger a discharge in precompressed Minovsky particles (e-cap or e-pac) is relatively low.

I'd assume it would be effective for stealth purposes since beams are so bright and can draw attention to the MS using the beam weapon.
for an example there is the scene with the Zaku sniper in Unicorn where the beam is practically a pillar of light coming down from the sky.

Really, I doubt there'd be much difference... beam weapon discharges don't last very long, and Mobile Suits are by their nature inclined to move quickly.

The railgun would probably be the more problematic weapon with UC technology, since the Mobile Suit would need to either carry a large external generator or be tethered to a large external generator similar to the GM Sniper in order to operate the weapon, since the generator output of most UC era mecha is low and largely devoted to running various onboard systems.

[D_I]

ah ok now i understand. thanks for the info.

[Seto Kaiba]

It occurred to me a moment ago that I should mention the main area where you'll find the principles behind railguns applied in Gundam isn't even a weapon...

It's the Mass Driver systems used to launch ships into orbit and the linear catapults used to launch Mobile Suits, Mobile Armors, and fighters with as little propellant use as possible. Those systems employ the same linear motor technology found in railguns to provide acceleration, but for nondestructive purposes.

[D_I]

oh that's actually really cool.
doesn't that mean that some ships would be capable of a really souped up type of kinetic bombardment?
iirc the U.S. air force made a concept for something that could drop tungsten rods that might have the power of a nuke when dropped.
would something like that bypass the Antarctic Treaty or is it already covered by it?

[Seto Kaiba]

oh that's actually really cool.
doesn't that mean that some ships would be capable of a really souped up type of kinetic bombardment?
iirc the U.S. air force made a concept for something that could drop tungsten rods that might have the power of a nuke when dropped.
would something like that bypass the Antarctic Treaty or is it already covered by it?

Using the linear catapults of a ship to launch projectiles wouldn't get them moving very fast. They're made to move bulky objects like mobile suits and fighters up to combat speed without using their internally-carried fuel.

To one-up what you can achieve via gravity alone if you have a sufficiently heat-resistant projectile, you'd need a seriously powerful railgun system like the Olympus Cannon built by Mars Zeon in Gundam F90. That was a massive railgun system built into Olympus Mons on Mars that was meant to launch colossal projectiles across interplanetary distances to attack Earth. The modern concept of kinetic bombardment involves just performing a controlled de-orbiting of a very aerodynamic and very dense projectile like a shaped tungsten rod and letting it hit terminal velocity under gravitational acceleration. That on its own would be pretty nasty... though the larger the projectile the worse the damage. Mars Zeon's Olympus Cannon was aiming for extinction event-type damage rivaling that of colony drops by firing projectiles the size of interplanetary spacecraft at Earth.

Whether that would be banned by the Antarctic Treaty is an interesting question. We don't know all of the Treaty's provisions, but we do know that it bans certain types of kinetic bombardment like colony drops. Whether that extends to smaller scale uses of the same principles is unknown but it seems likely. Of course, the question quickly became academic since the Antarctic Treaty was only valid for about eleven months. It ceased to have force of law in January UC 0080 after the Treaty of Granada abolished the Principality of Zeon and reestablished the Republic of Zeon with a twenty year grace period of independence before Side 3 would become a Federation state again. The only other signatory to the Antarctic Treaty was gone, so the Federation was under no obligation to honor the terms of the Antarctic Treaty themselves.

[Kuruni]

Note that the Zeon Remnants are surprised by the range of Atlas' railgun. IIRC, the dialogue suggest that sniping from that distance is impossible with beam weapon (under atmosphere, I guess, it should be doable in space).

Of course, it's Thunderbolt. So it might doesn't matter at all...

BTW, from F90 A to Z Project, F90S's backpack cannons are retconed from railguns to mega beam cannons. So the last UC mobile suit armed with railgun is Land Combat Hyaku Shiki Kai now.

That being said, I remember that the shot lancer use electromagnetic mechanism similar to railgun to launch the lance. In that case, the last would be Javelin from Victory (or it might be one of those mixed build MS from Crossbone Gundam Dust, I'm not bother to look up).

[MythSearcher]

Note that the Zeon Remnants are surprised by the range of Atlas' railgun. IIRC, the dialogue suggest that sniping from that distance is impossible with beam weapon (under atmosphere, I guess, it should be doable in space).

