L-Gaim and Five Star Stories

[Mafty]

So are L-Gaim and Five Star Stories connected in any way? I’ve heard some rumors that they’re part of the same universe. The stories themselves have some themes and mech designs in common(though FSS seems to have more fantastical elements tied to the mech’s), so has Nagano ever officially commented on this?

[Seto Kaiba]

So are L-Gaim and Five Star Stories connected in any way? I’ve heard some rumors that they’re part of the same universe. The stories themselves have some themes and mech designs in common(though FSS seems to have more fantastical elements tied to the mech’s), so has Nagano ever officially commented on this?

Heavy Metal L-Gaim and Five Star Stories aren't a part of the same universe.

Sunrise had Mamoru Nagano do both the character design and mechanical design for Heavy Metal L-Gaim and in the process he also developed a lot of the material for the show's setting to provide justifications for various stylistic choices, though the actual screenplay was written by others. Yoshiyuki Tomino was strongly opposed to certain ideas that Mamoru Nagano had for the setting (most notably, the bio-androids called fatimas) and there was a fair amount of friction between the two. As a result, Nagano was unhappy with how the series turned out and because resources were allocated to Zeta Gundam's development while L-Gaim was still in production he felt that his series had gotten the short shrift.

Rather than just fuming unproductively, Mamoru Nagano decided that he'd put all the material he developed for that series into practice by telling the story the way he wanted to... and the result was the Five Star Stories.

He refined a lot of his L-Gaim designs, and the events of the L-Gaim story broadly parallel one specific conflict in the Five Star Stories setting called the Majestic Stand, though his setting and story are much MUCH broader than what L-Gaim was.

[MythSearcher]

That being said, two(or three? don't remember, only remembering Daba along with some female character. L-Gaim was over 2 decades ago when I watch it and I haven't finished the series, most of the info I get are from SRW and other than Daba you really don't have to use other characters from the show. Can't remember if Lilith was in that scene or not.) characters from L-Gaim did make cameo appearance in FFS as passing-bys, though no way involved in the story.(Easter egg level and no where indicating its the same universe)

It is fun that while even Tomino apparently also claims L-Gaim was a semi-disposable show before Gundam(Zeta's LD notes), the show was extended by 4 eps. from its original 50 eps plan.

So are L-Gaim and Five Star Stories connected in any way? I’ve heard some rumors that they’re part of the same universe. The stories themselves have some themes and mech designs in common(though FSS seems to have more fantastical elements tied to the mech’s), so has Nagano ever officially commented on this?

BTW, from the Japanese wikiepedia, it seems like the L-Gaim-2 Mook had a timeline extended to "a" Five Star universe, but that is a Pentagona star system with 5 planets instead of five stars like the current one.(Since the kanji 星 is used for both planets[惑星, confusing star, from the fact that they follow retrograde courses] and stars[恒星] it is quite common to have the translation error)

[Seto Kaiba]

That being said, two(or three? don't remember, only remembering Daba along with some female character. L-Gaim was over 2 decades ago when I watch it and I haven't finished the series, most of the info I get are from SRW and other than Daba you really don't have to use other characters from the show. Can't remember if Lilith was in that scene or not.) characters from L-Gaim did make cameo appearance in FFS as passing-bys, though no way involved in the story.(Easter egg level and no where indicating its the same universe)

There are a lot more connections than that... given that the Majestic Stand basically is another version of the Heavy Metal L-Gaim story, though the names have been changed for reasons of copyright. Daba Myroad being replaced by Label Judah (who like Daba was a prince of a vanquished nation), Oldna Ppossoidal's equivalent being a similar artificial body double Upandora Raymu with the actual Emperor literally having Ppossoidal's name spelled backwards (Ladios Sopp) as his alias. etc. etc.

