The Macross Valkyrie Thread

[hitokirigarou]

Someone told me that the Robotech VF-1 has near-unlimited operating time. Do the VFs from the various Macross media have the same ability/feature?

*snip*

Thanks for the comprehensive reply pertaining to the advantages of the VF-31 over the VF-25.

[Seto Kaiba]

Someone told me that the Robotech VF-1 has near-unlimited operating time.

Ah... er... how do I put this gently?

Whomever told you that wasn't exercising good sourcing practices. The only Robotech source that's ever given any indication as to how long a mecha's fuel supply lasts is the Palladium Books RPG. The original Robotech RPG - the one fans now refer to as "First Edition" - was so poorly researched and poorly written that even Harmony Gold itself has dismissed it as garbage that isn't remotely representative of the show's contents. That "First Edition" RPG mecha stats gave many of the mecha years of operating time between refuelings. The "Second Edition" RPG that was written after Palladium Books got the Robotech license back in the mid-2000s (AKA the Shadow Chronicles RPG) had the HG creative director exercising an editorial veto power over any and all content and forced the game to closely follow Robotech's canon. The VF-1's stated runtime in that "Second Edition" RPG, approved by HG's creative director for Robotech, was 48 hours of runtime between refuelings. The most fuel-efficient mecha in that game manage ~2 weeks between refuelings.

(When Palladium Books got the Macross II license in the early 90's, similar weirdness occurred with that game's stats. Kevin Siembieda wrote all the VFs up as having reactor endurance of a decade or more because his grasp of science is very poor and he isn't clear on the difference between fusion and fission.)

Do the VFs from the various Macross media have the same ability/feature?

Thus far, the only Macross VF with a thermonuclear reaction turbine engine that has a stated fuel system endurance is the VF-1 Valkyrie... though the 4th and 5th Generation VFs are noted to have new engine technologies which are much more efficient than the initial type thermonuclear reaction turbine engine.

The VF-1 Valkyrie's onboard fuel supply of 1,410 liters of hydrogen slush is noted to give the VF-1 a maximum operating time of 700 hours between refuelings in atmospheric service. The VF-1's lengthy runtime is credited to the Gravity and Inertia Control (GIC) system at the heart of the Compact Thermonuclear Reactor. Instead of compressing its fuel with electromagnetic fields or laser pulses, a thermonuclear reaction engine uses the artificial gravity produced by charging fold carbon to compress fuel past the fusion point. Essentially, the GIC maintains a tiny artificial star in the reactor that enables the reactor to squeeze much more energy out of the same quantity of fuel by ensuring that virtually all fuel that gets injected into the reactor participates in the fusion reaction and by enabling the reactor to continue fusing the same fuel multiple times, going past the relatively paltry output of fusing hydrogen into helium and into more the energy-rich reactions like the proton-proton chain and CNO cycle. Instead of burning hydrocarbon fuel to produce thrust, the heat from the fusion reaction that isn't being harnessed by the thermoelectric converters it used to flash-heat intake air for thrust generation. Thanks to there being only a loose, indirect relationship between fuel consumption rate and thrust production (instead of a direct one as on a conventional turbine with gas burners), the VF-1 can fly at supersonic speeds while daintily sipping tiny amounts of fuel.

This comes with a downside, though... heat that's used to produce thrust can't be harnessed by thermoelectric converters to produce electricity, which is why a VF's most energy-intensive systems like energy conversion armor (or pinpoint barriers on Gen 4+ VFs) aren't active in fighter mode. It's thrust OR generator output, you can't have both.

The other downside is that, in space, to avoid having to carry massive external propellant tanks the VF-1 and all VFs use the plasma from the Compact Thermonuclear Reactor as a propellant in space flight. The monofuel design prevents a VF from needing to lug around secondary fuel sources for space operation that wouldn't be necessary in atmospheric service, but it also means their operating time in space is exponentially shorter.

