Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

[Jameedaark]

Just gonna throw this out there, but the idea that the colonies are kind of overcrowded sh*tholes is pretty consistent with the whole Universal Century setting being about the Earth elite kicking all the poor people off the planet into a bunch of spaceborne shanty towns so they can live in luxury. That allegation that colonists are second class citizens at best goes all the way from the original series thru Hathaway's Flash.

The few colonies we see up close are the relatively nice ones... either ones that are still under construction and not yet fully populated, ones that are abandoned slums, or ones that are governmental capitals where the political and social elite live. Most of the colonies are probably like that one Dort colony in IBO that was one massive highrise slum district where all the poor workers lived.

I agree

[Jameedaark]

Hi, the original oneill numbers on island 3 says millions, not a certain number. Furthermore, it is not clear whether he refers to two ballistically united colonies or one.
However, the calculations are quickly made and if you put 30 million in a colony of 32km x 6.5 you have the density of the worst city in Bangladesh. If you like huge numbers, I prefer to follow Mark Simmons' more reasonable line.

You probably only read this: https://space.nss.org/o-neill-cylinder- ... ettlement/

The original numbers I referred to is from this:(which is also quoted in the linked I gave up there)
https://space.nss.org/the-colonization- ... oday-1974/
Please see table 1, Model 4.
A double unit can house 0.2 – 20 x 10^6 population, thus 2 to 20 million in double units, and 1 to 10 million for each cylinder.

He also proposed an even larger cylinder in the earlier paragraph, one with a 16km radius(so basically it is as wide as the model 4's length, or five times as big) which can, in maximum capacity, hold 700 million and call it the ecological limit.

The argument of the population in relation to nuclear energy makes no sense. I speak of density of people per km2.

Food is a problem.
Apart from the fact that there are no farm colonies but it is the rings with the dozens of rotating farms that each colony has, which supply the colony. Furthermore, shipping food from the earth for billions of people is absurd and would cost a monstrous amount.
Furthermore, it is said that the colonies were also exploited for food, indeed they were the ones who sent food to the earth.

I read this post: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17685&p=391866&hil ... on#p391862

For me there are many discutible numbers:
- SIDE 3 has, in many works, 40 colonies.
- Side 5 (Loum) have 42 colonies and is in a Lagragian point instable, like SIDE3, because L1 and L2 are instable points.
- The listed numbers of 40 for every other side is arbitrary. I think that side 1,2,4,6 are about 80-120 colonies each, if not more.
- Side 3 is said in Gundam first serie to have numbers of 1/30th of the rest federation, so 300 million people at most.
- Lunar cities 0.8 billions is riddicolous.
- In Gundam movies is said that half people is in space, so in 0079 6,5 billions on earth and 6,5 in space is more reasonable.

I think many numbers in many books are at most, ZOINKS.
I prefere the suggestion of Mark.
Are far far more reasonable and more coincident with many Gundam anime and book, and common sense.
Bye

If you take the numbers with what the anime shows you the colonies to be like, low density havens, yes, you can never support that much people. Like I have calculated in that post, each person gets about a square ft, everyone will be squeezed to death before anything happens.

In the same O'Neil's proposal, he also gave research of why he thought that is the ecological limit.
"Calculations based on his figures, but assuming an ideal twelve-month season, indicate that the colonies should be able to support 143 people per hectare with a diet of 3000 calories, 52 grams of usable protein and 4.3 pounds of total food per person per day [ref 9]. Much of the protein would come from poultry and pork."

This is way more than my needs, and average calories is around 2,400~2,500 per person on the higher end, let's say that is redundancy in case of accident.
This is still "the corresponding ecological limit for a full-size community would be 20 million people. At this limit, all the colonists would have a high standard of living, but in apartment-house living conditions, looking out over farmland."

Using only the farming area(the ring), the colonies can already support 13 million("For a community limit of 13-million people, the main cylinders could be kept free of agriculture.")

Using the "143 people per hectare" figure, 30 million people will only require 209790 hectares, or 2098 km^2 of agricultural area.
Using my multi-layered proposal, the farm lands can well be place in inner and outer layers of the colony, on top and bottom of the 116 layers, 2098 km^2 is just about 10 layers on average, much less than the living quarters' 116.
(116 layers may sound strange, but consider 116 story buildings, each around 350m in height.)
Using nuclear fusion to generate the power needed for the LED lights to grow crops, you no longer need to limit your planting area to the Sun's power, and while the inner layers might have less gravity, they get much more protection from radiation.
30 or maybe even 60 million(close types) are possible, just not what they showed in anime.(Not even the Ark Performance Gihren's Assassination Plan's high density Zoum city matches that kind of conditions)

Shipping food from Earth to space is absurd using today's technology, but in UC, they are already using thermonuclear rockets and launching heavy vehicles from Earth isn't a rare sight anymore.
Building Space warships on Earth and launching them to space is also pretty absurd with what we have today, but they can easily build and launch 80 ships with 10~60k tons payload to orbit in a year, each only a 2 stage rocket.(And the second stage is the payload itself) We have trouble launching 80 10 tons payload per year now.
Also, Earth doesn't have to support billions, they can have their own farm lands in the colonies, Earth only need to be the redundant supply line in case something fails.
This is already much better than the CE premise of PLANTS cannot grow their own crops, and their food supply is controlled completely by Earth.

That said, I am totally for the idea of having more colonies in each side. That would make the idea much cooler than packing as much people as possible into less colonies.
What I am saying here is just technological possibilities, not desirable ones.

- Side 3 is said in Gundam first serie to have numbers of 1/30th of the rest federation, so 300 million people at most.

No, Gihren said Side 3 only has 1/30 of EF's power, not man power, he is referring to more about economical and resources than population count.
It also has 1/10 of EFF's military power, but way less military personnel and vehicles than EFF.

