Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

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Freighttrain
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Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:10 am

Hello Gundam enthusiasts, I have made two blog posts on the Gundam wiki where I have categorised most of the mobile weapons from the After Colony and Anno Domini timelines in accordance with contemporary military classification using adjusted and/or improvised terminology, as no nation or other military force has such vehicles in their arsenal… yet.

A primary focal point of these classification systems is on how contemporary militaries would classify a vehicle such as a mobile suit, I propose the term SHMV (Super-heavy Humanoid Military Vehicle) or ‘shumvee’ as when using a size/chassis/battlespace format, that is the most succinct, comprehensive and appropriately ambiguous designation that I have been able to derive from contemporary military classification thus far and I am particularly interested in comments regarding that.

I have listed all of the mobile weapons from Anno Domini and most of those featured in media from After Colony with the exception of some obscurities that either lack sufficient information and/or have designs or capabilities that are exotic beyond what I would call hard science fiction. Though it is possible I may add such examples later.

I am particularly interested in comments regarding the comprehensiveness, accuracy or terminology of my classification system as well as the battlespace viability and distinctive equipment of any vehicles and please also feel free to also leave a comment on the actual blog post page if you have a profile on the Gundam wiki.




PS: I read something in the Forum Rules about posting links to other websites so my Gundam wiki blog is accessible by clicking the 'Visit website' button on my Mecha Talk profile page.

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:55 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:10 am
Hello Gundam enthusiasts, I have made two blog posts on the Gundam wiki where I have categorised most of the mobile weapons from the After Colony and Anno Domini timelines in accordance with contemporary military classification using adjusted and/or improvised terminology, [...]
Really, I think this is kind of a boondoggle... one of the staple tropes of mecha anime in general is that the invention of humanoid mobile weapons is a totally new battlefield paradigm. Mobile weapons almost invariably end up being their own new classification, as they're typically difficult or impossible to pigeonhole them into the same classifications our modern fighting vehicles use. The way they operate is so different to everything else that they end up having to invent new terminology to categorize them.

The only mecha anime I can think of that really puts serious effort into making things like giant robots fit into existing military structure and classifications is Macross.


Freighttrain wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:10 am
[...] I propose the term SHMV (Super-heavy Humanoid Military Vehicle) or ‘shumvee’ as when using a size/chassis/battlespace format, that is the most succinct, comprehensive and appropriately ambiguous designation that I have been able to derive from contemporary military classification thus far and I am particularly interested in comments regarding that.
"Mobile Suit" is a hell of a lot more succinct and communicates the same information far more accurately.

I mean, most Mobile Suits are not heavy or superheavy fighting vehicles by the standards of their day. For the most part, they're lightly armored, high mobility fighting vehicles somewhere closer to being a massively upscaled infantryman and an aircraft. It's Mobile Armors that are the superheavy units, and they're usually not humanoid. IMO, the "SHMV" idea is a pretty poor fit for any mobile weapon in Gundam. Mobile Suits are usually engineered to be highly versatile, being able to switch between battlefield roles easily with some minor equipment swaps or just picking up different weapons.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:31 pm

Hello Seto Kaiba and thank you for your reply, in response I would first like to say that I developed my mobile weapon classification systems with realism, practicality and preexisting military classification as the primary factors involved, I did not include mecha anime tropes and yes, it is difficult or rather impossible to classify mobile weapons using contemporary military classification, which is why I created all of those new acronyms and initialisms for this purpose.

Most contemporary military equipment and vehicles are known by acronyms/initialisms and those that I have created are focused only on accuracy pertaining to the type and primary capabilities of the vehicle as well as concision regarding this, and also to closely follow the trend of modern military acronym/initialism designations for vehicles.

Also 'Mobile suit' does seem similar enough to actual military terminology to be cool and realistic, though I think that 'shumvee' (SHMV, some are also 'shoovees' (SHEWV) and 'shamvees' (SHAMV) etc.) is more appealing as not only does it sound very similar to the ubiquitous 'humvee' (HMMWV) already in the service of many militaries (and for some time now), but also because it is an acronym like many other military vehicle designations and 'super-heavy humanoid military vehicle' describes what the vehicle is more accurately than simply 'mobile suit', which technically sounds more like it is describing a powered exoskeleton, rather than a type of vehicle.

So basically this would come down to what acronym/initialism would describe such a vehicle most accurately and I am particularly interested in ideas regarding improvements to that.

Now regarding my designation of 'super-heavy', this is in comparison to other military vehicles that shumvees would be fighting alongside such as tanks and other large military vehicles and being about twice as large as a heavy tank (or MBT), the designation of super-heavy is appropriate.

