zeta gundam overrated?

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

yugioh54 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:30 am In a sense yes CE used UC as a jumping on point for ideas along with 8th MS Team but I still believe it has it's own style of writing, [...]
It's less a "jumping off point" than "Can I copy your homework?", and its style of writing is "Gundam for Kids!"... that's not even disparaging, that's literally what their goal was. CE's storyline feels kind of basic and has a lot of issues in the eyes of older audiences because its showrunners and the writers were aiming the series at middle schoolers and couldn't make the story as subtle, complex, or nuanced as the UC works the series was being based upon.

A lot of the reason Shinn gets as much crap as he does is that he's a less complex, less nuanced, and much less interesting version of Kamille Bidan who lost a lot of what made Kamille sympathetic in the process of streamlining him for CE's intended audience.

yugioh54 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:30 am I agree UC is raw in it's approach to war and it's spinoffs like Thunderbolts, Hathways flash, Unicorn have a lot of space to explore the events that were hinted at in the main timeline. But so does SEED/DESTINY with the bloody valentine, junius seven drop, the morganrate project with the gundams, the corrupted earth alliance
But, as you pointed out, it's already been done and done better in the Universal Century.

If your goal - as Sunrise's is - is to push viewers towards the UC as the "true" Gundam, why put any more than the necessary effort into a sideshow?

yugioh54 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:30 am The SEED series also sells model kits and has an extended popularity, time will tell UC has a bigger catalog and timeline, SEED does not until the movie comes out or if we'll see another series in CE considering the movie was cancelled at one point.
There is absolutely nothing special about that. That's merchandising. They are trying to make money off an established property, in some cases because it still hasn't broken even on its production costs. Every Gundam series gets that.
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yugioh54
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

Sunrise has different management, sure right NOW there pushing the UC but the AUs were important in the longetivity and if it still resonated younger audiences, there producers all have different feelings, when Fukuda who was asked if there would be more cross ange and said Sunrise was busy with there other mecha franchise(gundam) plus they've been limboed there other franchises like Mai Otome and Code Geass and even 00. There is gundam for kids like gundam build divers. Believe or not I don't think Shinn was the main character of Destiny he doesn't appear in the first episode besides the beginning and end and is just another set of eyes to look at the CE but then becomes a pawn. Comparisons aside Kamille wasn't as interesting as Shinn comes from the fact he's a completely different character as his goals is just listen to ZAFT. The Destiny movie Complications change so Athrun becomes the main vision. Anyway my criticisms don't amount to much I just think Zeta has issues and CE is still popular, UC is popular too but I don;t think Sunrise is trying to convert everyone into a UC fan but the new productions on trying to spread the message war is bad which I think most gundams do a decent job. IBO director tried to kill the whole cast in IDEON fashion. I think the ending of Destiny shows that message too.

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

yugioh54 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:40 am Sunrise has different management, sure right NOW there pushing the UC [...]
"right NOW" is a very incorrect way to spell "always".

In case you have forgotten, the Universal Century is the Gundam franchise's primary revenue stream and always has been. Not only is it a bit of a cultural and industry icon, it's the version of Gundam that's made for and marketed to the franchise's devoted fans. The AU titles are meant to be the franchise's ambassadors to casual viewers: stand-alone titles that follow the same plot beats, tropes, and narrative stylings that didn't require you to be familiar with any previous works to follow the story. They aren't, and never were, intended to be rivals to to the UC. They're meant to be one-and-done titles that introduce Gundam to new viewers with any who want more eventually gravitating towards other titles and ending up with the UC.

yugioh54 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:40 am Anyway my criticisms don't amount to much I just think Zeta has issues and CE is still popular, UC is popular too but I don;t think Sunrise is trying to convert everyone into a UC fan but the new productions on trying to spread the message war is bad which I think most gundams do a decent job. IBO director tried to kill the whole cast in IDEON fashion. I think the ending of Destiny shows that message too.
As I've noted, your complaints with Zeta basically boil down to some form of failure to recognize that Zeta is what every subsequent major installment in the franchise has been copying. It is to Gundam what Goldfinger was to James Bond: the moment when everything that was going to make the franchise great came together for the first time. It's said that every new James Bond movie hopes to be the next Goldfinger. Where Gundam is concerned, every new sequel series wants to be the next Zeta.

The UC is Gundam's main money-maker, and the AUs are very much intended to push people towards it and quite successful at doing so. They are, in very real terms, a sideshow meant to get your attention before redirecting it to The Main Event. That's why most of them don't get sequels or spinoffs and why the ones that do generally aren't priority activities for Sunrise's studios.
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MythSearcher
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

Seto Kaiba wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:42 pm They're meant to be one-and-done titles that introduce Gundam to new viewers with any who want more eventually gravitating towards other titles and ending up with the UC.
They tried to make them longer titles at least some times, like SEED obviously is trying to have much more than one off from the beginning, just that it didn't work as well as UC.
AGE is likely the same, just that it worked even worse.
Wing is one of those strange cases, they did try to prolong it, but the narrative really isn't helping.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

I think the only setting they keep it going on aside from UC, albeit rarely animate, is SD Gundam Gaiden (although there was long pause after W). It help that the setting has pretty loose continuity with multiverse and such.