I don't recall any Heavy Metals showing up in an unaltered form, but a lot of the most important Mortar Headds are aesthetic updates of the Heavy Metals, some of which even share the same name. The L-Gaim sees some reuse as the Trio de Colus's flag MH "Junchoon", the Ashura Temple shows up as an experimental Mejojo MH, the Auge and original Auge show up with their original names intact, with the original Auge as an ancient "Machine Messiah" and the Auge being Amaterasu's knockoff of it, Bat-shu being tweaked and becoming the signature MH of the Black Knight, etc.

[Kuruni]

Fun trivia. According to Japabese SRW Wiki (citing 角川書店ザ・テレビジョン別冊エルガイムII), in Nagano's vision, we never see the real Poseidal . Amandra is yet another shadow general who's closer to real one than Mian.

[Seto Kaiba]

Fun trivia. According to Japabese SRW Wiki (citing 角川書店ザ・テレビジョン別冊エルガイムII), in Nagano's vision, we never see the real Poseidal . Amandra is yet another shadow general who's closer to real one than Mian.

Which, I suppose, has its echo in Five Star Stories in that Emperor Amaterasu is a higher-dimensional lifeform who is manifesting as several separate entities including (primarily) Emperor Amaterasu dis Gran Grees Eidas LXXXIV but also as Diver's Guild chairwoman Mel Rince Urasetama, minister Agari-no-Kimi, a female verison of himself (that he calls "Lady Sopp" when he's not taking that form himself), and several other unspecified manifestations. The big bad of the Majestic Stand - the FSS equivalent of Oldna Ppossoidal - is the most mundane of the lot, being a fatima lookalike engineered to be a body double and decoy.

[Arsarcana]

Another amusing bit of mecha trivia is that despite FSS having its own equivalent to the Original Auge (the aforementioned 'Machine Messiah' Auge), Amaterasu's Knight of Gold 2 wound up serving the equivalent role in the Majestic Stand, being built from parts of Amaterasu's knockoff model and having the requisite shiny gold (literally) paintjob. I'm pretty sure that KoG2 being built out of the knockoff Auge only happened because Nagano wanted to make the references to the earlier series as obvious as possible.

And if you want even more continuity screw, Nagano created a standalone film called Gothicmade which he's adamantly refused to allow a home media release of. He started retconning FSS elements to match things from the film, so FSS has bleed-over from two separate directions.

[Mafty]

FSS really seems to be Nagano's Magnum Opus, especially if he's trying to tie older and newer works to it. It's also interesting that there seem to be L-Gaim references both to and in other Tomino works, despite Nagano being the driving force behind the project. For instance Kyao is basically recycled twenty years later as Bello in Overman King Gainer, Gavlet Gabulae would later see an Expy in Mashmyre Cello in Gundam ZZ, etc. There's also the case of Nagano referencing Tominos work with a blonde character named Chai Char in L-Gaim and one of the Motar Headds being named the Jagd Mirage like the Jagd Doga in CCA (I honestly don't know the series well enough to know which was introduced first).

[Arsarcana]

I'm pretty sure the Jagd Doga predates the Jagd Mirage by a couple years. Seeing how Jagd is a German word and means 'Hunt(ing)' the shared name is likely to be a coincidence, especially as the AKD also has the Wunder Schätze and the Wolke Schätze which have obviously Germain names.

Bonus crossover points, the latter of those two is another spin on the L-Gaim, the Mk. II in this case. And then there's the White Mirage (or possibly Weiss Mirage) which started out as Nagano's design for the Double Zeta.

But yes, FSS does seem to be his magnum opus. Now if only he'd consent to release Gothicmade in a way that people who didn't live in Japan during a very limited time window can actually see...

[MythSearcher]

...and one of the Motar Headds being named the Jagd Mirage like the Jagd Doga in CCA (I honestly don't know the series well enough to know which was introduced first).

Pretty sure they got Jagd part from German and very likely from Jagdpanzers(Hunting tank), Jagdpanther and Jagdtiger.
Considering most mecha designers draw inspiration from military vehicles.

