The Macross Valkyrie Thread

[Seto Kaiba]

Say Kaiba, have you seen the silhouette of the new VF for the Delta movie? Do you have any speculation on it?

*points up to my previous post*

Yes, yes I have.

Also, a random question, but how many time did the Windermerian used the swords on their VF?

Only once that I can recall in the Macross Delta TV series... right before the ending when Keith confronts Roid in the Star Shrine on Ragna, and Roid summons a Sv-262Hs under mind control to fight Keith. There's a brief sword fight that ends in a mutual kill, with Keith bailing out and then running Roid through with his sword.

They also use them once or twice in the movie, but IIRC it was Mirage who actually used it most in her stolen Sv-262Ba.

[Seto Kaiba]

https://imgur.com/a/QtbH3ex

So we've got a new VF design from Shoji Kawamori for the forthcoming Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! movie due out next year.

First blush reaction, this looks like a minimally-tweaked version of one of the early VF-27 drafts I remember seeing in Shoji Kawamori: the View Point of Visionary Creator years ago. The lack of an obvious canopy, the large sensor blisters, its delta wing with through-wing engine nacelles, small inward-canted stabilizers, etc. all positively scream General Galaxy's handiwork. This looks like nothing quite so much as a direct descendant of the VF-14. Five'll get you twenty this is either a new Dian Cecht SV Works unit or another General Galaxy 5th Generation main VF (perhaps an economized VF-27 derivative).

Just punting this onto the next page, since the new VF Kawamori unveiled is likely to be a hot topic.

[False Prophet]

Economized VF-27? Isn't that is just stripping away the most expensive Quartz-made components, and maybe changing the user interface to accommodate non-cyborg pilots?

Also, do you think that because the VF-14 is good with long-range cruising and easy to maintain, it is fitting for a frontier place like Brisingr?

[Seto Kaiba]

Economized VF-27? Isn't that is just stripping away the most expensive Quartz-made components, and maybe changing the user interface to accommodate non-cyborg pilots?

The VF-27 doesn't have any fold quartz-based hardware besides the Inertia Store Converter protecting the cockpit from high g-forces. It never had a fold wave system like the YF-29 or VF-31 Custom, a fold dimensional resonance system like the YF-30, or a fold reheat like the Sv-262.

An economized VF-27 might be something closer to the YF-27-3 or YF-25-5... a delta-wing twin-engine design with the armored canopy, holographic cockpit, and the heavy beam gunpod for a more balanced, less dogfighter-y performance profile appropriate to a multirole fighter.

Also, do you think that because the VF-14 is good with long-range cruising and easy to maintain, it is fitting for a frontier place like Brisingr?

Absolutely. General Galaxy's VF-14 Vampire would have been a very attractive option for the Brisingr Alliance when they were choosing their 3rd Generation main variable fighter. Its large airframe's high fuel capacity and high thrust would've made it an attractive option as a space fighter that doesn't need FAST Packs. Its large airframe also makes it extremely easy to upgrade, which would've helped them keep them in service for as long as possible. The VF-14 was very popular despite losing out to the VF-11 for the main NUNS's 3rd Gen main fighter for precisely those reasons, and it was also an extremely popular VF with the Zentradi due to its high frame durability and excellent defensive performance.

[False Prophet]

Say, of all the features found on the YF-27, YF-29 and YF-30, which do you think have the most chance to be implemented widespread in the future? Would the Earth central authority take a look at these machines and try to learn something to upgrade the VF-24?

Also, was it a coincidence or not for the YF-30/VF-31A to have the same broken delta wings as the VF-24? How far would a hypothetical VF-31 variant need to go to be able to catch up with the VF-24?

[Seto Kaiba]

Say, of all the features found on the YF-27, YF-29 and YF-30, which do you think have the most chance to be implemented widespread in the future? Would the Earth central authority take a look at these machines and try to learn something to upgrade the VF-24?

Hard to say, since there aren't actually THAT many standout features on any of those designs... they differ from typical 5th Generation VFs in their commitment to overwhelming performance by simple brute force. Macross Galaxy's VF-27 Lucifer was very similar to the VF-25 in terms of most of its hardware, its greater performance being a product of brute force application of power achieved with the addition of a second set of main engines. Macross Frontier's YF-29 used similar means, with four extremely expensive engines and a fold wave system to augment their performance. There is even less difference in the YF-30, which literally just borrowed the YF-29's engines and created an improved version of the fold wave system.

