How funnels are controlled?

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False Prophet
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How funnels are controlled?

Post by False Prophet » Wed May 15, 2019 9:31 am

So, when a Newtype pilot controls funnels/bits, would he gives control like "move up", "move down", etc. Or does he have to imagine the funnels' movement within his mind? I kind of incline to the second method, but what would happen if the funnels are out of the pilot's view? I suppose that inside funnels are programs to have them work automatically when being given orders like "attacking that target".

I come up with the above questions when playing PSVR and Zone of the Enders VR for the first time. If just trying to pilot your MS without being hit is that hard, then I can't imagine the strain of doing that AND controlling Funnels with your mind at the same time. At best, the movement of the funnels might be heavily predictable.

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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by TDR-10M Thunderbolt » Wed May 15, 2019 2:26 pm

We don't have a lot to go on here, but I'll share what I do know.

We know that some degree of mental energy/focus is required, thanks to Char's Counterattack. Gyunei and Quess are both visibly upset and confused that Amuro's able to keep his funnels active longer than they can.

Beyond that? I'm guessing when I suggest the following: It appears to me that funnels operate on emotion/instinct/broad-idea, and the funnel or the mobile suit itself figures out the finer details. When Amuro was being shocked during another fight with Gyunei, his funnels just lashed out at the source of the problem. Amuro was in no condition to exercise fine control over what exactly the funnels were doing, he just emoted at them and they handled the rest.

My guess is funnels require a basic intent and very basic game-plan from the pilot, then the weapon or host mobile suit figures out the rest. If your emotions/thoughts are racing, you might get the rapidly swirling storm of funnels we see in some media. If you want to attack from below, you might get that too. I doubt it's moving truly 100% under the pilot's control though.

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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed May 15, 2019 3:47 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:31 am
So, when a Newtype pilot controls funnels/bits, would he gives control like "move up", "move down", etc. Or does he have to imagine the funnels' movement within his mind? I kind of incline to the second method, but what would happen if the funnels are out of the pilot's view? I suppose that inside funnels are programs to have them work automatically when being given orders like "attacking that target".
Given the incredible precision we've seen funnels and bits used with, I think it's unlikely that they're just executing preprogrammed attack sequences based on target selection. The pilot has to be exerting direct control over them through the psycommu to do something as fiddly as neatly snipping off all the limbs of a Jegan.

My guess, based on what I've read, is that the psycommu system in the Mobile Suit is translating the pilot's mental image of what he wants the funnels/bits/etc. to do into discrete commands that are then transmitted out to the remote weapons themselves. The pilot just has to picture the funnels cutting the target's limbs off and the MS's computer tries to compute a way to make that command into a practical action.

Psycommu systems apparently put a pretty unpleasant burden on the pilot's mind, which can cause headaches and mental fatigue at a greater rate than normal and is probably related to Gyunei and Quess's frustration that Amuro could keep his going for longer than they could.

False Prophet wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:31 am
I come up with the above questions when playing PSVR and Zone of the Enders VR for the first time. If just trying to pilot your MS without being hit is that hard, then I can't imagine the strain of doing that AND controlling Funnels with your mind at the same time. At best, the movement of the funnels might be heavily predictable.
Well, the various flavors of Newtype and things similar to Newtypes like Innovators, X-Rounders, and so on usually count some form of enhanced spatial awareness among their superhuman abilities. That probably helps.
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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by E08 » Fri May 17, 2019 12:42 am

TDR-10M Thunderbolt wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:26 pm
We know that some degree of mental energy/focus is required, thanks to Char's Counterattack. Gyunei and Quess are both visibly upset and confused that Amuro's able to keep his funnels active longer than they can.
As per the archived Gundam Official website, Amuro's fin funnels can last longer as they can use their three movable sections for AMBAC, conserving their propellant supply.

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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by Dark Duel » Fri May 17, 2019 8:50 am

Additionally, the Fun Funnels are technically more like Bits because IIRC they have their own onboard generators, whereas traditional funnels are only equipped with a E-Cap that must be periodically recharged by redocking to the MS itself- this gives them much longer autonomous operating time
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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by domino » Fri May 17, 2019 12:00 pm

In UC anime, it appears that a Newtype's special spatial awareness is crucial to operating most funnel systems so there seems to be more than just selecting a target or specific parts of a target. Unlike the incom systems which use wire-guided systems, it appears that a Newtype has to use their spatial awareness to actually position and aim the funnel(s)

On a separate note, has it been confirmed that UC funnels can be recharged by re-docking with the mobile suit? We never see that in CCA. I'm not sure about ZZ. However Unicorn does have that one Jaqd Doga funnel redocking to the mobile suit. Would that mean the funnels could potentially recharge both the E-Cap and propellant?

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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by domino » Fri May 17, 2019 12:42 pm

In UC anime, it appears that a Newtype's special spatial awareness is required for pinpoint accuracy and maneuvering the funnels into position. This would explain why non-Newtype remote weapons like Incoms utilize wire-guides. So it's possible that UC funnels require a Newtype to not only mentally select a target but to also maneuver and position funnels while also piloting their own mobile suit. That would certainly require a high-level of concentration and intuition!