Jäger is hunter so you also have the name Panzerjäger (Tank hunter) for lighter variants.
(and you likely have the MS-14Jg named as such for similar reason as the above.)

In English they are called Tank destroyers.

Fun trivia. According to Japabese SRW Wiki (citing 角川書店ザ・テレビジョン別冊エルガイムII), in Nagano's vision, we never see the real Poseidal . Amandra is yet another shadow general who's closer to real one than Mian.

Which, I suppose, has its echo in Five Star Stories in that Emperor Amaterasu is a higher-dimensional lifeform who is manifesting as several separate entities including (primarily) Emperor Amaterasu dis Gran Grees Eidas LXXXIV but also as Diver's Guild chairwoman Mel Rince Urasetama, minister Agari-no-Kimi, a female verison of himself (that he calls "Lady Sopp" when he's not taking that form himself), and several other unspecified manifestations. The big bad of the Majestic Stand - the FSS equivalent of Oldna Ppossoidal - is the most mundane of the lot, being a fatima lookalike engineered to be a body double and decoy.

Infinite plot big bad.
Every time the protagonists defeats someone, just say they defeated only the body double of the big bad.
Hey, you don't even need to have a big bad, the protagonist can be the same person, just a different copy or maybe the original coming back to clean up after him/herself.

Come to think of it, I do remember this somewhere... *sarcasm

[Seto Kaiba]

FSS really seems to be Nagano's Magnum Opus, especially if he's trying to tie older and newer works to it.

It's definitely his passion project...

[...] one of the Motar Headds being named the Jagd Mirage like the Jagd Doga in CCA (I honestly don't know the series well enough to know which was introduced first).

"Jagd" is one of those foreign words that Japanese mechanical designers just adore.

Gundam's Jagd Doga came first by several years. The Jagd Mirage first appeared in Book VIII and that went to print in the mid-90's. There's no connection between 'em though.

Infinite plot big bad.
Every time the protagonists defeats someone, just say they defeated only the body double of the big bad.
Hey, you don't even need to have a big bad, the protagonist can be the same person, just a different copy or maybe the original coming back to clean up after him/herself.

Come to think of it, I do remember this somewhere... *sarcasm

Lucky then that Amaterasu is, if anything, the Big Good of the Five Star Stories... at least until you get to the Majestic Stand where he's arguably the Big Bad in the eyes of Label Judah and the rebels, until it's revealed that the Emperor isn't the Emperor and Amaterasu orders the remaining Mirage Knights into battle against their own nation.

[Underrated GM Custom]

Bonus crossover points, the latter of those two is another spin on the L-Gaim, the Mk. II in this case. And then there's the White Mirage (or possibly Weiss Mirage) which started out as Nagano's design for the Double Zeta.

Fascinating. I'm not familiar with FSS so I did a quick look on the White Mirage and would have never guessed it was originally a proposed Double Zeta design. Looking at some of the kits I wonder if the White Glint from Armored Core is a reference/homage to the White Mirage.

[Seto Kaiba]

Fascinating. I'm not familiar with FSS so I did a quick look on the White Mirage and would have never guessed it was originally a proposed Double Zeta design. Looking at some of the kits I wonder if the White Glint from Armored Core is a reference/homage to the White Mirage.

A lot - and I mean A LOT - of Mamoru Nagano's unused designs from other works found their way into FSS along with a host of designs that he wasn't happy with the final versions of in published works.

He's kind of like Shoji Kawamori in that respect. A lot of Kawamori's unused concept designs eventually find their way into Macross in a similar manner.

[MythSearcher]

He's kind of like Shoji Kawamori in that respect. A lot of Kawamori's unused concept designs eventually find their way into Macross in a similar manner.

His GP03 designs definitely find his way into Macross as Battle 7.