The only thing they've got that really screams "potentially advantageous" is the VF-27's perfected BDI. The situational awareness and control-response improvements that come from being able to make the fighter a literal extension of a pilot's body cannot be overstated, and there is a modest advantage in survivability to be had in not having to have the cockpit protected on all sides by energy conversion armor instead of having a weaker canopy exposed. The full-body cyborg soldiers Macross Galaxy used are illegal under galaxy law, but network implants themselves aren't... and there are other less extreme body modifications that can also be used to improve a pilot's performance like Vanquish racer Nicolas Berthier's bio-fiber-optic nervous system.

Also, was it a coincidence or not for the YF-30/VF-31A to have the same broken delta wings as the VF-24?

Nah, the VF-31A was developed from the YF-30, which was in turn developed from the YF-24 Evolution spec which was disseminated to the emigrant governments. The YF-30's developer Aisha Blanchett reworked the transformation of the YF-24 to suit her addition of the ordnance container system, but keeping the base design mostly the same would have made most of the engineering legwork fairly simple.

Like almost every 5th Gen VF we've seen thus far - the exception being the Draken III - they're all modestly reworked versions of the base YF-24 Evolution design. The YF-30 is no different in that regard.

How far would a hypothetical VF-31 variant need to go to be able to catch up with the VF-24?

Much farther than the Brisingr Alliance can afford to take it... the VF-31A's performance is about on par with the initial trial production VF-25A from nearly a decade earlier, which is not terribly surprising given how many parts they share in common. The YF-29, the performance of which was only narrowly matched by the VF-27 Super Lucifer, was an attempt to exceed the performance of the full spec YF-24, and that was so expensive that the Macross Frontier fleet could only afford to build one... and they're one of the wealthier emigrant governments.

[False Prophet]

Fiber-optic nervous system, how does that work? If it is the thing that I have in mind, then how far have humanity's miniaturization technology reached?

And if the difference between the full-spec YF-24 and what the colonies received is that much, wouldn't the colonies file a complain to the central government? After all, they are more likely to encounter hostiles (the recent war really fucked Earth that bad?)

Also, do you think that Earth and other colony governments would attempt to prosecute Epsilon Foundation for the involvement with Windermere, and then use that as an excuse to examine the Draken III? I could see the future whereas they would make a VF-171 successor from the Draken III.

Also, what do we know about the Sv-154 Svärd?

[Seto Kaiba]

Fiber-optic nervous system, how does that work? If it is the thing that I have in mind, then how far have humanity's miniaturization technology reached?

Given that the only other place that technology is mentioned is the DYRL? Meltrandi, it's probably not human-developed technology.

As to how it works, we can only guess because it's not explained in any real depth. Just that the electrochemical motor nerves are replaced by bio-fiber optics that use light impulses instead.

And if the difference between the full-spec YF-24 and what the colonies received is that much, wouldn't the colonies file a complain to the central government? After all, they are more likely to encounter hostiles (the recent war really ZOINKS Earth that bad?)

Well, they'd have nobody but their own elected officials to blame... since the New UN Government assembly are the ones who voted to restrict exports of certain technologies to the emigrant fleets and to impose various other restrictions on emigrant government forces.

Basically, the Sharon Apple incident really rattled the New UN Government. The idea that there were fighters in active development that could blow through Earth's own defenses like it was nothing at all was a frightening and worrying prospect, especially the idea that emigrant forces might employ their amazing capabilities against each other or the New UN Government itself in the various outbreaks of minor hostilities, or that they might end up in the hands of violent anti-government groups. So arms exports were restricted by newly enacted laws, while they continued to equip the theoretically impartial supranational New UN Forces that answered directly to the NUNG itself with the best toys so that they could step in and reliably outgun any one uppity national government if any kind of inter-governmental dispute broke out.

This policy that Earth and the supranational New UN Forces keep the "biggest stick" to sort out any disputes that get out of hand and tackle the biggest threats is still the policy on the books twenty-plus years later, and nobody seems to mind all that much since the supranational military doesn't intervene in political disputes and is heavily restricted in how it can act by the government and the Barnrose Authority's oversight commission. It keeps the emigrant forces on a more or less level playing field, working from their own merits rather than their ability to splurge on the most expensive weapons from Earth, and ensures that there's always a bigger fish who can step in and restore order if a conflict gets out of control.

Also, do you think that Earth and other colony governments would attempt to prosecute Epsilon Foundation for the involvement with Windermere, and then use that as an excuse to examine the Draken III? I could see the future whereas they would make a VF-171 successor from the Draken III.