Though for larger vehicles like mobile armours, their chassis configurations are a lot more variable and so usually require their own specific designation per vehicle such as HLA-BAD (Heavy Linear Artillery - Brachiochelate Aerospace Destroyer (destroyer, as in the class of warship)) for the Alvatore and TBSV (Tetrabrachial Battlespace Superiority Vehicle) for the Gadelaza.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Deacon Blues » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:00 am

Here's the problem with your system: it creates misinformation and doesn't exist in any continuity. Trying to shoehorn this in in the Wiki already exacerbates their poor reputation. You're basically creating a system for no purpose.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:51 am

You say misinformation, exactly how is the information I have created in my classification systems incorrect?

You say my mobile weapon classification systems don't exist in any continuity, I really don't know what you mean by that, can you say exactly what it is you mean by that?

I've never heard of the Gundam wiki having a poor reputation and I certainly don't see how my blog posts would effect that at all, can you say how you think my blog posts exacerbate an alleged reputation problem with the Gundam wiki?

And my classification systems do have a purpose and this is mentioned in the second paragraph in each of my blog posts.

Can you see how what you've said doesn't make any sense, did you misread part or all of my blog posts or do you just need to elaborate more on exactly what it is you are talking about?

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:26 am

Freighttrain wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:31 pm
Hello Seto Kaiba and thank you for your reply, in response I would first like to say that I developed my mobile weapon classification systems with realism, practicality and preexisting military classification as the primary factors involved, [...]
No, you really didn't.

For starters, you based the whole damned thing on a misconception about how military terminology works. Terms like "Humvee" ("HMMWV") are NOT categories/classifications of vehicle. Those names/acronyms that you're on about are the names of those specific vehicle platforms/lines and the development programs which they were designed for. They're analogous to Gundam-specific terms referring to specific families/lines of mobile suit like "Taurus", "Graze", "GM", etc. The HMMWV's predecessor was the GPW (an acronym that actually isn't... it's a project code denoting the purpose, wheelbase, and engine manufacturer), and its successor is the JLTV. You're basically trying to map a commonly used genericized buzzword to an operational role... which is just plain wrong.

Humanoid mobile weapons are so fundamentally different from anything that a modern military fields that there's no way they would refer to them with the same, or similar, terms used for a series of 4WD utility trucks. Military terms are intended to be as clear and unambiguous as humanly possible to avoid confusion on the battlefield.


Freighttrain wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:31 pm
I did not include mecha anime tropes and yes, it is difficult or rather impossible to classify mobile weapons using contemporary military classification, which is why I created all of those new acronyms and initialisms for this purpose.
What we're saying here is you're wasting your time, precisely because it's essentially impossible to classify mobile weapons with modern terminology.


Freighttrain wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:31 pm
Now regarding my designation of 'super-heavy', this is in comparison to other military vehicles that shumvees would be fighting alongside such as tanks and other large military vehicles and being about twice as large as a heavy tank (or MBT), the designation of super-heavy is appropriate.
Military classification systems DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. It's not one class system for all vehicles together, they're specific to a type of platform. A light tank is far heavier than a medium or heavy military truck.

A light mobile suit is going to necessarily outclass even a heavy tank.

The classifications that already exist in the anime make vastly more sense, and are substantially more consistent and rational, than what you've come up with here.
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:26 am

Freighttrain wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:51 am
You say misinformation, exactly how is the information I have created in my classification systems incorrect?
It's not official Gundam information... therefore it has no place on the Gundam Wiki.

It's an arbitrary (and incorrect) classification made by a fan who doesn't understand military terminology.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Kuruni » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:54 am

Just for clarification, he wrote it on his blog, not the main wiki.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:01 pm

Actually I did develop my classification systems with realism, practicality and preexisting military classification as the primary factors involved and you haven't actually pointed out anything wrong with them. The mobile weapon acronym/initialism designations I devised are perfectly sound and unless you can fault them in anyway on an individual basis and suggest more realistic alternatives then say nothing more about that.

And those designations are only part of the classification of those mobile weapons, the broader classification should be apparent from the abridged contents and the dropdown box, that is in order of battlespace viability, combat role and then armour material or power source.

You say things such as how military terminology is meant to be as clear and unambiguous as possible, well I don't see anything wrong with my mobile weapons designations in regard to that and again, unless you can fault them in anyway on an individual basis and suggest more realistic alternatives, then don't mention it again.

And it's only impossible to classify humanoid military vehicles with contemporary military terminology simply because such vehicles do not yet exist in the arsenals of any military force, however it is possible to derive trends from the naming and designation conventions used in real military classification and then adjust and adapt those to describe humanoid military vehicles and that is exactly what I've done here.

Now my usage of the word 'super-heavy' in my classification of mobile suits as SHMVs etc. is actually sound and unless you can suggest a more realistic terminology or explain why 'mobile suit' is not only more realistic but also why it doesn't sound much more like it is describing a powered exoskeleton instead of a vehicle, then I don't see what else you can say regarding this.