Each person a square feet?
Are you serious?
By the way a colony of 16km of radius is never appeared in original Gundam...
And the Side 3 closed type are clearly smaller than the open type.
Like you see in sweetwater that is a closed and open united.

The common sense is for a greater number of colonies in L4 and L5 because are stable point, and a smaller number in L1, L2, L3, because are instable points.

And about multilayer farms, is a fascinating teory but is never seen in manga or anime of Gundam.
And in any case it would take place away from the inhabitants for which you would be heading.
Shipping food from the earth remains an absurdity, not tecnologically, but in economical view.
Hundrends of colonies can supply a in a ceratin number of colonies fails.
The fact that in war they launch normally many battleship or others, doesen't mean that is normal to send food from earth. Is probably the opposite, the colonies are exploited of food from earth.
Also I prefere think that Earth have 6,5 billions, like said in the Gundam Movies.
Each colony has many satellite farms of 130 acres each.

About Zion, I think that 2 billions of populatin is absurd. Mahal was evacuated and was about 4,5 millions.
If is a normal average colony in Zion, 4,5 x 40= 180 millions. I think 300 million, as said by Mark, is a goo estimation. If you have a person for every square foot, you don't have space for military facilities, and for many other things. And also because Zion is the elite of spacenoids, not a slum of bangladesh.

What you define technological possibilities are extreme, also for a fantasy world as Gundam.
I prefere more colonies, also because if a 325km" colony has 10 millions of inhabitants, is already cramped as hell!

[MythSearcher]

Each person a square feet?
Are you serious? :lol:

Yes and no.
I am simply doing a calculation of the area per person as given by the 30 million people filling the plains equal in area to the given dimensions of an O'Neil Cylinder, showing the absurdity of thinking they can fit them in one layer.

By the way a colony of 16km of radius is never appeared in original Gundam...
And the Side 3 closed type are clearly smaller than the open type.
Like you see in sweetwater that is a closed and open united.

The outer diameter might be, but basically all settings official or not viewed them as having the same diameter, so it might just have the same inner diameter.

The common sense is for a greater number of colonies in L4 and L5 because are stable point, and a smaller number in L1, L2, L3, because are instable points.

Yes, but do remember they have all the technology and means to dynamically stabilize them.
Also, unstable is a relative term, you still have decades before they move out of place.
Celestial stability is talking in terms of centuries, if not millions of years.

Of course L4 and 5(actually, L5 is most stable) should naturally be more stable and people will want to build there first, but once you introduce a certain density of clustered colonies into it, it won't be as stable anymore. So you probably won't get much more than other L points because the balance is just do delicate.

And about multilayer farms, is a fascinating teory but is never seen in manga or anime of Gundam.
And in any case it would take place away from the inhabitants for which you would be heading.

You don't need to show them. We have not been shown a lot of things, you actually never see any of the characters paying a visit to the toilets but you won't argue if they need to go to the toilet or not.
We haven't even see a lot of the mass transit in the colonies, and how the air locks really work, but we know of their existence.

Actually, we have not seen any of their food logistics nor most of the details of their colonies, so any theory is as good as others as long as it makes sense.
And I must say, anything giving you luxuriously wide living area isn't making sense to what they officially set the population to be.

Shipping food from the earth remains an absurdity, not tecnologically, but in economical view.
Hundrends of colonies can supply a in a ceratin number of colonies fails.
The fact that in war they launch normally many battleship or others, doesen't mean that is normal to send food from earth. Is probably the opposite, the colonies are exploited of food from earth.
Also I prefere think that Earth have 6,5 billions, like said in the Gundam Movies.
Each colony has many satellite farms of 130 acres each.

Depending on how they fail.
Being GG gassed and nuked in the beginning of OYW isn't really helping.

It is a fact that the Earth has much more farming area than it needs in the settings, and they seems to be at a technological point where nuclear fusion is so cheap that thermonuclear rockets are dirt cheap.
They also have SSTO planes going to and from Earth in various colonies similar to current passenger jets.
It'd be reasonable to project that they have the ability to have regular food trade from Earth to Space, just like our current economy does.

I have no problem of accepting Earth having somewhere around 5~8 billion population, about 30 years before OYW, there are already around 11 billion in the Earth sphere and 9 billion in space. Given that some moved back to Earth and you also have natural growth and probably illegal immigrants, gaining 2~3 billion in 20~30 years isn't that far fetched. IRL, it took about 40 years to grow from 3 billion to 6 billion, as people moved out, you probably have a surplus of resources on Earth so the birth rate may simply sky rocket for a while.
Also, given that they can simply estimate a 2 billion casualty for the colony drop at the beginning of OYW(later reduced to 200 million after the war when they reestablished communications and have the time and human power to survey the area), the Earth must have more than 2 billion people at the time, probably at least a few times more.

About Zion, I think that 2 billions of populatin is absurd. Mahal was evacuated and was about 4,5 millions.
If is a normal average colony in Zion, 4,5 x 40= 180 millions. I think 300 million, as said by Mark, is a goo estimation. If you have a person for every square foot, you don't have space for military facilities, and for many other things. And also because Zion is the elite of spacenoids, not a slum of bangladesh.

What you define technological possibilities are extreme, also for a fantasy world as Gundam.
I prefere more colonies, also because if a 325km" colony has 10 millions of inhabitants, is already cramped as hell!

Mahal is an outsider colony, that its immigrants only joined Zeon less than a year before the war. Some sources even suggested that there are numerous illegal, small colonies in Side 3 from the defectors of EF and cannot be officially counted to the Side 3 population before hand.
They chose Mahal to evacuate likely because they do not view them as equal and also it simply has less people in it.
The only thing we know is that both EF and Zeon has greatly reduced in population towards the end of OYW.
At least the semi-propaganda movie in UC0090 Gihren Assassination Plan showed that Zoum city's ghost town being lit by automatic lightings at night to disguise its emptiness.