That 1,410 liters of hydrogen slush that was good for 700 hours of atmospheric flight? That'll get the VF-1 10 minutes of maximum thrust in space before the tanks are dry... 4,200x the fuel consumption rate of atmospheric flight. That's why the early model VFs like the VF-1 relied so heavily on FAST Packs for space operations. By bolting on conformal tanks carrying thousands of liters of extra fuel (often several times what the VF carried internally) and supplementing a VF's main engines with high-powered throttleable hybrid rocket engines, they could greatly extend the VF's operating times during space operations by reducing the burden on the main engines and extending the available fuel supply. With the extra 5,020 liters of fuel in the VF-1's FAST pack, the main engine endurance was raised to over 45 1/2 minutes at their maximum output and the high-powered rocket boosters greatly reduced the need to run the engines at higher output levels.

Later generations of VF compensated for this with larger airframe designs able to hold more internal fuel (e.g. the VF-14) and, starting with the development of the 4th Generation VFs, the new thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines that offered both greatly improved maximum output and greatly improved fuel efficiency. 4th Generation VFs like the VF-19, VF-22, and VF-171 could operate in space for extended periods of time without needing bolt-on tanks, and that engine technology was backported to select older models like the Gen 3.5 VF-11MAXL and VF-17D/S/T type. From that point onwards, FAST Packs became more about adding ridiculous amounts of weaponry and thrusters to offset the added mass of that weaponry rather than significantly extending operating ranges. This change of tack found its fullest expression a generation later with the 5th Generation VFs and their even more powerful and efficient Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines and FAST Packs including hundreds of missiles, beam cannons, massive armor reinforcement, and the like (e.g. the VF-25, VF-31, and their respective Super and Armored Packs).

[hitokirigarou]

The VF-1 Valkyrie's onboard fuel supply of 1,410 liters of hydrogen slush is noted to give the VF-1 a maximum operating time of 700 hours between refuelings in atmospheric service.

This is leagues better than current real-life fighters! The only downside I can see is the VF pilot's endurance. I'm assuming VFs have some sort of highly advanced autopilot that can be used when the pilot needs to rest during a flight.

[Seto Kaiba]

This is leagues better than current real-life fighters!

And, surprisingly enough, realistic according to NASA's own projections for fusion turbine engine efficiencies c.2003.

They estimate that a jet airliner could go around the world on a single pound of boron-11.

The only downside I can see is the VF pilot's endurance. I'm assuming VFs have some sort of highly advanced autopilot that can be used when the pilot needs to rest during a flight.

There is an autopilot, but almost every VF is capable of cruising at high supersonic or hypersonic speeds thanks to the thermonuclear reaction turbine's ability to produce incredibly high exhaust pressures via heat-exchange from a fusion reaction.

Even the humble VF-1 could make a transatlantic crossing from New York to London in under two hours going flat out, and many of its successors were substantially faster than that. The VF-4 could do it in under an hour at the higher end of its flight envelope. The VF-11 could do it in about 33 minutes. By the time you get to the 4th Generation VFs where performance really spikes, that transatlantic flight is less time than it takes to cook the typical TV dinner.

When you can get where you're going THAT fast, the concerns we have today about the pilot's biological needs border on being a nonissue. They could pound a quadruple espresso in New York and be in Moscow before the caffeine sh*ts set in.

The incredibly high operating time in atmosphere was more a wartime concession in the event that a VF were stuck out in the field and unable to return to a base for refueling and rearming in a timely manner. Having a solid month's worth of continuous operating time (well, 29 days and 4 hours) on a full tank means that field logistics are a lot less complicated.

[False Prophet]

Say, is there a fire extinguisher inside a VF's cockpit? And if the canopy is pierced, is there any sealant sprayer to quickly close the breech?

[Seto Kaiba]

Say, is there a fire extinguisher inside a VF's cockpit? And if the canopy is pierced, is there any sealant sprayer to quickly close the breech?

I don't recall seeing a fire extinguisher anywhere, though I'm sure there's probably some built-in routine to cope with a fire by purging the oxygen in the pressurized cockpit temporarily.

A breach in the cockpit would be more a mild inconvenience than a real threat, since the VF's pilot is already wearing a sealed high-performance mechanical counterpressure spacesuit with its own dedicated oxygen supply and a tap into the onboard life support systems of the VF. (Like a Normal Suit from Gundam, but much more advanced.)