Of course, it's Thunderbolt. So it might doesn't matter at all...

08th MS team we see GM[G] sniper snipes a Zanzibar with ease, which should be at least a few dozen km away.

[D_I]

Note that the Zeon Remnants are surprised by the range of Atlas' railgun. IIRC, the dialogue suggest that sniping from that distance is impossible with beam weapon (under atmosphere, I guess, it should be doable in space).

Of course, it's Thunderbolt. So it might doesn't matter at all...

08th MS team we see GM[G] sniper snipes a Zanzibar with ease, which should be at least a few dozen km away.

isn't that because that beam rifle is just really powerful? iirc it needs to be hooked up to a large external generator right?

[Seto Kaiba]

So the last UC mobile suit armed with railgun is Land Combat Hyaku Shiki Kai now.

But that's MSV, so it's non-canon until/unless it appears in animation (per Sunrise's official policy).

Many of the later MSV railguns, based on what I've read, are not even actually railguns but railgun-like weaponizations of Minovsky Craft technology.

isn't that because that beam rifle is just really powerful? iirc it needs to be hooked up to a large external generator right?

Master Archive Mobile Suit: RGM-79 GM Vol.1 suggests that the beam rifle in question - the BLASH XBR-X-79YK - can be operated without the large external generator seen in 08th MS Team but it was limited to just two 3.8MW shots with a 120s+ recharge time between thanks to its e-cap and the limited generator capacity of the RGM-79. The external generator was necessary to permit the weapon to operate in the continuous irradiation mode seen in the OVA.

[D_I]

now that i think about it the dainsleif might not be a full on railgun but instead a electromagnetically assisted weapon since the end of the projectile is sticking out of the end of the barrel. It would make much more sense if it was still fired by some sort of propellent and assisted using a railgun mechanism. But since normal railguns pull the projectile through the barrel and the dainsleif takes up the entire barrel there would not be any rails in front of the projectile to pull it. So what if instead the dainsleif is pushed instead of pulled? it would make sense if the dainsleif also had a magnetic coating allowing it to be pushed. sorry if some of this makes no sens my brain sometimes works way too fast for me to keep up and its annoying.

[Seto Kaiba]

now that i think about it the dainsleif might not be a full on railgun but instead a electromagnetically assisted weapon since the end of the projectile is sticking out of the end of the barrel. It would make much more sense if it was still fired by some sort of propellent and assisted using a railgun mechanism. But since normal railguns pull the projectile through the barrel and the dainsleif takes up the entire barrel there would not be any rails in front of the projectile to pull it. So what if instead the dainsleif is pushed instead of pulled? it would make sense if the dainsleif also had a magnetic coating allowing it to be pushed. sorry if some of this makes no sens my brain sometimes works way too fast for me to keep up and its annoying.

To correct my own terminology, the "Dainsleif" is just the kinetic energy penetrator made from high-hardness rare alloy.

It is, however, explicitly and exclusively fired from railguns. The term "railgun" is used many times in its description in Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans Mechanics and World 2.

[MythSearcher]

isn't that because that beam rifle is just really powerful? iirc it needs to be hooked up to a large external generator right?

While it can be really powerful, it is not necessary to hook up an external generator. That rifle was originally designed and seen on RGM-79SP GM Sniper II, without an external tank. Also, the thin laser like beam in 08MS is only the guidance beam and not the full power shot according to Gundam Officials.

[Kuruni]

Probably worth to note that aside of Dainslef, all Pluma (Hashmal's lackeys) are also equipped with a railgun, and Bael has electromagnetic gun in its binders. As McGillis notes, l railgun shooting normal ammo is still legal, if borderline, weapon.

So the last UC mobile suit armed with railgun is Land Combat Hyaku Shiki Kai now.

But that's MSV, so it's non-canon until/unless it appears in animation (per Sunrise's official policy).

Personally, I'm on the old camp that gray works like MSV are optional instead of outright non-canon (the black, contradicted with animate works).

[D_I]

Probably worth to note that aside of Dainslef, all Pluma (Hashmal's lackeys) are also equipped with a railgun, and Bael has electromagnetic gun in its binders. As McGillis notes, l railgun shooting normal ammo is still legal, if borderline, weapon.

So the last UC mobile suit armed with railgun is Land Combat Hyaku Shiki Kai now.

But that's MSV, so it's non-canon until/unless it appears in animation (per Sunrise's official policy).