A layered colony is a simple and fitting solution to the problem of 1 ft^2/person, it you have 116 layers, each person gets an average of 116 ft^2.(Think this is still small? Welcome to HK) Military facilities and other utilities are of course built otherwise and not included in this, like the farm layers I proposed.
You don't really have a land limit in space, you just build more structures to get more land. Having layers is actually at a certain level better than building multiple colonies, since you save a lot of radiation shielding material and thus save some of the structural strength and thus building materials. So instead of having an outer radius of 3.2km, you get something like 3.5km, and the radiation shielding is the same thickness but a bit heavier(since you have a larger radius) and you can already fit 3~10 times the people into the layers.
Works best for closed types so you do not need as much glass panels, but open types still work.
This can also kinda solve Tomino's nitpicking on 0080 ep 1. Where he said you should be able to see the other side of the colony instead of a blue sky. If it is a layered colony, you don't see the other side, but a fake blue sky ceiling of the next layer. (However, a layer is probably much less in height to cramp as much as possible into the colony, so Libot has to be a low density colony that has a higher layer height and less dense living area. Seeing they are all middle class like, still makes some sense)

[Seto Kaiba]

You don't need to show them. We have not been shown a lot of things, you actually never see any of the characters paying a visit to the toilets but you won't argue if they need to go to the toilet or not.
We haven't even see a lot of the mass transit in the colonies, and how the air locks really work, but we know of their existence.

Actually, we have not seen any of their food logistics nor most of the details of their colonies, so any theory is as good as others as long as it makes sense.

We can, in fact, say with certainty that there are not multi-layer colonies and that agricultural space is separate from living space in the typical colony... because we see in Gundam: the Origin that agricultural blocks are gravity block structures separate from the main body of the colony.

One of the key events that led to the Dawn Rebellion in UC 0077 was a Side 3 colony suffering the loss of one of their agricultural blocks due to an EFSF Salamis-class warship that ignored colony traffic control's order to yield to outbound traffic, clipped a civilian starliner, lost its main engine due to damage from the collision, and crashed into one of the colony's agricultural blocks resulting in the total loss of the ship and agricultural block.

[Jameedaark]

You don't need to show them. We have not been shown a lot of things, you actually never see any of the characters paying a visit to the toilets but you won't argue if they need to go to the toilet or not.
We haven't even see a lot of the mass transit in the colonies, and how the air locks really work, but we know of their existence.

Actually, we have not seen any of their food logistics nor most of the details of their colonies, so any theory is as good as others as long as it makes sense.

We can, in fact, say with certainty that there are not multi-layer colonies and that agricultural space is separate from living space in the typical colony... because we see in Gundam: the Origin that agricultural blocks are gravity block structures separate from the main body of the colony.

One of the key events that led to the Dawn Rebellion in UC 0077 was a Side 3 colony suffering the loss of one of their agricultural blocks due to an EFSF Salamis-class warship that ignored colony traffic control's order to yield to outbound traffic, clipped a civilian starliner, lost its main engine due to damage from the collision, and crashed into one of the colony's agricultural blocks resulting in the total loss of the ship and agricultural block.

I completely agree with you.

[Jameedaark]

"Mahal is an outsider colony, that its immigrants only joined Zeon less than a year before the war. Some sources even suggested that there are numerous illegal, small colonies in Side 3 from the defectors of EF and cannot be officially counted to the Side 3 population before hand."

MythSearcher, where do you find these infos about Mahal?

[MythSearcher]

We can, in fact, say with certainty that there are not multi-layer colonies and that agricultural space is separate from living space in the typical colony... because we see in Gundam: the Origin that agricultural blocks are gravity block structures separate from the main body of the colony.

One of the key events that led to the Dawn Rebellion in UC 0077 was a Side 3 colony suffering the loss of one of their agricultural blocks due to an EFSF Salamis-class warship that ignored colony traffic control's order to yield to outbound traffic, clipped a civilian starliner, lost its main engine due to damage from the collision, and crashed into one of the colony's agricultural blocks resulting in the total loss of the ship and agricultural block.

Origin isn't canon.
At least there are many alternative designed machines that are just similar but not the same, it doesn't work as a same reality as the original series.
The Author of Origin also said it is his own take on the story.

You also don't see the gravity blocks in some of the colonies, and since they are allowed to have different types of colonies, not all of them are the same.
At the same time, even if you have separated agricultural space, you can still have layered structures for living.
Like I said, there simply isn't enough space for the said population if it is not layered/high density skyscrapers filled colonies.

MythSearcher, where do you find these infos about Mahal?

Gundam Officials
I think the original of that info is from Mayfly of space, but I haven't listened to the radio drama, I am not exactly sure about that.

[Jameedaark]

We can, in fact, say with certainty that there are not multi-layer colonies and that agricultural space is separate from living space in the typical colony... because we see in Gundam: the Origin that agricultural blocks are gravity block structures separate from the main body of the colony.

One of the key events that led to the Dawn Rebellion in UC 0077 was a Side 3 colony suffering the loss of one of their agricultural blocks due to an EFSF Salamis-class warship that ignored colony traffic control's order to yield to outbound traffic, clipped a civilian starliner, lost its main engine due to damage from the collision, and crashed into one of the colony's agricultural blocks resulting in the total loss of the ship and agricultural block.

Origin isn't canon.
At least there are many alternative designed machines that are just similar but not the same, it doesn't work as a same reality as the original series.
The Author of Origin also said it is his own take on the story.

You also don't see the gravity blocks in some of the colonies, and since they are allowed to have different types of colonies, not all of them are the same.
At the same time, even if you have separated agricultural space, you can still have layered structures for living.
Like I said, there simply isn't enough space for the said population if it is not layered/high density skyscrapers filled colonies.

MythSearcher, where do you find these infos about Mahal?

Gundam Officials
I think the original of that info is from Mayfly of space, but I haven't listened to the radio drama, I am not exactly sure about that.

