Relative Cost of Ships in Gundam

[Underrated GM Custom]

In the past there's been discussion about the relative cost of Mobile Suits, for instance the Ball being roughly 1/4 the cost of a GM (Gundam Century) and the Guncannon being roughly 4x the cost of a Zaku II (MSV 3) and a Zaku II being 5x that of the Type 61 Tank (MS Museum). I've been curious if there's similar numbers out there for ships, either in relation to other ships, vehicles or MS. Do any of the publications mention relative costs for ships? Something along the lines of: a Magellan costing 2x as much as a Salamis or a Musai costing roughly 10x as much as a Zaku II?

[Seto Kaiba]

Not that I've seen... the ships tend to be mentioned only in passing in most of the Gundam books I have.

[Underrated GM Custom]

The only thing I've been able to dig up from older threads so far is that the Big Zam is worth approximately two Musai cruisers, which honestly seems like a steal for a super-weapon with several expensive I-Field generators. (viewtopic.php?t=14738)

Perhaps if we can find a relation between the Big Zam and another MS such as the Zaku II then we might be able to approximate the cost of a Musai.

[MythSearcher]

The closest thing I can think of, not in terms of cost but in terms of combat capabilities, is that the Gwazine class is supposed to be equivalent to 8 Magellan class.(or "the Federation Battleship")
From the actual design and ship size, I am not convinced.
The overly large Gwadan class maybe, but not the Gwazine class.

[Mafty]

So is it stated how much the Pegasus class ships cost? Clearly they are more powerful than the Salamis and Magellan types. That being said the Pegasus class rarely seems to be utilized as an actual Flagship (The White Base doesn't count, because of the circumstances of them fleeing during an attack). Meanwhile the Grey Phantom and Spartan seem to operate independently of a fleet, granted they have enough power and resources on their own.

[Underrated GM Custom]

A Gwazine being worth 8 Magellans in combat, hmmm. It's a little high but maybe not too unreasonable. As I recall the Gwazine has a pretty good track record.

In operation Brittish the Tianem fleet lost 70% of their ships (including 22 Magellans) and in Loum they lost 36/48 Magellans; meanwhile Zeon fielded 4 Gwazines in both conflicts and only lost 2 Gwazines by Loum. Granted these numbers are from EB 39 so there's a lot of inflated numbers, plus Zeon had the MS advantage at this point even though the Federation fleet typically outnumbered them.

The Gwazine track record gets worse in Solomon and A Baoa Qu but they're losing the war by that point and they have to deal with Federation super weapons, Amuro, and depleting morale and a lack of experienced warfighters.

As for the Pegasus class it's a good question why none of them were used as Flagships. It seems the Federation didn't really make a 'Flagship' class until the Birmingham in 0083. The Pegasus class for the most part tend to be part of Autonomous units which is convenient when you're trying to write a narrative about a plucky young crew facing overwhelming odds.

[azrael]

A Gwazine being worth 8 Magellans in combat, hmmm. It's a little high but maybe not too unreasonable. As I recall the Gwazine has a pretty good track record.

"...in combat". That means nothing in terms of relative $$$ amounts. The Gwazine is both a battleship and MS carrier. A Magellan-class is just a battleship. MS carrier capabilities were brought in as an afterthought. The function of a Gwazine is greatly expanded because it can be a battleship and carrier in one package. It's like saying F-22 is worth like 5 F-15s in combat but the actual cost is only about 15% more than a F-15EX.

[Seto Kaiba]

As for the Pegasus class it's a good question why none of them were used as Flagships. It seems the Federation didn't really make a 'Flagship' class until the Birmingham in 0083. The Pegasus class for the most part tend to be part of Autonomous units which is convenient when you're trying to write a narrative about a plucky young crew facing overwhelming odds.

A "flagship" class would generally be an awful idea anyway... the last thing you want to do in war is telegraph to the enemy where your commanders in the theatre are by putting them on a big, showy, one-of-a-kind or no-more-than-one-per-fleet warship.

[Mafty]

Considering what happened at Konpei Island in 0083, that's probably why nobody wanted to make a Flagship Fleet, nevermind the Birmingham had zero mobile suit storage. Also that may be why the Pegasus ships never have any Earth Federation Ministers on them.

[MythSearcher]

A Gwazine being worth 8 Magellans in combat, hmmm. It's a little high but maybe not too unreasonable. As I recall the Gwazine has a pretty good track record.

In operation Brittish the Tianem fleet lost 70% of their ships (including 22 Magellans) and in Loum they lost 36/48 Magellans; meanwhile Zeon fielded 4 Gwazines in both conflicts and only lost 2 Gwazines by Loum. Granted these numbers are from EB 39 so there's a lot of inflated numbers, plus Zeon had the MS advantage at this point even though the Federation fleet typically outnumbered them.

The Gwazine track record gets worse in Solomon and A Baoa Qu but they're losing the war by that point and they have to deal with Federation super weapons, Amuro, and depleting morale and a lack of experienced warfighters.

As for the Pegasus class it's a good question why none of them were used as Flagships. It seems the Federation didn't really make a 'Flagship' class until the Birmingham in 0083. The Pegasus class for the most part tend to be part of Autonomous units which is convenient when you're trying to write a narrative about a plucky young crew facing overwhelming odds.

Consider there's only 8 Gwazine built and the 2nd ship was lost in a reentry test.(yes, it was designed to operate in atmosphere as well, but after the failed test they just ignore that option)
Yes, the Gwazines has to cover for a lot of combat capabilities to go against EFSF ships, but they probably do it with MS they carry and not directly in a cannon combat.
Thus when EFSF has more operating AA fire and their own MS, Gwazine's effectiveness dropped a LOT.