[Seto Kaiba]

I'd posted this on the Mecha Discussion thread on MW, but I figure this is a good detail to share here.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah has a rather cute/amusing little detail about Sheryl Nome's future career and relationship buried in the description of the Macross Olympia SMS branch's VFs. The Queen's Knights unit that is essentially Sheryl's version of the Minmay Guard are a unit tasked with guarding Sheryl and escorting her ship while she's in Macross Olympia c.2064, and she specifically requested that her ship's escort detail be a pair of VF-25F units with the MODEX numbers 727 and 1123... Alto's birthday, and hers.

[Dark Duel]

That's a cute little tidbit. I like that.

[False Prophet]

I'd posted this on the Mecha Discussion thread on MW, but I figure this is a good detail to share here.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah has a rather cute/amusing little detail about Sheryl Nome's future career and relationship buried in the description of the Macross Olympia SMS branch's VFs. The Queen's Knights unit that is essentially Sheryl's version of the Minmay Guard are a unit tasked with guarding Sheryl and escorting her ship while she's in Macross Olympia c.2064, and she specifically requested that her ship's escort detail be a pair of VF-25F units with the MODEX numbers 727 and 1123... Alto's birthday, and hers.

What about Alto, then? Did he still have the VF-29?

And speaking of the VF-29, is there a big difference between the cost to build it and the cost to operate/maintain it? Let's just presume that Alto is skilled enough to avoid most attack that would had hit lesser pilots, then does the VF-29 consume anything exotic (fuel? ammunition?) and expensive?

[Seto Kaiba]

What about Alto, then? Did he still have the VF-29?

Master File is never 100% clear on which version of events it takes as the correct one. Alto isn't mentioned, apart from his Frontier SMS VF-25F paintjob.

And speaking of the VF-29, is there a big difference between the cost to build it and the cost to operate/maintain it? Let's just presume that Alto is skilled enough to avoid most attack that would had hit lesser pilots, then does the VF-29 consume anything exotic (fuel? ammunition?) and expensive?

Well, the high-performance engines are going to be expensive to maintain as any high-performance engine is. The fuel is the same hydrogen slush every VF uses so that's a non-issue. The big sticking point would be ammunition, since Alto's YF-29 used MDE rounds for a lot of things. It had MDE machine guns and a hundred micro-missiles with MDE warheads. MDE weapons can only be made with fold quartz, which is rare and difficult to obtain both due to the limited number of sources from which to obtain it (Vajra carcasses, Protoculture ruins) and the government restrictions on mining it and trading in it

[Seto Kaiba]

For the sake of convenience, the following rant will be color-coded! (Last updated 8/20/2019)
VFs that officially exist and have appeared in a Macross official setting work
VFs that officially exist and have NOT appeared in a Macross official setting work.
VFs that exist solely in non-official works like Variable Fighter Master File
VFs whose placement is speculative.



Generation 0 - "Prototype Generation"
This generation is purely speculative and exists mainly to segregate designs that do not fully comply with the design qualifications for the First Generation Variable Fighter (e.g. thermonuclear reaction turbine engines) and were built principally for evaluation purposes rather than mass produced for actual combat service.

• YVF-X-0
• VF-0 Phoenix (YVF-X-0B)
• VF-0-NF
• Sv-50
• Sv-51
• Sv-51Σ (Unmanned Sv-51)

Generation 0.5 - "Upgraded Prototype Generation"
This generation contains designs that exist only in Variable Fighter Master File. These VF designs are upgrades of the 0th Generation prototypes that were upgraded with technology from 1st Generation VFs or otherwise modernized to make them viable for long-duration operation.

• VF-0+ Phoenix Plus
• Sv-51Ω (Repurposed incomplete Sv-52 with conventional engines)

Generation 1 - "First Generation"
The defining traits of this generation are the adoption of Overtechnology, including thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, laser weaponry, energy converting armor, etc. in a production variable fighter.