Origin is more canon than a teory on layered structures. Skycrapers are layered structures. We dont need more layers to put people.
Also we dont need colony of 30 millions. Is more simple to have more colonies.
Why complicate all?
In space they have manpower, technology and resources to built many enough colonies.
The problem is political, I suppose.
When the Federation stopped the contructions of colonies, for political decision and corruption, after some years the increasing of population and problems on colonies was the fuel for demonstration, contolism and ultimately the war, I think.

About Mahal, in Mayfly I didn't found nothing about Mahal and its origin and population...
Bye.

[MythSearcher]

Origin is more canon than a teory on layered structures. Skycrapers are layered structures. We dont need more layers to put people.

Skyscrapers are included in my layered structure options in case you didn't catch it.
The problem is just that they didn't even show that much skyscrapers in any of the shows, so I said you have to ignore any of the anime's image of the colonies that showed you a rather low density suburban/country side living conditions.

Also we dont need colony of 30 millions. Is more simple to have more colonies.
Why complicate all?
In space they have manpower, technology and resources to built many enough colonies.
The problem is political, I suppose.
When the Federation stopped the contructions of colonies, for political decision and corruption, after some years the increasing of population and problems on colonies was the fuel for demonstration, contolism and ultimately the war, I think.

Because I am just giving you the possibility of having that much people in one colony.
Like I said, I am totally for the idea of having more colonies.

The problem is, Gundam Officials P.441 also gave the number of open type having 20¬30 million capacity while closed type having double of that, and each Side has 40¬80 of these, so yes, the number is official.
This is also likely more of a misunderstanding in their interpretation of O'Neil's article I linked.
O'Neil proposed 20 million per double unit, they probably didn't pick up that part of the info and thought that it is for a single unit. Thus they have this strange naming of 1 colony is a Banchi(バンチ), and each Banchi has 20¬30 million capacity. (but using a 20¬25 million population per banchi to multiply the 40¬80 banchi in a Side to get the total population.)

So yes, discussing how they fit 30 million into a single colony is an official thing, but just dismissing it to be having more colonies isn't.
If you have a population of 10 million in each colony, and you have 80 colonies in 5 sides other than side 3(closed types double) and side 7(which is exactly 1 unfinished colony), you get 4 billion, Side 3 has 1.6 billion if you use 20 million in 80 colonies, you still only get a total of 5.6 billion, which is far from the official 9 billion in space in UC0050.(Since they stopped the space migration policy in UC0051, we can safely assume that they already have all the colonies by UC0050.)
Why complicate things? because official population counts is complicated.

If a banchi is a double unit, things are much better.

About Mahal, in Mayfly I didn't found nothing about Mahal and its origin and population...
Bye.

Like I said, I have not listened to that, I just assumed the original information is from it.
Gundam Officials P.454 gave the population of Mahal being 1.5 million(that is the evacuated population to create the colony laser), and P.349 gave the info about Cima and her fleet are all from Mahal, the outsider colony which is discriminated because they just migrated to Side 3, some are even rumoured to have no citizenship in Side 3.
I am pretty sure the info isn't originated from Gundam Officials, because it is just a huge collection of info with some rewrites.

The "outsider" discrimination is also seen in MS Igloo 603 manga, the pilot of GM Camouf is an "outsider".

[Deacon Blues]

Origin isn't canon.
At least there are many alternative designed machines that are just similar but not the same, it doesn't work as a same reality as the original series.
The Author of Origin also said it is his own take on the story.

Please tell me where it is EXPLICITLY stated that the Origin is not canon. I need an exact quote and or citation for this bullshit statement. If you're calling out the fact that the agriculture blocks were hit, keep in mind the original space colony artwork from the show depicts them as such so that event is really not a stretch.

Gundam Officials
I think the original of that info is from Mayfly of space, but I haven't listened to the radio drama, I am not exactly sure about that.

Like I said, I have not listened to that, I just assumed the original information is from it.
Gundam Officials P.454 gave the population of Mahal being 1.5 million(that is the evacuated population to create the colony laser), and P.349 gave the info about Cima and her fleet are all from Mahal, the outsider colony which is discriminated because they just migrated to Side 3, some are even rumoured to have no citizenship in Side 3.

Uh, were you misinterpreting something from that section? There is nothing in that section that refers to Mahal as an outsider colony or discrimination. The article states that "Most of the rapidly-built fleets consisted of individuals who lacked a family register and others who entered the country just before the start of the war (the latter are generally called a foreign legion)." It goes on to state that, "They were "rogue" men, many of who were subcontracted for construction and repair work from the Colony Public Corporation and were not satisfied with registering their family register with the Principality." Unless I missed something in there...

[MythSearcher]

Please tell me where it is EXPLICITLY stated that the Origin is not canon. I need an exact quote and or citation for this ZOINKS statement. If you're calling out the fact that the agriculture blocks were hit, keep in mind the original space colony artwork from the show depicts them as such so that event is really not a stretch.

Please tell me where on Earth can Origin is canon, it has a different MS design timeline for every single Federation MS, numbered differently, (Say, RX-78-02 instead of RX-78-2), and different specs.

I know we have very different views of canon, and I don't want to argue about that with you any more, you can think what you want and I can think what I want, I don't care if you call the Tomino novel version another canon or everything published by any of the related crew is canon. I have provided my source before, and you didn't agree, let's save time. You only have to agree that the technological development of the ORIGIN is obviously different from any of the other shows, and thus you cannot use it as a single source to support the technological developments.

Also, I have said that the agriculture blocks and the farming inside the colonies can co-exits, in fact, O'Neil's idea of the 20 million max capacity needs to have the population overseeing the farming fields in their own homes. If you have to double/triple the population, I can hardly think of any other way to do so but to keep the farms inside the colonies.