And on your last message, my classification systems are blog posts and blog posts on wikis can basically be about anything even remotely related to the particular wiki's content and I haven't read any complaints regarding this either.

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:33 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:01 pm
Actually I did develop my classification systems with realism, practicality and preexisting military classification as the primary factors involved and you haven't actually pointed out anything wrong with them.
Your entire premise is fundamentally wrong, so there isn't really a lot of benefit in picking what you've written to pieces one line at a time.

What you've come up with does not actually reflect real world military practices. Rather, it reflects your serious misconceptions about them. Likewise, your classifications aren't actually based on anything besides your own wild and unfounded suppositions... which are completely at odds with the setting.

TL;DR you're pissing into the wind here.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Deacon Blues » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:49 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:51 am
You say misinformation, exactly how is the information I have created in my classification systems incorrect?
You just said it yourself, "information I have created in my classification systems". Nothing that you presented or outlined on the Wiki in your blog is even remotely accurate or how ANYTHING in Gundam is referred to. You created absolutely unnecessary acronyms for suits for no apparent reason (attempting to label them as the military would simply cannot be done). Just glossing over the Gundam Wing specs I can already see that you've in accurately pegged the Epyon as a "one of a kind" suits, which isn't the case because you have Frozen Teardrop which adds in variants of that suit. There's just glaring errors and I don't have the patience to go line by line and cross check your acronyms (which give me a headache).
You say my mobile weapon classification systems don't exist in any continuity, I really don't know what you mean by that, can you say exactly what it is you mean by that?
You list a suit as "Dynamic Coterminous Bimodular Configuration". If you crack open any Japanese book on this (or just look at MAHQ here about it), you can see that no such terminology exists or is utilized for any such suit in any series. You're basically creating needless and pointless titles for things, not to mention needed a gosh darned note card to remember what the hell each acronym stands for.
And my classification systems do have a purpose and this is mentioned in the second paragraph in each of my blog posts.
You're trying to quantify something that doesn't exist. Hell, the bloody military in the shows themselves don't even utilize fancy spec codings or what not!

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:39 am

@Seto Kaiba

Well despite the fact you didn't actually reply to any of my counterpoints, I'll reply only once more to your messages here.

You think the premise of my mobile weapons classification systems is fundamentally wrong, then why don't you explain exactly why it is you believe this.

And why don't you also explain why you believe my mobile weapon classification systems are not realistic.

Unless you can explain why you believe this is true without using misleading sophistry, then I have no reason to continue replying to your messages here.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:50 am

@Deacon Blue

Obviously my mobile weapon classification systems are using the mobile weapons from the After Colony and Anno Domini timelines as a basis for my projection of how an actual military would classify such vehicles and I mention this in the opening paragraphs, but it should be apparent regardless of that.

And despite having a couple of variants, I still classify the Gundam Epyon as an OoaK (One of a Kind) as those two are variants and as far as I am aware, neither the Epyon nor they were produced in numbers greater than one, so each of those three are all OoaK.

And of course my initialism of DCBC is not listed in any Gundam source material, I created that initialism to describe a vehicle that is; under its own power; able to significantly alter its chassis.

I really don't understand how this could be causing you or anyone else difficulty so I can only conclude that you are trying to cause confusion.
Last edited by Freighttrain on Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Arsarcana » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:22 am

The only one causing confusion here is you, by creating a classification system from nothing which even the in-universe organizations don't do, including literally making words up in order to do it. I tried looking up 'Brachiochelate' and the only place on the internet Google could find with it was your own writing. And you created another nonsense classification for the ELS, even though their existing name already perfectly describes them so you're just piling on redundant and thoroughly useless 'information'. There's really no point in digging deeper than those examples to show why the whole thing is an exercise in pointlessness.

Oh, and something else is being overlooked here: The model numbers of the various MS already do the sort of classification you're attempting, only much more sensibly. Using Wing as an example, you have things like OZ-[Number]MS (OZ-made, number x, standard Mobile Suit) with additional designations for special environments, like the Aries getting AMS (for Aerial), the Cancer and Pisces getting MMS (for Marine) etc.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by ShadowCell » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:30 am

hah, so that would make the Zeta Gundam a High-Visibility High-Performance Super-Heavy Humanoid Geometrically-Variable Deceased Significant Other-Powered All-Environment Multirole Military Vehicle
The mobile weapon acronym/initialism designations I devised are perfectly sound and unless you can fault them in anyway on an individual basis and suggest more realistic alternatives then say nothing more about that.
i mean, there actually is a "perfectly sound" way to do that. you call them mobile suits. and if you like, you can abbreviate it as MS. or you can call them mobile armors. and if you like, you can abbreviate it as MA.