[Quiddity]

FSS really seems to be Nagano's Magnum Opus, especially if he's trying to tie older and newer works to it. It's also interesting that there seem to be L-Gaim references both to and in other Tomino works, despite Nagano being the driving force behind the project. For instance Kyao is basically recycled twenty years later as Bello in Overman King Gainer, Gavlet Gabulae would later see an Expy in Mashmyre Cello in Gundam ZZ, etc. There's also the case of Nagano referencing Tominos work with a blonde character named Chai Char in L-Gaim and one of the Motar Headds being named the Jagd Mirage like the Jagd Doga in CCA (I honestly don't know the series well enough to know which was introduced first).

Beyond this, a lot of core elements of the end game of Gundam ZZ seem like a redo of L-Gaim. The enemy force is led by a woman (Haman in ZZ, Poseidal/Mian in L-Gaim) who has a male subordinate rebel against her (Glemmy in ZZ, Giwaza in L-Gaim). Haman and Poseidal both have sequences in which they have a giant hologram of themselves appear over their planet while giving a speech to their subordinates. They both wear elaborate outfits for public appearances although I'll admit Poseidall's is far more over the top than Haman's is (and its likely that Poseidal's design inspired Dianna Soriel's in Turn A Gundam for her public appearances as the Queen of the Moonrace). The Cicero asteroid rebellion plot in ZZ seems to be a direct takeoff of the Palarta Star asteroid rebellion in L-Gaim. Quwasan Olibee and Ple Two seem to be expies of each other in a sense that they are powerful female higher ups on the enemy military side who are subjected to a lot of mental torment and come to the hero's side at the very end. While they have different hair colors, the design of Roux Louka, with the long hair and bangs seems inspired by that of Amu from L-Gaim. Also just overall in tone, but L-Gaim and ZZ are more light hearted than the shows made around them, although are serious at times.

Also interesting of note is that L-Gaim's Gavlet Gablae was not the first time Tomino used that name, a minor villainous character who appears in around 3-4 episodes of Blue Gale Xabungle was also called Gavlet Gabale. A rare instance of Tomino reusing the same name for 2 different characters.

[False Prophet]

When was the last time Nagano worked on a Gundam title, be it anime, manga or MSV? And beside Gothicmade, which tied into FSS somehow, did he design anything for any anime after he was done with Brain Powered?

Also, since we're talking about Nagano recycling things, did anything from Vifam show up in FSS? I sometimes forget that Vifam even exists.

[MythSearcher]

When was the last time Nagano worked on a Gundam title, be it anime, manga or MSV? And beside Gothicmade, which tied into FSS somehow, did he design anything for any anime after he was done with Brain Powered?

Also, since we're talking about Nagano recycling things, did anything from Vifam show up in FSS? I sometimes forget that Vifam even exists.

I don't think he participated in anything Gundam related after CCA.
He was involved in CCA but it is pretty clear that the higher-ups do not like him, at least they do not approve of him designing the main Gundam. After they pulled the same stunt twice(ZZ and CCA) where Tomino approved of his designs only later to be barred from higher-ups, I don't think he is interested in working on Gundam anymore(especially when his name didn't even show up on anything in CCA), especially when Tomino also got really tired of Gundam at the time and others aren't really in good terms with him.(remember one of the reasons the higher-ups barred his designs is because others aren't supporting him and they aren't in good relations.)
Like I said somewhere earlier, his recent interview, if you take it with those events back then, makes him look kinda arrogant and likely others may see him getting favour from Tomino and such because he is good in flattering.(As he said himself he greeted them and they favoured him, and he does not understand why others couldn't understand such simple etiquette.)

[Mafty]

Nagano seems to be quite flexible career wise; According to the Anime Encyclopedia, in addition to his Mecha design and writing, he's also a Musician and Fashion Designer. So it may simply be that he has other paths to focus on than mech designs. Which is sort of a shame because his designs are actually quite unique; again how much of this is Naganos own attitude, and how much is corporate politics is not clear.