Uh, were you misinterpreting something from that section? There is nothing in that section that refers to Mahal as an outsider colony or discrimination. The article states that "Most of the rapidly-built fleets consisted of individuals who lacked a family register and others who entered the country just before the start of the war (the latter are generally called a foreign legion)." It goes on to state that, "They were "rogue" men, many of who were subcontracted for construction and repair work from the Colony Public Corporation and were not satisfied with registering their family register with the Principality." Unless I missed something in there...

外人部隊 is outsider team, I do not think I can misinterpret a direct translation.
P454 also said that Mahal received a lot of these outsiders, you might have missed that page in my post.

[Deacon Blues]

Please tell me where on Earth can Origin is canon, it has a different MS design timeline for every single Federation MS, numbered differently, (Say, RX-78-02 instead of RX-78-2), and different specs.

As if specs and whatnot haven't been all over from the beginning.

I know we have very different views of canon, and I don't want to argue about that with you any more, you can think what you want and I can think what I want, I don't care if you call the Tomino novel version another canon or everything published by any of the related crew is canon. I have provided my source before, and you didn't agree, let's save time. You only have to agree that the technological development of the ORIGIN is obviously different from any of the other shows, and thus you cannot use it as a single source to support the technological developments.

But you didn't provide a source for where it isn't. The material still exists out there just like every other show and none of them explicitly state that it is outside the norm. So quit telling everyone that it isn't, that's all that matters.

Also, I have said that the agriculture blocks and the farming inside the colonies can co-exits, in fact, O'Neil's idea of the 20 million max capacity needs to have the population overseeing the farming fields in their own homes. If you have to double/triple the population, I can hardly think of any other way to do so but to keep the farms inside the colonies.

Keeping them outside the colony makes more sense so that farms and what not aren't taking up space inside.

外人部隊 is outsider team, I do not think I can misinterpret a direct translation.
P454 also said that Mahal received a lot of these outsiders, you might have missed that page in my post.

I don't know if this is a language barrier issue or not, because I have no idea whether English is your native language. Please note, I'm not holding that against you, I'm just trying to see why you chose a bizarre literal/awkward way of phrasing it. 外人 means foreigner/alien Yes, it can mean outsider (and that is the old meaning of the word) in certain extents, but for the case of the Cima Fleet article, it's fairly evident their composition has them being labeled as "foreign legion." This is the same term that is applied to Ken Bederstadt in Lost War Chronicles. There's no such thing as an "outsider team" anyways (not in a military setting at least). It's quite stilted. Furthermore, there is still no evidence that Mahal has been labeled as an outside colony or is discriminated against because they "just got there". I think you inferred that from the context of the article, but also got a few things wrong with it. In fact, the article only goes so far as to state:

"Mahal was a colony located on the outskirts of Side 3. Known as an industrial colony, it also said that they accepted many illegal immigrants as a labor force. In order to turn Mahal into the Solar Ray System, 1.5 million inhabitants were forcibly evacuated. Yet, the reason why the colony was selected was not only due to its location at the edge of the Principality's territory but also because of the composition of its inhabitants. (The Cima Fleet, one of the units that injected poison gas into each of the Sides during the surprise attack of the One Week War, consists of soldiers from Mahal. There are even rumors that some of them didn't have citizenship within the Principality)"

The Cima Fleet article also has a line about how some of the men were forcefully plucked to be a part of her unit.

Von Braun has a diameter of 6 km and 5 levels.
If you calculate the square km of the city, each level is 18,84 square kilometres.
If you add the five level we have 94,2 square km.
With a density like London of 5000 ab. x km2, we have a population of about 471.000 inhabitants.
With a desity like the center of New York, abaut 10000, we have a max population of 942.000.
50 million people is wrong, I suppose.
Regards

Well, your math is a little bit fuzzy for that stuff. You're assuming that everything is uniform and aren't taking into account the depth of the levels or possible individual building/apartment capacity. Here's what Gundam Officials says regarding the size of the crater and whatnot:

"The expansion of the city has made not only an increase in the size of the site but also a hierarchical segmentation (or layering). The city was originally built at the bottom of the crater, and as it expanded, new levels were built upward (The city in the crater is about 6km in diameter, but it has factories and various facilities in the vicinity).

At the point of 0083, the city was roughly divided into five layers, with the lower levels having their interior space illuminated by lighting arranged on the ceilings. The population is roughly 50 million. The crime rate is low due to economic wealth, and security is considerably good. The earliest dock is located at the bottom; however, it is not currently used and only serves as a reminder of yesteryear. The bottom layer is now a junk city.

A random population sampling within a 6km radius in NYC has over 1.5 million people. So, it's not really a stretch for the city here on the moon to have 50 million. The text talks about the landscape and mentions "high rise buildings that aren't found on colonies" which indicates to me (at least) that massive story structures are present. Plus, if you look at the size of Nina's place, they're not exactly spacious.

[MythSearcher]

As if specs and whatnot haven't been all over from the beginning.

Explain the RX-78-02 and RX-78-2.

To my understanding, canon means the one and only officially accepted version of the history/story, RX-78-2 is, 02 is not.

But you didn't provide a source for where it isn't. The material still exists out there just like every other show and none of them explicitly state that it is outside the norm. So quit telling everyone that it isn't, that's all that matters.

https://www.gundam.info/news/publicatio ... 18_12.html
Look at the left of the 2nd row.
Both ORIGIN and TB are boxed and labeled "Alternative UC".

If you do not accept this, save your time, and don't waste mine.
I have my source and you can say all you can but you cannot stop me from using it and saying those 2 are non-canon.

Keeping them outside the colony makes more sense so that farms and what not aren't taking up space inside.

Please provide your own calculations that this can support enough population.
O'Neil's article on colonies counters your argument.
If you want that much farm land for that much population, you need to either have more blocks outside the colony, have some sort of layered structure inside so you don't see them, or have some other place to grow them(either entire colony for farming or imported from Earth.)