Oh, I suspect the Epsilon Foundation will find itself under all kinds of scrutiny from the individual governments of the Brisingr Alliance, the Brisingr Alliance itself, and the New UN Government, and that Berger Stone will offer his complete cooperation in an attempt to save his own skin.

That said, the Draken III's specs were probably already disclosed in accordance with galaxy law given that, as soon as the Aerial Knights stopped using that powerful ECM to prevent them from being identified, Xaos identified their aircraft as the Sv-262 Draken III with minimal effort. Windermere IV was probably not the only customer for that fighter.

There are already plenty of VF-171 successors kicking around... Earth's VF-24, Frontier's VF-25, Galaxy's VF-27, and Brisingr's VF-31 to name the ones that've shown up so far. It's kind of implied in a number of different sources that VF-24 monkey models and the VF-25 kind of cornered the market on 5th Generation main fighters, though Brisingr is hoping that they can make some money exporting the VF-31 to stimulate their stagnant economy further. The Sv-262 Draken III is a 5th Generation VF, so it could potentially have become a VF-171-replacement if anyone had adopted it to replace their existing fleet of VF-171s.

Also, what do we know about the Sv-154 Svärd?

Almost nothing... just that it exists, it's modeled on the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter via Kawamori's Air Cavalry Chronicles design LV-7 Valorous Rapier (a Fanelian VF from that proto-Escaflowne concept), and that it's apparently a 4th Generation VF developed by the SV Works.

It was the main fighter of Windermere IV's Aerial Knights until some point between 2060 and 2067, when it was replaced by the Sv-262 Draken III.

[hitokirigarou]

Is there a reason why the humans implemented a transformation mechanism in the SDF-1?

[Seto Kaiba]

Is there a reason why the humans implemented a transformation mechanism in the SDF-1?

That wasn't something humanity added so much as it was the refurbished alien warship's new human crew using one of the original alien warship's features in a way its designers never intended.

The Supervision Army gunboat that crashed on Earth had a modular design that could be rearranged. We're never told precisely why, presumably it was to mitigate battle damage and facilitate replacement of damaged sections, but if any other reason existed it's been lost to time in 500,000 years of unrestricted clone warfare. When the boobytrap that the ship's original crew hid in its software to prevent it from being used against them if it fell into enemy hands was finally tripped, it automatically fired the main gun, scrambled the gravity control system, and sabotaged the fold system so it would disappear into higher-dimensional space the first time it was activated. The disappearance of the fold system would've effectively rendered the ship useless by depriving it of its ability to travel interplanetary distances quickly, its long-range FTL radar, long-range FTL communications, and cut the connections between the ship's reactors and main gun system when shared sections of energy conduit vanished.

The Macross's unnamed chief engineer came up with a workaround for that last problem, leveraging the modular nature of the alien warship's design to work around the breaks in the ship's energy grid by rearranging the modules so there would be an uninterrupted connection between the ship's reactors and the main gun. This compromised other systems, so the ship couldn't stay in that different configuration longer than necessary, so they switched between its default configuration and the improvised fix for the gun system on an as-needed basis... the transformation.

[hitokirigarou]

So, the gunboat could actually transform into an attack mode similar to that of the SDF-1's? What about the DYRL version of the gunboat?

Do the TV and DYRL versions of the SDF-1 exist in the same continuity?

[Seto Kaiba]

So, the gunboat could actually transform into an attack mode similar to that of the SDF-1's? What about the DYRL version of the gunboat?

In theory, yes. Though, given the Zentradi forces' considerable surprise and bewilderment over the Macross's transformation it seems likely that it never occurred to its original owners to use the ship's modularity like that.

Do the TV and DYRL versions of the SDF-1 exist in the same continuity?

The answer would depend on the continuity you're looking at.

For the main/ongoing animated Macross continuity, the answer would be "Yes". The TV series version is what the Macross looked like during the First Space War and the DYRL version is what the ship looked like after its repairs were completed in the wake of Quamzin's suicide attack. The DYRL version became the basis for the SDFN type mass production Macross-class ships that were used as escort flagships for several early emigrant fleets before being retired to planetary defense service (e.g. SDFN-01 General Takashi Hayase, SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global, and SDFN-08 General Vrlitwhai Kridanik).

For the parallel world continuity of Macross II: Lovers Again, the answer is kind of a "maybe". There is some evidence that the Macross in that continuity had the Daedalus and Prometheus for arms but still retained its DYRL appearance otherwise as it does in Sukehiro Tomita's novelization of the DYRL movie and in the Haruhiko Mikimoto manga Macross the First.