only slightly less sardonically, and assuming you're not a troll, there is precedent in the actual real world (which i believe is pretty realistic) for a new kind of weapon creating a new paradigm with a new set of terminology. when they introduced airplanes into military usage, they didn't call them sky horses or air chariots or whatever, they called them airplanes, and built a whole new terminology off of that. mobile suits are consistently shown in Gundam to be revolutionary weapons that, like the airplane, usher in a new form of warfare that demands new terminology to describe what they are. i'm not sure how it's "unrealistic" that the language surrounding mobile suits does something that the literal actual maximally-realistic real world did previously.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:42 am

@Arsarcana

Hello, you mentioned that the in-universe organisations that utilise mobile weapons do not classify them in any system, well I would say that there is a lot of technical information that isn't depicted or described from Gundam lore for obvious reasons and I would say that in-universe, one could expect that the various militaries would actually classify their mobile weapons in some kind of system that best outlines their uses and capabilities.

And those made up words you mentioned, I actually define each of them in the terminology section and my revision of the the ELS acronym as 'METL' is literally a perfect improvement.

I am aware that some mobile weapons already include a kind of classification in their model numbers, but that wasn't good enough for the classification systems I created so I improved those.
Last edited by Freighttrain on Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:55 am

@ShadowCell

Hello, I haven't seen or researched the anime that the Zeta Gundam you mentioned is from so I'm not going to try and classify that at the moment haha.

What you say about just using the terminology of 'mobile suit', well that's all well and good for Gundam media but as I've mentioned here already, my classification systems are a projection of how real militaries would classify such vehicles and I chose to use the mobile weapons from the After Colony and Anno Domini timelines as examples for this as from what I've seen, those two timelines seem to espouse the genre of hard science fiction more than the others.

And as I've mentioned before here, the reason I don't think the terminology of 'mobile suit' is realistically feasible is because it sounds much more like it is describing a powered exoskeleton instead of a vehicle.

Now I really don't know why you would suspect my behaviour here could be trollish, do you think an internet troll would have devised those complex classification systems for the sheer purpose of trolling, though if you still think so then you should see my classification systems from other franchises too.

Though the thing about what you mention in the last paragraph of your reply is that these days there is already so much preexisting military technology, vehicles, classification and other infrastructure etc. that the development of gigantic humanoid vehicles probably wouldn't be anywhere near as significant as you or anyone else might think, at least regarding terminology.

And as I've proven in my classification systems, it is actually possible to adjust and adapt contemporary military equipment designation trends to such vehicles and quite comprehensively too.
Last edited by Freighttrain on Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Arsarcana » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:04 am

The fact that we're having this discussion at all should be a clue that nobody else thinks your classification system is an improvement on what already exists and you're just adding confusing new terms that nobody in-universe uses. Hell, it's not even used in the real world in the way you're doing it here. The US Navy didn't call its primary fighter for thirty years a N-VG-MR-ASF (Naval Variable Geometry Multi-Role Air Superiority Fighter), they called it the F-14, full stop. People knew what it was for; they didn't need to create a word salad to describe every possible aspect of it.
Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:42 am
And those made up words you mentioned, I actually define each of them in the terminology section and my revision of the the ELS acronym as 'METL' is literally a perfect improvement.
No, no it isn't.
I've mentioned here already, my classification systems are a projection of how real militaries would classify such vehicles and I chose to use the mobile weapons from the After Colony and Anno Domini timelines as examples for this as from what I've seen, those two timelines seem to espouse the genre of hard science fiction more than the others.
Just to remind you, Anno Domini would be the setting where there's a magic particle that produces what's basically a perpetual motion machine, whose output can make you capable of telepathy, lets you weaponize the uncertainty principle and enables FTL among other things. And After Colony is the Gundam franchise that most blatantly sneers at the square-cube law. Seriously, look at the size of those machines and then look at their masses... Gundam is not especially hard sci-fi, no matter how detailed the explanations for how the technology works can get in some of its incarnations.
And as I've mentioned before here, the reason I don't think the terminology of 'mobile suit' is realistically feasible is because it sounds much more like it is describing a powered exoskeleton instead of a vehicle.
That's your problem, not the franchise's. There's a reason they specifically call spacesuits 'Normal Suits' in UC to distinguish them...
Last edited by Arsarcana on Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by ShadowCell » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:10 am

Though the thing about what you mention in the last paragraph of your reply is that these days there is already so much preexisting military technology, vehicles, classification and other infrastructure etc. that the development of gigantic humanoid vehicles probably wouldn't be anywhere near as significant as you or anyone else might think, at least regarding terminology.
maybe you should watch some of these Gundam shows. they can be pretty cool!

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by yazi88 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:23 am

This is one of the most confusing threads I've seen in a long time...

Freighttrain are you trying to write a fanfic article on Gundam? It sounds like you are using terms that only you seem to understand trying to categorize units in a very obtuse way despite there already being mostly logical in universe manuals and technical data...

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