I don't know if this is a language barrier issue or not, because I have no idea whether English is your native language. Please note, I'm not holding that against you, I'm just trying to see why you chose a bizarre literal/awkward way of phrasing it. 外人 means foreigner/alien Yes, it can mean outsider (and that is the old meaning of the word) in certain extents, but for the case of the Cima Fleet article, it's fairly evident their composition has them being labeled as "foreign legion." This is the same term that is applied to Ken Bederstadt in Lost War Chronicles. There's no such thing as an "outsider team" anyways (not in a military setting at least). It's quite stilted. Furthermore, there is still no evidence that Mahal has been labeled as an outside colony or is discriminated against because they "just got there". I think you inferred that from the context of the article, but also got a few things wrong with it. In fact, the article only goes so far as to state:

"Mahal was a colony located on the outskirts of Side 3. Known as an industrial colony, it also said that they accepted many illegal immigrants as a labor force. In order to turn Mahal into the Solar Ray System, 1.5 million inhabitants were forcibly evacuated. Yet, the reason why the colony was selected was not only due to its location at the edge of the Principality's territory but also because of the composition of its inhabitants. (The Cima Fleet, one of the units that injected poison gas into each of the Sides during the surprise attack of the One Week War, consists of soldiers from Mahal. There are even rumors that some of them didn't have citizenship within the Principality)"

The Cima Fleet article also has a line about how some of the men were forcefully plucked to be a part of her unit.

Yes, both English and Japanese are not my native language, but I don't know if you pick up the difference of 外人 and 外国人.
I picked the word "Outsider" because it is what they are labeling them to be, people that are not considered one of their own.

In MS Igloo 603, you can also see that they are discriminated against.
Cima fleet was also used to do dirty work(applying the GG Gas), and as a scapegoat for it.

You have also translated that "but also because of the composition of its inhabitants".
That is enough to support my point that Mahal was chosen for its inhabitants and population size.

[Deacon Blues]

As if specs and whatnot haven't been all over from the beginning.

Explain the RX-78-02 and RX-78-2.

To my understanding, canon means the one and only officially accepted version of the history/story, RX-78-2 is, 02 is not.

A simple zero in the model number now doesn't change anything. It's still denoted as the 2nd unit. You're splitting hairs with that one.

https://www.gundam.info/news/publicatio ... 18_12.html
Look at the left of the 2nd row.
Both ORIGIN and TB are boxed and labeled "Alternative UC".

I figured that would be what you'd cite. I actually own that little book and it says "Another UC". The book doesn't give us an explanation for the subtitles, however, the manga is listed as "Another Story". Another does mean "more" anyways. But, this same book is also rife with interesting errors, so I take it with a huge grain of salt. I can't track mine down at the moment, but it erroneously listed Hathaway's Flash as taking place in U.C.0103 instead of 0105, so credibility is limited with this publication anyways.

Please provide your own calculations that this can support enough population.
O'Neil's article on colonies counters your argument.
If you want that much farm land for that much population, you need to either have more blocks outside the colony, have some sort of layered structure inside so you don't see them, or have some other place to grow them(either entire colony for farming or imported from Earth.)

O'Neil's own ideas are dated. We don't have an idea of the size of them, so we'd have to guess. Now granted, I'm not saying there ISN'T farmland inside the colonies, but it's not going to be as abundant as what you'd see in the US, that's for certain. Plus, we do have different layers in the colonies. This has been quite evident in multiple manga and whatnot over the years. Besides, I'm sure each cluster of colonies has an entire agriculture colony. Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure there was a reference to this somewhere... because some things made/grown in the colonies were actually brought to earth. I need to go digging.

Yes, both English and Japanese are not my native language, but I don't know if you pick up the difference of 外人 and 外国人.
I picked the word "Outsider" because it is what they are labeling them to be, people that are not considered one of their own.

They're called foreigners or people from another country. No one says "outsider". Off the top of my head, the only time outsider would work would be when referring to tribes and what not. What it all boils down to is the term from that article says "foreign legion". However, it wasn't referencing the ENTIRE colony, it was only talking about those who took part in Cima's ragtag group. Plus, if you look at the scene where they are evacuating the citizens, does it look like most of them are all "illegals" like the article says? No.

You have also translated that "but also because of the composition of its inhabitants".
That is enough to support my point that Mahal was chosen for its inhabitants and population size.

But again, you're not acknowledging where you said that it was full of "outsiders" and "discriminated" against. You conveniently skipped that. You're trying to pull more information out of something that doesn't exist. Please tell me where you determined that? It was mainly chosen for its proximity, but also because of just who happened to be there (like the article says). Chances are it was also the lowest colony population-wise, so it was the fastest/easiest to be dumped. But, we don't have figures/info for that.

[MythSearcher]

A simple zero in the model number now doesn't change anything. It's still denoted as the 2nd unit. You're splitting hairs with that one.

If you can only figure out the difference in the numbering, you have serious problems in your sense of canon.
No core block system, no atmospheric reentry capabilities, upgrade in Jaburo with a core pod.
None of this adheres to MSG TV and movie.

One of them must be canon, which one?

I figured that would be what you'd cite. I actually own that little book and it says "Another UC". The book doesn't give us an explanation for the subtitles, however, the manga is listed as "Another Story". Another does mean "more" anyways. But, this same book is also rife with interesting errors, so I take it with a huge grain of salt. I can't track mine down at the moment, but it erroneously listed Hathaway's Flash as taking place in U.C.0103 instead of 0105, so credibility is limited with this publication anyways.

You taking a grain of salt won't stop me from calling Origin and TB non-canon because at the same time they have a lot of discrepancies in plot, technological events, etc. These aren't minor at all, they cannot take place in the same reality. You cannot have them as canon while having MSG TV and movie all as canon. Or either you or me is not using the word canon correctly. I take it as the one and only true events, so you cannot have various different accounts of the same event happened and still call all of them canon. Equivalent kanji is 正史, the official history. While others are only "野史", I don't know the equivalent English term for it.
Like I said, you can keep what you think and I can keep mine, let's just leave it at that and stop wasting our times.