If we look at Zeon's side, they also have individual Musais working alone. Cruisers are already able to become flag ships irl, and Musai is actually similar in size and lighter than Pegasus class, so Pegasus as flag ship is pretty reasonable.

So is it stated how much the Pegasus class ships cost? Clearly they are more powerful than the Salamis and Magellan types. That being said the Pegasus class rarely seems to be utilized as an actual Flagship (The White Base doesn't count, because of the circumstances of them fleeing during an attack). Meanwhile the Grey Phantom and Spartan seem to operate independently of a fleet, granted they have enough power and resources on their own.

Spartan aside, both WB and Grey Phantom work as the mother ship of test unit(s), they are in secret operation and not direct combat and work more like a transport ship than a combat ship. Yes, circumstances made it so that they needed to combat, but they were both not assigned as such before stuff happens.

A "flagship" class would generally be an awful idea anyway... the last thing you want to do in war is telegraph to the enemy where your commanders in the theatre are by putting them on a big, showy, one-of-a-kind or no-more-than-one-per-fleet warship.

Would be fun if you have a class of small ship named "Flagship" just to mess with your enemies.

"This is the 9th false flag we took down, man their intel is really good, I think we decrypted their code incorrectly."

[Underrated GM Custom]

Of the Pegasus class I think only the Thoroughbred was in the role of a command ship or flagship, it had two dedicated Salamis cruisers under its charge during its initial operations when it had RX 78-4 and -5. Come to think of it, during the peace negotiations in Grenada at the end of the story the Chivvay had two Musai's in their squadron.

The 0083 version of the Salamis seems to draw heavily from the Magellan's gun layout, I wonder if there's any lines in the 0083 publications (or perhaps Sentinel) that mention the cost increase revising a Salamis or Magellan.

[MythSearcher]

Of the Pegasus class I think only the Thoroughbred was in the role of a command ship or flagship, it had two dedicated Salamis cruisers under its charge during its initial operations when it had RX 78-4 and -5. Come to think of it, during the peace negotiations in Grenada at the end of the story the Chivvay had two Musai's in their squadron.

The 0083 version of the Salamis seems to draw heavily from the Magellan's gun layout, I wonder if there's any lines in the 0083 publications (or perhaps Sentinel) that mention the cost increase revising a Salamis or Magellan.

Well, irl any ship with enough communication capabilies can become a flagship. It is usually the largest ship for morale purposes but not necessary. You only need an extra room for the commander of the fleet to take charge in afterall.

[Mafty]

True, in most Gundam series the high ranking Federation/or Federation stand in officers don't have their own ships( In SEED George Allster is on a generic Nelson Class Ship, in CCA Adenauer Paraya is on a Clop instead of the Ra Callium, etc) Really the only notable flagship is the Birmingham. It seems more common for the enemy factions to put their high ranking leaders on their own ships( Bask had the Dogosse Giar, Haman had multiple Flagships at her disposal and her commanders all had customized versions of the Endra Cruiser, Tassilo had his own customized Amalthea class flagship, Bloodman had the Amansel and Rasso had the Gabera, etc).

[azrael]

Well, irl any ship with enough communication capabilies can become a flagship. It is usually the largest ship for morale purposes but not necessary. You only need an extra room for the commander of the fleet to take charge in afterall.

Technically, any ship the fleet commander plants their flag is the "flagship". Over the centuries, that ship became the strongest, or fastest, or largest, or shiniest in the the fleet.

[MythSearcher]

Technically, any ship the fleet commander plants their flag is the "flagship". Over the centuries, that ship became the strongest, or fastest, or largest, or shiniest in the the fleet.

Technically yes, but you need enough communications capabilities to give commands or it doesn't really work for the fleet commander.
I guess in the early days it means waving flags because that is the only way of communication back then.(shouting doesn't work well once you are further apart)

[Seto Kaiba]

Technically yes, but you need enough communications capabilities to give commands or it doesn't really work for the fleet commander.
I guess in the early days it means waving flags because that is the only way of communication back then.(shouting doesn't work well once you are further apart)

True, but the necessary communications hardware usually isn't a concern on modern warships. Most any warship has the necessary equipment to coordinate a multi-ship taskforce at the very least. Larger warships are favored simply because there's more real estate and personnel on hand for managing all that administrative work that comes with the logistical, strategic, and tactical management of a larger force. In short, it's really more about office space than anything, though even that is a shrinking concern in the digital age thanks to the replacement of paper charts and records with electronic ones.

[MythSearcher]

True, but the necessary communications hardware usually isn't a concern on modern warships. Most any warship has the necessary equipment to coordinate a multi-ship taskforce at the very least. Larger warships are favored simply because there's more real estate and personnel on hand for managing all that administrative work that comes with the logistical, strategic, and tactical management of a larger force. In short, it's really more about office space than anything, though even that is a shrinking concern in the digital age thanks to the replacement of paper charts and records with electronic ones.

Yes, that's why I said any ship with enough communication capabilities can become a flagship.
A larger ship has the advantage of having more room, more stable and less likely to be sunk in combat, but it is also not uncommon that you have to split your fleet into small groups and each required their own flagship...

[Mafty]

It actually seems to work better when each group has Mass Produced ships that can kind of stand on their own. The Endra class from ZZ seems like a good example of this. It's a large, modern ship that can house a number of different personnel and Mobile Suits. Plus it is shown to have space for large meeting room, and even laboratories for use by the Newtype Corps.

It actually seems like Second UC utilized this a lot more with ships on both sides of the conflict as the Clop and Ra Callium class are both quite large and well equipped, as are many ships from the Crossbone Vanguard sand Zanscare empire.