Personally, I'm on the old camp that gray works like MSV are optional instead of outright non-canon (the black, contradicted with animate works).

at least for me i like to believe that as long as the MSV design is something that could exist in canon with no issues then it should be fine to at least consider it to be semi canon. like that one version of the ball with the mine racks

[Seto Kaiba]

Probably worth to note that aside of Dainslef, all Pluma (Hashmal's lackeys) are also equipped with a railgun, and Bael has electromagnetic gun in its binders. As McGillis notes, l railgun shooting normal ammo is still legal, if borderline, weapon.

Based on the official Mechanics and World books for IBO, railguns were the projectile weapon of choice during the Calamity War era because nanolaminate armor technology made conventional cannons ineffectual except at very close range. The much higher muzzle velocities railguns could achieve were necessary to overcome nanolaminate armor's defensive ability at longer ranges, though special armor-piercing ammunition (like Dainsleif rounds) was required for true long-range engagements.

Gjallarhorn banned many technologies related to the Calamity War after the war ended, including production of Ahab reactors, Dainsleif rounds, etc. in the name of maintaining public order and preventing any more mass destruction like what'd happened to the Moon under mass Dainsleif bombardment. With Mobile Armors gone, Mobile Suits on the decline, and Dainsleif rounds to use against them banned, there wasn't much call for any railguns, so that technology atrophied over the next three centuries like the once-critical Alaya-Vijnana system. The ones used by the Barbatos Lupus and Iok Kujan's Reginlaze were new production prototypes, while the others are old weapons maintained by Gjallarhorn "just in case". Gjallarhorn didn't need them in its day-to-day business since it was "kicking down" at increasingly obsolete Mobile Suits and Mobile Workers that had no nanolaminate armor.

The only Gundam settings where railguns were truly commonplace weapons - CE and AD - were the ones where there either wasn't an equivalent to Minovsky particles or it hadn't been discovered by Earth yet. With a great emphasis on superconductors and external power sources, something like a railgun becomes a lot more attractive as a kinetic option.

[D_I]

Is it known how the Atlas Gundam's railgun reloads and if it it has had mass/limited production? id imagine that there would at least be some sort of use for the tech post war too.

[D_I]

Is it known how the Atlas Gundam's railgun reloads and if it it has had mass/limited production? id imagine that there would at least be some sort of use for the tech post war too.

i just took a look at the railgun for a bit to see if there is anything that could be used as a magazine and it might be that box lookin thing that goes over the hand. maybe its an upscaled version of the mag for the standard federation 100mm MG

[D_I]

Is it known how the Atlas Gundam's railgun reloads and if it it has had mass/limited production? id imagine that there would at least be some sort of use for the tech post war too.

i just took a look at the railgun for a bit to see if there is anything that could be used as a magazine and it might be that box lookin thing that goes over the hand. maybe its an upscaled version of the mag for the standard federation 100mm MG

found some reference images on the gundam wiki and the mag for the railgun loads into the bottom of the weapon.
and apparently the torso has what looks like a ballthat functions like an escape pod. never knew about that im not sure if that appears in the manga or anime since i didnt watch the second season yet and i havent gotten that far into the manga.

https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/RX-78AL_ ... in_gun.jpg
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/RX-78AL_ ... _Torso.jpg

[Seto Kaiba]

Is it known how the Atlas Gundam's railgun reloads and if it it has had mass/limited production? id imagine that there would at least be some sort of use for the tech post war too.

found some reference images on the gundam wiki and the mag for the railgun loads into the bottom of the weapon.
and apparently the torso has what looks like a ballthat functions like an escape pod. never knew about that im not sure if that appears in the manga or anime since i didnt watch the second season yet and i havent gotten that far into the manga.

https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/RX-78AL_ ... in_gun.jpg
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/RX-78AL_ ... _Torso.jpg

Based on the art you linked, it has a detachable box magazine that holds 4-5 armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot shells.

Given that almost all Gundam-deployed gimmicks end up being unsuitable for production and that even Io Fleming struggled with the prototype railgun's deteriorating accuracy with prolonged use it seems unlikely that it would have been mass produced. Especially since mass production suits tend to have less generator output than the super-prototype Gundams, and would be less able to operate the weapon.

(Of course, since Thunderbolt is its own thing largely separate from the UC proper we'll likely never know due to a lack of continued exploration of that alternate UC setting.)