Error doesn't make it a failure of being a source, because this is exactly what we are discussing here.
The population given in sources aren't credible if you take it with imagery depictions in anime or manga.
Thus Jameedaark is questioning the numbers in official sources, I am trying to rationalize the numbers to be possible.

O'Neil's own ideas are dated. We don't have an idea of the size of them, so we'd have to guess. Now granted, I'm not saying there ISN'T farmland inside the colonies, but it's not going to be as abundant as what you'd see in the US, that's for certain. Plus, we do have different layers in the colonies. This has been quite evident in multiple manga and whatnot over the years. Besides, I'm sure each cluster of colonies has an entire agriculture colony. Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure there was a reference to this somewhere... because some things made/grown in the colonies were actually brought to earth. I need to go digging.

I have linked his article about size and population and calculations, twice in this thread.
No, we do NOT have to guess.

https://space.nss.org/the-colonization- ... oday-1974/
Please see table 1, Model 4.
A double unit can house 0.2 – 20 x 10^6 population, thus 2 to 20 million in double units, and 1 to 10 million for each cylinder. with sizes.

"the corresponding ecological limit for a full-size community would be 20 million people. At this limit, all the colonists would have a high standard of living, but in apartment-house living conditions, looking out over farmland."

I also recall them having entire colonies being farmland in UC, but I failed to find sources for that.
Texas colony comes to mind, but don't

Yes, both English and Japanese are not my native language, but I don't know if you pick up the difference of 外人 and 外国人.
I picked the word "Outsider" because it is what they are labeling them to be, people that are not considered one of their own.

They're called foreigners or people from another country. No one says "outsider". Off the top of my head, the only time outsider would work would be when referring to tribes and what not. What it all boils down to is the term from that article says "foreign legion". However, it wasn't referencing the ENTIRE colony, it was only talking about those who took part in Cima's ragtag group. Plus, if you look at the scene where they are evacuating the citizens, does it look like most of them are all "illegals" like the article says? No.

You have also translated that "but also because of the composition of its inhabitants".
That is enough to support my point that Mahal was chosen for its inhabitants and population size.

But again, you're not acknowledging where you said that it was full of "outsiders" and "discriminated" against. You conveniently skipped that. You're trying to pull more information out of something that doesn't exist. Please tell me where you determined that? It was mainly chosen for its proximity, but also because of just who happened to be there (like the article says). Chances are it was also the lowest colony population-wise, so it was the fastest/easiest to be dumped. But, we don't have figures/info for that.

"Full of" means to contain many of it.
https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/ ... -something
I didn't think you, as a native speaker, will take it literally as "All".

Discrimination against outsiders are shown in at least a few plots, and the text did imply the composition of Mahal is one of the reasons and have brackets pointing to Cima fleet.

If you are really that literal, and cannot accept that, lets do the same thing, some wasting your time and accept we have differences and/or it is just that our definitions in English and Japanese are simply different. Unless you can teach/enlighten me with native English, or just leave it at that.

[Chris]

You taking a grain of salt won't stop me from calling Origin and TB non-canon because at the same time they have a lot of discrepancies in plot, technological events, etc. These aren't minor at all, they cannot take place in the same reality. You cannot have them as canon while having MSG TV and movie all as canon. Or either you or me is not using the word canon correctly. I take it as the one and only true events, so you cannot have various different accounts of the same event happened and still call all of them canon.

This is complete exaggeration. Long-running franchises like Star Trek, Star Wars, etc frequently contradict themselves and will describe the same events differently. Gundam is no different, and these discrepancies have already happened with previous OYW OVA series. There is nothing in Origin or Thunderbolt that's any more contradictory than 0080, 0083, 08th MS Team or MS IGLOO. MS development histories are only covered in secondary materials anyway, so Origin changing that means nothing as far as "canon" goes.

[MythSearcher]

This is complete exaggeration. Long-running franchises like Star Trek, Star Wars, etc frequently contradict themselves and will describe the same events differently. Gundam is no different, and these discrepancies have already happened with previous OYW OVA series. There is nothing in Origin or Thunderbolt that's any more contradictory than 0080, 0083, 08th MS Team or MS IGLOO. MS development histories are only covered in secondary materials anyway, so Origin changing that means nothing as far as "canon" goes.

I always say that Gato and Delaz's OYW scene in 0083' prologue isn't canon. Same thing here.
Yes, they frequently contradict themselves, that is why they publish guide books to tell you what is the official history and what is only a different account of it.

Actually, I find it very fun that whether it is canon or not doesn't really matter in this particular discussion, and me using the term isn't because I think it is any less than what I call canon. And since we are discussing technological development(the space colony), so a view with a different technological development(MS development) is probably not a good example to use. While I have replied about canonity, I have also provided that even if you view Origin as canon, the farm land being both in and out of the colony is originally in O'Neil's planning, so I am still looking out for both side of the views. Jumping out to defend your own view of canon is fine, but really doesn't add to the discussion.

[Chris]

I always say that Gato and Delaz's OYW scene in 0083' prologue isn't canon. Same thing here.Yes, they frequently contradict themselves, that is why they publish guide books to tell you what is the official history and what is only a different account of it.

[snip]

Jumping out to defend your own view of canon is fine, but really doesn't add to the discussion.

The problem is that this EXACTLY what you are doing. Nobody is going to agree with you about your 0083 statement, so that's just your personal head canon. You go and say stuff like "Origin isn't canon" as though that's some definitive, factual statement on the matter, when it's really just your opinion. Don't conflate the two. You also make the mistake that many fans do of assuming that every entry in a long-running multimedia franchise is the "official history," when in reality there is no such thing. Actual history is constantly being debated and reinterpreted, with conflicting accounts of why/how/if things happened. That same level of contradiction taking place in Gundam is to be expected, so you're never going to have the "official history" that you desire.