[False Prophet]

What is the "Heavy Quantum Beam Gun" on the YF-29 exactly? How is it difference from normal beam guns?

Also, is it said anywhere how many percentage of VF-25's components does the Durandal and Perceval have respectively? Isn't the Durandal kind of a patchwork machine?

[Seto Kaiba]

What is the "Heavy Quantum Beam Gun" on the YF-29 exactly? How is it difference from normal beam guns?

The "quantum" in "heavy quantum" in Macross doesn't refer to zero point energy. Rather, they're using the less commonly used (today) more conventional meaning of "quantum" to mean "an amount of something", as in the title Quantum of Solace.

Heavy quantum beam weaponry is a subset of dimensional weaponry, which fire a beam or bolt composed of exotic matter that exists simultaneously in realspace and in higher dimensional (fold) space.

"Heavy quantum", in this case, refers to a type of exotic matter from fold space that partially protrudes into three-dimensional spacetime and can be created using energized fold carbon or fold quartz as a catalyst. Its enormously high mass is mostly trapped in fold space unless excited by certain frequencies of fold resonance waves, which are tuned to cause part (or all) of its mass to briefly drop into realspace. This aspect of heavy quantum is essential to gravity manipulation, which is used to create artificial gravity and antigravity reactionless flight in spaceships, for fuel compression and plasma containment in fold reactors, for creating gates into foldspace for interstellar travel using space folds, as implosion triggers in thermonuclear reaction warheads, as the warhead itself in dimensional warheads (dimension eaters), and in highly destructive beam weaponry.

Most dimensional beam weapons are heavy quantum reaction beam weapons - also known as the super dimension energy cannon - which you could say are Macross's riff on the mega particle beam cannon. They produce a quantity of heavy quantum and use a resonance fold wave to excite it until its mass drops all the way into three-dimensional space time and it auto-ignites in a thermonuclear fusion reaction due to its own colossal mass. The fusion detonation is focused by any of several means to collimate it into a high velocity, high mass fusion plasma beam that carries enormous destructive power.

Lately, a less powerful but less energy-intensive variant of this technology has been introduced. Heavy quantum beam weapons generate heavy quantum using fold quartz or fold carbon, but instead of trying to trigger a fusion reaction in the heavy quantum they just fire the heavy quantum itself as a beam or bolt while exposing it to the resonance fold waves to cause part of its mass to drop into realspace. The heavy quantum fired isn't a superhot plasma beam, it's a chunk of ultra-high mass matter moving at high speeds like a depleted uranium bullet.

You could think of it the heavy quantum reaction beam cannon like using a gas canister to feed a plasma torch to cut through things, while the heavy quantum beam cannon is like just chucking the gas canister at someone to do blunt force injuries.

There is a third class called a MDE (Micro Dimension Eater) beam weapon. This type works by using fold quartz to produce superheavy quantum that has mass in excess of regular heavy quantum produced by fold carbon, and fire that excited superheavy quantum as what amounts to a particle beam made up of micro black holes that suck any matter they come into contact with into fold space.


"Regular" beam weapons in Macross depends on what scale of beam weapon you're talking about. For ships, heavy quantum reaction beam weaponry is the norm for everything from your anti-aircraft gun turrets on up the scale to anti-warship gun turrets and (where present) the massive main gun systems used for bombarding enemy planets and wiping out small fleets in a single shot. There are a bunch of different minor variations of it, which use different methods to focus or direct the heavy quantum fusion plasma beam to its target. Some guns use an actual gun barrel, some warp space-time into a gun barrel as needed, and some can even twist space time hard enough to bend the beam after it leaves the barrel to avoid needing a repositionable turret.

For mecha, "regular" beam weapons usually means charged particle beam weaponry of one type or another. The Zentradi favor electron particle beam weapons, for instance. Usually they don't get more specific than "charged particle beam" though. Dimensional beam weapons were miniaturized sufficiently to mount on VFs starting with the 4th Generation (built-in heavy quantum reaction beam guns were an option on the YF-19 and YF-21), but the high energy requirements and resulting low rate of fire from those weapons means most beam weaponry used on VFs is charged particle beams. (Laser weapons, typically mounted on the head of a VF, are not counted as beam guns.)

Also, is it said anywhere how many percentage of VF-25's components does the Durandal and Perceval have respectively? Isn't the Durandal kind of a patchwork machine?

Not that I've seen, all we know is that the Macross Frontier fleet's YF-29 Durandal shared a lot of components with the YF/VF-25 that was developed in parallel with it and that one and only prototype produced contained an even greater amount of VF-25 parts to allow it to be rushed to completion.