• Sv-52
• VF-X
• VF-X-1
• VF-1 Valkyrie
• VF-X-2

Generation 1.5 - "Upgraded First Generation"
First Generation designs upgraded with Second Generation hardware drawn from the VF-4.

• Sv-51 Replica (Macross 30)
• VF-0 Phoenix Replica (Macross 30)
• VF-1 Valkyrie Plus (Blocks 6 and later, incl. VF-1X)
• VF-1P Freyja Valkyrie
• VF-1X++ Valkyrie Double Plus
• VF-1Z Valkyrie
• VF-1C Civilian Valkyrie
• VF-1EX Valkyrie EX
• VF-3000S Crusader
• VF-3000B Bomber Valkyrie

Generation 2 - "Specialization for Emigrant Fleets"
The hallmarks of the Second Generation designs include the adoption of Zentradi overtechnology, refinements for regime-optimized performance in either atmosphere or space, "lessons learned" from the First Space War, and optionally the adoption of particle beam weaponry. Most were intended for use by emigrant fleets, with low cost, simplified manufacturing, and parts-sharing.

• VF-X-3
• VF-4 Lightning III
• VF-3000S Crusader
• VF-3000B Bomber Valkyrie
• VF-5000 Star Mirage
• VF-5
• VF-6
• VF-7
• VF-9 Cutlass
• VF-X-10
• V-BR-2
• VA-X-3

Generation 2.5 - "Upgraded Second Generation"
Second Generation VFs that were modernized to keep them in service alongside Third Generation VFs.

• VF-4G Lightning III
• VF-5000G Star Mirage
• VF-9E Cutlass

Generation 3 - "Project Nova and Diversification"
The Third Generation VFs are defined chiefly by the Project Nova design contest that decided the generation's main variable fighter as a true all-purpose successor to the VF-1 Valkyrie, but also by the continuing diversification of variable craft design into dedicated Attacker and Bomber roles.

• VF-11A/B/C/D Thunderbolt
• VF-14 Vampire
• VF-15
• VF-17A/B/C Nightmare
• VA-14
• VAB-2
• VA-3 Invader
• VA-110 Variable Glaug
• VB-6 Konig Monster

Generation 3.5 - "Upgraded Third Generation"
Third Generation VFs that've been modernized or upgraded with technology drawn from Fourth Generation VFs to keep them viable or evaluate technologies meant for Fourth Generation implementation.

• VF-11MAXL Thunderbolt
• VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor
• VF-16
• VF-17D/F/S/T Nightmare
• XVF-19 (a modified VF-11)
• Fz-109 Elgersoln
• Az-130 Panzersoln
• FBz-99 Zaubergern

Generation 4 - "Project Super Nova: the Advanced Variable Fighter"
The Fourth Generation's distinctive design traits are among the best known in Macross. The adoption of the next-gen ARIEL airframe control AI, thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines, fighter-scale pinpoint barrier systems, and native compatibility for fold boosters. This generation was largely defined by Project Super Nova, the ultimately futile contest between the YF-19 and YF-21 at Eden's New Edwards Test Flight Center. The insurmountable technological and performance complications of the two designs led to a third design, the VF-171, becoming this generation's main variable fighter.

• VF-19 Excalibur
• YF-21
• VF-22 Sturmvogel II
• VF-22 Sturmvogel II (SMS Type)
• VF/B-22 Jagdvogel II
• VF-171 Nightmare Plus (Blocks I and II)
• VB-171 Nightmare Plus (Blocks I and II)
• RVF-171 Nightmare Plus (Blocks I and II)
• Sv-154 Svard
• Feios Valkyrie
• Fz-109G Elgersoln Gustaf

Generation 4.5 - "Upgraded Fourth Generation"
The Generation 4.5 designs are few, and consist mostly of VF designs that were either upgraded to evaluate tech for eventual adoption by Generation 5 designs, or ones that were upgraded in extremis to make them more effective in combat against the Vajra.