[MythSearcher]

The problem is that this EXACTLY what you are doing. Nobody is going to agree with you about your 0083 statement, so that's just your personal head canon. You go and say stuff like "Origin isn't canon" as though that's some definitive, factual statement on the matter, when it's really just your opinion. Don't conflate the two. You also make the mistake that many fans do of assuming that every entry in a long-running multimedia franchise is the "official history," when in reality there is no such thing. History is constantly being debated and reinterpreted, with conflicting accounts of why/how/if things happened. That same level of contradiction taking place in Gundam is to be expected, so you're never going to have the "official history" that you desire.

The problem is that you try to argue about it. I know you don't agree with me, and I don't agree with you, that can be the end of the argument. My view is that there is a definitive view in the official account, since the Gundam franchise do have publications labelling some events as 正史 and some as 野史 or 異説, they do want to have official accounts of the history, and thus I try to honour at least their efforts of trying to do so. There will be multiple problems in what they try to put together, and we are free to claim that there are bugs in it.
And if you really support that history can be debated, then debate the actual historic account, not trying to force me into giving up on my views of having a canon, official account on things. My view is exactly one of the possible views that one can take in a debate that your view is covering.

You are free to either ignore that statement or defend your views, if you choose the latter, then you should at least expect that I may say something in return because that is when two different views clash. And as long as the official publications uses the term 正史, I will maintain my view that there is a one and only accepted official account on it, it doesn't mean that the other accounts didn't happen, which is just the same as real life history, it is just that I consider the official account to be the grounds of discussion, so we are not comparing apples and oranges, which will be like when I am talking about RX-78-2's specs and capability, you try to argue with the specs of RX-78-02, which will create a lot of problems in the official accounts given in MSG.(this is just an metaphor) You can simply view my statement of "this is not canon" as "it is different from most of the other accounts so my explanation may not work in that account" or "This is what the government told us to believe, so I will use that as my base." This may be a cultural difference, I don't know, but you once told me to agree to disagree, so I guess you may want to consider that path now.

Even when I am trying to defend my own views, I still try to respect your views and give explanations that can also explain things in those other contradicting accounts, while at least in this thread, you try to focus on the discussion about whether there is a canon which I have repeatedly stated it will be a waste of our times, because that is not the focus nor the purpose of that statement.
In fact, I do not mind talking about the canon is full of bugs and contradiction, or any other non-canon depiction is a better one. I constantly do that.

The fun thing is that your view of accepting many interpretations should be more flexible than mine, but I don't find that to be the case. As a metaphor, I am a monotheist(or maybe monolatrist, I do acknowledge other stories exists, just that they are different beings), and you are a polytheist, and you should not have any problem for me to claim that a single god exists, while I should be the one questioning your core values. The current situation is flipped, you are questioning and rejecting my core believe, which from this metaphor, you should know that it will be much harder.

BTW, the 0083 account is straight from Gundam officials and thus there are many who agree with me in either the Japanese's and Chinese forums,(which includes at least two with active members of 30-60k) so you saying nobody will agree with me only works probably here within this particular forum.

[Deacon Blues]

Gundam franchise do have publications labelling some events as 正史 and some as 野史 or 異説, they do want to have official accounts of the history, and thus I try to honour at least their efforts of trying to do so.

You'll have to point out which publications, exactly (I'm curious), utilize that terminology. Honestly, I've never seen 野史 used in publications before, and a cursory Google search doesn't yield much on that term (less than 10,000 hits), which is really weird. As for 異説, this is used in Gundam Officials a lot. The entire encyclopedia puts together conflicting information as well, so I don't get why you're holding the book to be the HOLY BIBLE of Gundam when information has changed since then. Heck, even the author who penned the Encyclopedia and put out those other smaller versions noted information that has changed over time. If you want to be "technical" this is how they classified material as of 20 years ago:

So while going through my collection of crap, I noticed that there was an interesting way of presenting comics, novels and new shows mentioned back in the G20 mags. Gundam was a hot mess, but this way of categorizing comes off as a dumpster fire of sorts?

Our first category: "Authentic Sidestories" - Epoch works that gave Gundam advance worldviews. (Here's the kicker) They list sample titles such as The Story of Dr. Minovsky, MS Senki, Gundam Sentinel, and 08th MS Team (OVA).

The second category: "Spinouts" - ”My Kind of Gundam" born from their author's playfulness. They list sample titles such as Tyrant Sword, My Gundam (Atashi no Gundam), and Hidden Shadow of G.

The third category: "Official Spinouts" - Ambitious works that expand the possibilities of Gundam. They list sample titles such as Mobile Fighter G Gundam, New Mobile Report Gundam W, After War Gundam X (the shows, that's all).

The fourth category: "Official Spinout Sidestory Group" - "Gundam grandkids" created by a new generation of works after CCA. They list sample titles such as Mobile Suit Gundam F90, Mobile Suit Gundam Silhouette Formula 91, Crossbone Gundam, Gundam W G-Unit.

The fifth category is SD (needs no explanation). The sixth category is "Tomino's Another Story". They list sample titles such as Mobile Suit Gundam (novel), Gaia Gear, Hathaway's Flash and Secret Encounter - Amuro & Lalah.

Take that as you will.

And if you really support that history can be debated, then debate the actual historic account, not trying to force me into giving up on my views of having a canon, official account on things. My view is exactly one of the possible views that one can take in a debate that your view is covering.

Here's the thing though, you're stating a bunch of things as though they're fact. You told the thread starter that Origin is not canon, which isn't true. You really need to learn to how to say that it's not canon, in your opinion.

BTW, the 0083 account is straight from Gundam officials and thus there are many who agree with me in either the Japanese's and Chinese forums,(which includes at least two with active members of 30-60k) so you saying nobody will agree with me only works probably here within this particular forum.

Citation needed where they agree. Gotta back up your claims somehow if you are going to pull that card. I don't recall reading anything that indicates the prologue to 0083 is invalidated (at least not in GO).