But of course, SD is always a sideshow and never the main attraction by itself.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

Kuruni wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:43 am I think the only setting they keep it going on aside from UC, albeit rarely animate, is SD Gundam Gaiden (although there was long pause after W). It help that the setting has pretty loose continuity with multiverse and such.

But of course, SD is always a sideshow and never the main attraction by itself.
Well, the SD Sengoku and Sangoku are both really long running and I have no idea about the SD Knight part because it's a mess. (and then the Sengoku back story had Mk-III ported to that world and becoming Knight Gundam & Satan Gundam and then recombining to form Superior Dragon.)

But CE is still ongoing, it was not even in hiatus with all the Astray series and the main reason that the movie was on hiatus was because Fukuda insisted on having his wife write the story but she was on death bed and eventually died.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

MythSearcher wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:29 am They tried to make them longer titles at least some times, like SEED obviously is trying to have much more than one off from the beginning, just that it didn't work as well as UC.
It might look that way in hindsight, but it's not quite accurate.

Like the other AUs, Gundam SEED was developed and initially produced to be a one-and-done series. The show's unexpectedly strong viewership numbers and merchandise sales prompted Sunrise to quickly greenlight Gundam SEED Destiny as a sequel. Some of the staff may have thought that the Cosmic Era could turn into a long-runner like the Universal Century when Destiny went into production, and despite strong viewership the performance of the sequel's all-important merchandise line were only a fraction of SEED's and its momentum died there. The CE stumbled to its finish with the Stargazer OVA in '06 and that was the end of its unexpected second wind.

Essentially, SEED and SEED Destiny repeated the same phenomenon as Zeta and ZZ in terms of the fast sequel based on excellent viewership numbers, but where ZZ was able to keep the momentum up CE faltered with Destiny.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

Another factor in ZZ is the fact the story itself isn't exactly concluded
Spoiler
Amuro and Char are still around, and Sayla express justified concern of his ambitions.
Of course the story was originally supposed to tie up all loose ends, and was only given a movie partway through the show.

Really no other series ends with an open ending like Zeta and ZZ , so it makes sense they start off as a one and done deal. Which to be fair is better than a story with no conclusion.

So does this mean that CE was the most popular AU? 00 and Wing seemed very popular and all they got were movies.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

Seto Kaiba wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:18 pm It might look that way in hindsight, but it's not quite accurate.

Like the other AUs, Gundam SEED was developed and initially produced to be a one-and-done series. The show's unexpectedly strong viewership numbers and merchandise sales prompted Sunrise to quickly greenlight Gundam SEED Destiny as a sequel. Some of the staff may have thought that the Cosmic Era could turn into a long-runner like the Universal Century when Destiny went into production, and despite strong viewership the performance of the sequel's all-important merchandise line were only a fraction of SEED's and its momentum died there. The CE stumbled to its finish with the Stargazer OVA in '06 and that was the end of its unexpected second wind.

Essentially, SEED and SEED Destiny repeated the same phenomenon as Zeta and ZZ in terms of the fast sequel based on excellent viewership numbers, but where ZZ was able to keep the momentum up CE faltered with Destiny.
If you put it that way, MSG is made to be a one off series.
heck, Zeta is also so, they only decided to do ZZ in the middle of Zeta.
V is also pretty much one off other than being the distance future sequel to UC.
that pretty much marks the end of UC TV series other then the OVA series back adapted to TV. And of course none of the OVA or movies were made to have a sequel in mind.

What you are saying is only looking in hindsight for the UC series, but not the others, and call them one off at the moment of creation but still look at UC series as not being one off even when they are basically not made to have sequels in mind.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

MythSearcher wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:10 am If you put it that way, MSG is made to be a one off series.
It was.

Sunrise had no plans for any kind of continuation of the story when it was developed or at any point during its production. Indeed, the viewership numbers in the initial broadcast run were bad enough that they were quite worried they'd be facing cancellation before they ever got to finish it. It was only after it took off in reruns and the subsequent compilation movies that Sunrise ever entertained plans to develop a continuation.

MythSearcher wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:10 am heck, Zeta is also so, they only decided to do ZZ in the middle of Zeta.
... what? Zeta was developed as a sequel. At no point was it a stand-alone story. From the initial concepts to the finished story, it was built on the events and setting of the previous work to continue and expand upon its story.

MythSearcher wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:10 am V is also pretty much one off other than being the distance future sequel to UC.
True, but because it was developed as a far future sequel in continuity with the other UC works it is by definition not stand-alone.

MythSearcher wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:10 am What you are saying is only looking in hindsight for the UC series, but not the others, and call them one off at the moment of creation but still look at UC series as not being one off even when they are basically not made to have sequels in mind.
There is a key distinction here that you're missing.