• VF-19ACTIVE Nothung
• VF-19EF Caliburn
• RVF-19EF Caliburn
• VF-19EF/A Excalibur ADVANCE
• VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei
• VF-22 Sturmvogel II "Manfred"
• VF-22 Sturmvogel II "Ushio Todo Custom"
• VF-171 Nightmare Plus (Block III and IIIF)
• VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX
• VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX Throne
• RVF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX
• Queadluun Alma

Generation 5 - "Project Evolution and Decentralized Development"
The Fifth Generation of Variable Fighters started development as a response to the disastrous first contact with the insectoid alien race known as the Vajra. Existing VF designs proved utterly inadequate to rival the performance of Vajra drones, and new programs were launched to develop countermeasures for the high-g forces and other major problems with the newly finalized Fourth Generation. The design hallmarks of Fifth Generation Variable Fighters include the adoption of Inertia Store Converter technology to insulate the cockpit against high g-forces, Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, contactless Linear Actuator technology for transformation, the ARIEL II airframe control AI, Extender Gear (EX-Gear) user interfaces, Advanced Energy Conversion Armor (ASWAG), and heavy quantum beam weaponry.

• YF-24
• YF-24 Evolution
• VF-24
• YF-25 Prophecy
• VF-25 Messiah
• YF-26
• YF-27 Shahar
• VF-27 Lucifer
• YF-28
• YF-29 Durandal
• YF-29B Percival (NUNS Ver.)
• YF-30 Chronos
• YF-30B Chronos (NUNS Ver.)
• VF-30
• VF-31 Kairos
• Sv-262 Draken III
• Queadluun Alma

Generation 5.5 - "Fold Wave Performance Enhancement"
The precise criteria for considering a design to belong to Generation 5.5 are unclear at the present time, but remarks by Tactical Sound Unit Walkure leader Kaname Buccaneer and team mechanic Makina Nakajima suggest that a Fifth Generation VF which has been upgraded with a fold wave-based performance enhancement system may technically qualify as Generation 5.5. The only craft explicitly identified as belonging to this VF Generation is the Xaos Valkyrie Works VF-31 Siegfried, which may indicate Generation 5.5 is an informal classification used only by Xaos. Previous media have suggested the VF-31 Siegfried and others are considered Fifth Generation VFs.

• YF-28
• YF-29 Durandal
• YF-29B Percival
• YF-30 Chronos
• YF-30B Chronos (NUNS Ver.)
• VF-30
• VF-31 Siegfried (Xaos Custom)
• Sv-262 Draken III

[Seto Kaiba]

The latest addition is the VF-1Z, a Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Battroid Valkyrie original variant which is said to be the final production variant of the VF-1 Valkyrie and the basis for the VF-1EX Valkyrie EX seen in Macross Delta.

[False Prophet]

The latest addition is the VF-1Z, a Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Battroid Valkyrie original variant which is said to be the final production variant of the VF-1 Valkyrie and the basis for the VF-1EX Valkyrie EX seen in Macross Delta.

So, when did it come out? Did it incorporated anything from the VF-4?

Also, what makes the Queadluun Alma special compared to the Rhea?

And, if you strip away the Fold Quartz-related technologies on the Draken, how does it fare to 5th generaion VF?

[Seto Kaiba]

So, when did it come out? Did it incorporated anything from the VF-4?

Master File's VF-1Z Valkyrie was a 2050s-era modernization similar to the VF-1X that updated the materials and onboard systems of the VF-1 to more recent standards. It was past the point where they were borrowing from the VF-4, so it was probably borrowing more from the VF-11-era tech at that point.

Also, what makes the Queadluun-Alma special compared to the Rhea?

Well, the main point that would make the Queadluun-Alma special compared to the Queadluun-Rhea/56 would be that it's a Variable Fighter.

The Queadluun-Alma is a further development/upgrade of the Feios Valkyrie, incorporating systems borrowed from the Queadluun-Rhea/56. It's basically a Queadluun-Rhea with a Feios-esque Fighter mode. Its armaments are very similar, but it has a high-powered railgun gunpod and a new system called the Astral System that uses Protodeviln remains to create a barrier that can theoretically deflect fire from a Macross Cannon.