[False Prophet]

Is it just me or does the YF-27-5 look less similar to the VF-22 than the Lucifer?

Also, does having variable wings make any difference to the VF-25 when compared to the VF-24? And I suddenly have the feeling that the VF-31A has more part commonality to the monkey-model VF-24 than the VF-25.

[Seto Kaiba]

Is it just me or does the YF-27-5 look less similar to the VF-22 than the Lucifer?

It's just you, IMO... the YF-27-5 looks to me to be more similar to the VF-22 than the production VF-27.

Also, does having variable wings make any difference to the VF-25 when compared to the VF-24?

Well, yes... the variable-sweep wing offers greater flexibility in performance between high-speed high-altitude roles and low-speed low-altitude roles, particularly in terms of subsonic cruise fuel efficiency and better gust response for low-altitude flight. They also generally offer better carrying capacity than a fixed wing.

The tradeoff is that the variable-sweep wing is more mechanically complex and heavier as a result, and some of the downsides of not having them can be compensated for with advanced flight stability controls.

And I suddenly have the feeling that the VF-31A has more part commonality to the monkey-model VF-24 than the VF-25.

Nah... most of the VF-31A Kairos's hardware is literally the same models developed for the VF-25,and the VF-31 was itself a heavily economized version of the YF-30 Chronos, which was in turn a derivative of the YF-29 program which was developed in parallel with and shared a lot of hardware with the VF-25. It's like two or three times removed from the VF-24.

[False Prophet]

Well, yes... the variable-sweep wing offers greater flexibility in performance between high-speed high-altitude roles and low-speed low-altitude roles, particularly in terms of subsonic cruise fuel efficiency and better gust response for low-altitude flight. They also generally offer better carrying capacity than a fixed wing.

The tradeoff is that the variable-sweep wing is more mechanically complex and heavier as a result, and some of the downsides of not having them can be compensated for with advanced flight stability controls.

I remember years ago wandering on a military aviation forum, where people trash-talked the F-18 and praised the F-14 because it was the "perfect fleet fighter". Is it anyway related to the advantages of variable-swept wing?

Also, maybe I have asked this question somewhere else, but is the EX-Gear a "passive" stress reliever or and "active" one, which I meant that could the suit calculate possible forces applied to the pilot and do micro-adjustment to its actuators in participation? Or just that the suit activates only when the applied force reach a dangerous threshold?

[Seto Kaiba]

I remember years ago wandering on a military aviation forum, where people trash-talked the F-18 and praised the F-14 because it was the "perfect fleet fighter". Is it anyway related to the advantages of variable-swept wing?

Hell if I know... there's a lot of fanwank surrounding the F-14, especially from fanboys who are bitter that the Navy passed on two separate plans to upgrade the Tomcat with technology backported from the ATF program.

Also, maybe I have asked this question somewhere else, but is the EX-Gear a "passive" stress reliever or and "active" one, which I meant that could the suit calculate possible forces applied to the pilot and do micro-adjustment to its actuators in participation? Or just that the suit activates only when the applied force reach a dangerous threshold?

EX-Gear operates in several different ways, but in terms of reducing stress on the pilot it just functions as a movable pilot's seat that reorients itself in the cockpit space to minimize the potential for blood to pool in the pilot's extremities.

[hitokirigarou]

Generally how many rounds does a VF projectile-based gunpod carry?

[Seto Kaiba]

Generally how many rounds does a VF projectile-based gunpod carry?

It varies quite a bit, as gunpods have gotten bigger and smaller depending on the size of the VFs carrying them and the firepower needs of overcoming increasingly tough energy conversion armor. Gunpods with internal magazines tend to carry more rounds per magazine, though the ones with detachable magazines tend to carry more rounds overall.

It's usually somewhere in the vicinity of 180-250 rounds per magazine, though there are some significant outliers.

The GPU-9 used by the VF-0 was equipped with more or less modern 35mm ammunition and held 550 rounds inside an internal helical magazine. The GU-11A that the VF-1 Valkyrie was issued with held 200 55mm rounds that were a great deal more powerful. Master File claims the later GU-11D with its removable magazine held 120 rounds in each of the detachable box magazines. The VF-19's GU-15A allegedly held 150 rounds per magazine. The current smallest is the 13 round magazine used by the VF-25G's SSL-9B Dragunov 55mm railgun, as is the second smallest (its optional 35 round drum magazine). The largest explicitly stated is 850 35mm rounds in each of the 35mm rotary cannons on the VF-31 Armored Pack.