While the original Mobile Suit Gundam was developed as a stand-alone series, the subsequent works developed in the Universal Century setting are fundamentally not so because they are sequels, prequels, and side stories which share that same setting and its history. They're in continuity with each other and their contributions to that shared setting and its history affect each other. After decades of new material building upon that shared universe, the sheer quantity of material and the increasing density of references to previous works in that continuity can be rather daunting for people who are new to Gundam as a property.

Sunrise's solution for introducing new viewers to Gundam without having to grapple with the problem of continuity lock-out caused by decades of past material is the AU stories. They use the signature Gundam formula and the same iconic tropes, but often with a new twist and in a new setting and history which is unconnected to any previous Gundam work. In this way, they can present an original Gundam story to the new and casual viewers without any of the narrative baggage that comes with continuity to other works. A story that can be enjoyed and fully understood on its own as a single piece. They're not intended to get sequels and become timelines like the UC because that would largely defeat the purpose of developing them as separate and self-contained stories for easy consumption by people who are seeing Gundam for the first time. SEED was not intended to have a sequel. It ended up with one, but only because its viewership numbers and merchandising performance were unexpectedly over 50% higher than anyone expected and were not just an all-time high for AU series but the best Gundam as a whole had done since Zeta and ZZ. Had SEED Destiny been able to keep that momentum up, CE could have unintentionally ended up a separate ongoing timeline like the UC.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

Seto Kaiba wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:48 pm While the original Mobile Suit Gundam was developed as a stand-alone series, the subsequent works developed in the Universal Century setting are fundamentally not so because they are sequels, prequels, and side stories which share that same setting and its history. They're in continuity with each other and their contributions to that shared setting and its history affect each other. After decades of new material building upon that shared universe, the sheer quantity of material and the increasing density of references to previous works in that continuity can be rather daunting for people who are new to Gundam as a property.
My point is, none of the shows are made to have a sequel in mind, the best they got is a sequel in the middle of the show.
or AGE, somehow got approval for 100 eps instead of 50 or less to begin with.
(and considering how it is 3 generations, it kinda is a show with a sequel planned in the beginning, just that it was showed as one super length show instead of 2 or 3 lots.)

They are always looking for making alternative timelines to have sequels if possible, and various movies, manga, novels are in place to keep the AUs going.
Yes, they want to make new shows so people don't get scared off by the vast back material, however, at the same time, they also want to build up to have new audience to keep paying like UC after a few decades.
Starting new series and then just keep milking people with existing models over and over isn't going to work as well as FG, and UC is obviously making more money by making more shows, they will need new models for AUs as well to make that happen, and for that, they will need new sequels.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

MythSearcher wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:11 pm My point is, none of the shows are made to have a sequel in mind, the best they got is a sequel in the middle of the show.
That's only really true for the first title in any given Gundam timeline, though.

MythSearcher wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:11 pm Yes, they want to make new shows so people don't get scared off by the vast back material, however, at the same time, they also want to build up to have new audience to keep paying like UC after a few decades.
Starting new series and then just keep milking people with existing models over and over isn't going to work as well as FG, and UC is obviously making more money by making more shows, they will need new models for AUs as well to make that happen, and for that, they will need new sequels.
I'm not sure where you got that idea, because it really doesn't align with Sunrise's management of Gundam's AUs at all.

Sunrise's approach to management of the Gundam franchise's AU titles could best be described as "one and done". They produce one story in that new alternate universe and when it's done they move on to the next alternate universe. They don't stick around to create more stories in that setting. They might put the denouement or epilogue into a separate animated feature like a movie or an OVA, but at the end of the day it's just one narrative and out. There's no attempt to develop further animation for that timeline. The Cosmic Era is the sole exception to this at present for reasons previously discussed, though the allegedly forthcoming movie is a return to form in that it's meant to be the denouement of the original story and wrap up Kira and Athrun's story for good. At no point are the AUs treated as a serious alternative to the UC. They're replaceable sideshows, and they are replaced fairly frequently.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

Well, it work for Toei (with both Kamen Rider and Super Senta)i. There's actually one big continuity ongoing, with crossover and character from older show show up from time to time, but the shows are mostly stand alone in nature.
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Re: zeta gundam overrated?

Seto Kaiba wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:43 pm I'm not sure where you got that idea, because it really doesn't align with Sunrise's management of Gundam's AUs at all.

Sunrise's approach to management of the Gundam franchise's AU titles could best be described as "one and done". They produce one story in that new alternate universe and when it's done they move on to the next alternate universe. They don't stick around to create more stories in that setting. They might put the denouement or epilogue into a separate animated feature like a movie or an OVA, but at the end of the day it's just one narrative and out. There's no attempt to develop further animation for that timeline. The Cosmic Era is the sole exception to this at present for reasons previously discussed, though the allegedly forthcoming movie is a return to form in that it's meant to be the denouement of the original story and wrap up Kira and Athrun's story for good. At no point are the AUs treated as a serious alternative to the UC. They're replaceable sideshows, and they are replaced fairly frequently.
It is pretty clear that they try to put up manga prequels and sequels for all the AUs, ans Sunrise isn't the company with the final say, Bandai is. And W's non-anime sequel is milking in on that AU pretty well for now.
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