Only one Queadluun-Alma has ever been encountered thus far, the one operated by the anti-government militant group FASCES pilot Angers 672 that was destroyed by Chelsea Scarlett in the YF-25-1 w/ Paladin Pack in 2058.

And, if you strip away the Fold Quartz-related technologies on the Draken, how does it fare to 5th generation VF?

Well, you wouldn't want to take ALL the Fold Quartz-related tech out of the Draken III... without the ISC, which is based on fold quartz, the power of the Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines would be injurious or fatal to the pilot. There wouldn't be much difference if all you did was take out the fold reheat, since literally all that the Draken III uses fold quartz for besides the ISC is essentially a glorified afterburner.

[Kuruni]

It's sadly uncited, but Japanese Wikipedia article on Orguss claims that there's statement about how the original 2062 AD world of Orguss is a parallel world which ASS-1 never fall on Earth (that would put it in the same boat with Macross II, I guess).

Assume that it's true, then the AD-11V Bronco (VF without arm, because there's no concern of fighting giant?) and by extend the Orguss and everything made by Chiram would be cousins that never be of Valkyrie.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's sadly uncited, but Japanese Wikipedia article on Orguss claims that there's statement about how the original 2062 AD world of Orguss is a parallel world which ASS-1 never fall on Earth (that would put it in the same boat with Macross II, I guess).

Huh... I know it's a popular misconception that Macross, Orguss, and Southern Cross were planned or made as alterniverse stories because they were all produced under the Super Dimension banner, but that was a branding thing imposed by the sponsor (Big West) not a creative choice.

I've never seen anything from Macross's creators to indicate that there was any more connection between the two shows than the nods included by Studio Nue and Artland between the two shows like the Orguss cameo in two episodes of Macross and a few lookalike characters in Orguss. The Macross series chronology hasn't, as far as I know, ever included a mention of a dimensional quake in 1995. The only major event that's ever mentioned in 1995 in early iterations of the timeline was the completion of a space station in Earth orbit.

Maybe they're thinking of one of the Super Robot Wars games that used the dimensional warhead detonation as the starting point for the crossover.

Assume that it's true, then the AD-11V Bronco (VF without arm, because there's no concern of fighting giant?) and by extend the Orguss and everything made by Chiram would be cousins that never be of Valkyrie.

The Bronco does look a lot like a F203 Dragon II from Macross's Unification Wars era... but they were designed by the same guy, so...

[Seto Kaiba]

https://imgur.com/a/QtbH3ex

So we've got a new VF design from Shoji Kawamori for the forthcoming Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! movie due out next year.

First blush reaction, this looks like a minimally-tweaked version of one of the early VF-27 drafts I remember seeing in Shoji Kawamori: the View Point of Visionary Creator years ago. The lack of an obvious canopy, the large sensor blisters, its delta wing with through-wing engine nacelles, small inward-canted stabilizers, etc. all positively scream General Galaxy's handiwork. This looks like nothing quite so much as a direct descendant of the VF-14. Five'll get you twenty this is either a new Dian Cecht SV Works unit or another General Galaxy 5th Generation main VF (perhaps an economized VF-27 derivative).

[DragoMaster009]

Say, what would you consider to be the main idea or focus in a hypothetical 6th Generation VF?

[Seto Kaiba]

Say, what would you consider to be the main idea or focus in a hypothetical 6th Generation VF?

That's a hard question to answer, given that we haven't had any real indication of where VFs are headed after the 5th Generation. Some sources, like Great Mechanics, have said that the 5th Generation is set to be the "last manned fighter", but we've heard that before and ultimately humans are always in the cockpit because highly autonomous AI is a sh*tshow and there is an incentive to develop ways for manned fighters to carry on and achieve higher performance that exceeds what the supposed last manned fighter was capable of.

My guess would be that tech like the fold wave system will become a standard feature thanks to synthetic fold quartz.

[False Prophet]

Say Kaiba, have you seen the silhouette of the new VF for the Delta movie? Do you have any speculation on it?

Also, a random question, but how many time did the Windermerian used the swords on their VF?