Does anyone know if Nagano designed the mechs for Hi Streamer? They are indeed a very unusual design for Gundam, to the point it's hard to find lineart of them anywhere. Tomino's treatment from the novel was rejected, so it seems like the mech design's may have been as well.

As for Vifam/ FSS there really isn't that much of a cross-over in designs; though Nagano was a newcomer to the industry at this point; he was 23 years old, and had an Assistant Mechanical Design credit for the first 16 episodes. So it's possible he didn't have as much freedom in designing the mechs. That being said the Barunja does bare some slight resemblance to the Wug from Vifam.

[PowerdGNFlag]

Does anyone know if Nagano designed the mechs for Hi Streamer? They are indeed a very unusual design for Gundam, to the point it's hard to find lineart of them anywhere. Tomino's treatment from the novel was rejected, so it seems like the mech design's may have been as well.

We actually know for one that this is not the case, since the illustrations for the original release of Hi-Streamer (and by extension the mechanical designs) were made by Yukinobu Hoshino. This old thread should be helpful in this regard, in particular Mark's comment here.

[MythSearcher]

Nagano seems to be quite flexible career wise; According to the Anime Encyclopedia, in addition to his Mecha design and writing, he's also a Musician and Fashion Designer. So it may simply be that he has other paths to focus on than mech designs. Which is sort of a shame because his designs are actually quite unique; again how much of this is Naganos own attitude, and how much is corporate politics is not clear.

If anything, he made it sounded like he was the arrogant bastard himself. Well, not for the past few decades but at least for the past few years after his interview then.(I don't think he made those comments before.)
I didn't even thought of that the first time I read those comments in the interview and simply accepted it that he was polite and that along with his skills earned respect from Tomino. It was only later when I was answering some questions about the ditched designs of ZZ and CCA that I can connect the dots and understand why other production team members aren't in good terms with him.
It might be that he is still sour about losing the work all these years, it might also be that other designers at the time did became jealous of him with all of his talents. But to tell the truth, I don't really think he is THAT good at the time with Mk-II and ZZ's original designs, especially when you can also see other designers work which are much more refined. Well, maybe it is just because I am a layman without design senses so I cannot see what's good or not, but surely if you do not clean up your work and submit a draft like work while others are submitting refined designs, you are not likely to get the job because the higher-ups will think you didn't put your heart into the work.(and they have no idea if the designs are good or bad, that is not their job but the director's job.)

As for Vifam/ FSS there really isn't that much of a cross-over in designs; though Nagano was a newcomer to the industry at this point; he was 23 years old, and had an Assistant Mechanical Design credit for the first 16 episodes. So it's possible he didn't have as much freedom in designing the mechs. That being said the Barunja does bare some slight resemblance to the Wug from Vifam.

Now, in all respect, he surely is one of the earlier mechanical designers who seems to have put more time in research into real world machines and make anything looking semi-realistic.
As he himself stated, he was working on minor mechs(mostly vehicles and machines not humanoid) because he makes them look realistic. While not really up to today's standard of realistic, it was the 80's and no one was expecting them to be.

Does anyone know if Nagano designed the mechs for Hi Streamer? They are indeed a very unusual design for Gundam, to the point it's hard to find lineart of them anywhere. Tomino's treatment from the novel was rejected, so it seems like the mech design's may have been as well.

We actually know for one that this is not the case, since the illustrations for the original release of Hi-Streamer (and by extension the mechanical designs) were made by Yukinobu Hoshino. This old thread should be helpful in this regard, in particular Mark's comment here.

I always love it how Nagano kept saying Tomino approved of his designs and only the higher-ups dumped them, and then Tomino did not even considered using his designs in both of the novels, making Nagano words seems so, I don't know, dubious?
(Yeah, it might be him refusing to let Tomino use the designs in those, we just don't know and both Tomino and Nagano didn't talk about it.)