While stated on the archived Gundam Official, have we seen any animation of UC funnels being recharged by redocking with mobile suit? The only possible instance I can think of is the Sleeves Jaqd Doga that retreived a funnel mid-battle

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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by Kuruni » Sat May 18, 2019 12:03 am

According to Japanese Wikipedia, citing the manga itself, the new Dag Doll from Moon Gundam make another hint on mental fatigue of using psycommu system. It has Machine Head Mode which increase efficiency of its psycommu system that even a weak newtype can control all of its remote weapon (5 funnels, 30 reflector bits), but it put high burden on pilot's brain and it's not recommend to activate it for longer than 3 minutes.
バックパックが垂直に起立して頭部と合体することで、サイコミュの情報伝達・処理能力が3倍となる「マシン・ヘッド・モード」となり、パイロットのニュータイプ能力が高くなくても多数の端末によるオールレンジ攻撃が可能となる。ただしパイロットの脳への負担が大きいため、3分以上の使用は推奨されていない。
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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by False Prophet » Sat May 18, 2019 7:16 pm

Piloting an MS is stressful enough, I think, and with the strain of controlling Funnels, not many would be able to withstand it in an extended period of time. In that sense many Funnels with their limited fuel capacity can be a good sense, since they put down a limit to how long should the pilot operate them.

Again on the topic of visualization, how accurate are Newtype ability to "see" things that are beyond their view like radar? I know that Newtypes can feel the "pressure" of someone approaching, but to use that ability to pinpoint an exact point in space?

Also, I presume that beam rifles generate heat when they fire, and the heat is dissipated by inner cooling mechanism (convection works less well in low-gravity, right?) But do Funnels have inner cooling mechanism?

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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun May 19, 2019 10:45 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:47 pm
Given the incredible precision we've seen funnels and bits used with, I think it's unlikely that they're just executing preprogrammed attack sequences based on target selection. The pilot has to be exerting direct control over them through the psycommu to do something as fiddly as neatly snipping off all the limbs of a Jegan.

My guess, based on what I've read, is that the psycommu system in the Mobile Suit is translating the pilot's mental image of what he wants the funnels/bits/etc. to do into discrete commands that are then transmitted out to the remote weapons themselves. The pilot just has to picture the funnels cutting the target's limbs off and the MS's computer tries to compute a way to make that command into a practical action.
Slight difference here. Whatever computer used to translate and calculate the thought of the pilot must be in the Psycommu remote weapons(i.e. Bits, Funnels, etc.), since the only signal they can sent out from the MS is via Psycommu waves.(They can presumably use remote weapons with laser signals, but we have but two examples, the GM Juggler and the laser guided missile in Gundam Century)

The onboard Psycommu system of the MS only amplifies the Psycommu waves the pilot is giving out. Since they seem to be unable to create and send signals of Psycommu waves from a machine(If they can, they would not need NTs for the remote weapons), translating the waves onboard the MS makes little sense unless you are using the Psyco-frame which controls the MS instead of the remote weapons.
Well, the various flavors of Newtype and things similar to Newtypes like Innovators, X-Rounders, and so on usually count some form of enhanced spatial awareness among their superhuman abilities. That probably helps.
NTs have more variants.
Some have that kind of extra spatial awareness and some don't, which may or may not affect their ability to use remote weapons but surely affect their accuracy.
Some, like Shin Matsunaga, cannot use remote weapons at all but still exhibits the high awareness and has a dodge rate on par with NT, which is impossible for OT.

Mt own fan theory is that since they only have a handful of NTs to test with in the beginning during OYW, and most of the data seems to be from Lalah Sune, the Psycommu wave they have enough data to translate is just that, and any NT with a signal too different from their data will result in the computer failing to understand and thus cannot translate it into useful control signals. While they did more research after the war, on Axis side most are then Haman Karn's and Elpeo Ple's data and I wonder if EFF even got enough of the technology to add their own data base on it or just select whoever's psycommu waves are close enough and brainwash them to match the waves.
False Prophet wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:16 pm
Again on the topic of visualization, how accurate are Newtype ability to "see" things that are beyond their view like radar? I know that Newtypes can feel the "pressure" of someone approaching, but to use that ability to pinpoint an exact point in space?

Also, I presume that beam rifles generate heat when they fire, and the heat is dissipated by inner cooling mechanism (convection works less well in low-gravity, right?) But do Funnels have inner cooling mechanism?
NTs work with Psycommu waves, which are waves in Minovsky particles. They can sense and create waves in the dispersed Minovsky particles and thus can "see" more than OT.
How accurate they can do it differs from person to person.

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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by False Prophet » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:17 am

Say, anyone here familiar with how friend-foe identification happens in U.C.? Beside sending and receiving signals, or thermal imaging? Do funnels have on-board cameras to help identify the target, or do they have to rely completely on the pilots' intuition?

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Re: How funnels are controlled?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:41 am

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:17 am
Say, anyone here familiar with how friend-foe identification happens in U.C.? Beside sending and receiving signals, or thermal imaging? Do funnels have on-board cameras to help identify the target, or do they have to rely completely on the pilots' intuition?
Oddly, I can't recall many mentions of friend or foe detection in Gundam.

Mobile Suit Gundam: MS IGLOO 603 indicated that both civilian and military vessels are using a conventional radio-based IFF, and optical target recognition IFF systems when Minovsky particle density is too high for the radio-based IFF. Zeon's GM Camouf was a Zaku II stripped of its armor and covered in thin metal sheeting sculpted so its profile would be close enough for the EFF's optical IFF system to mistakenly tag it as friendly.

Most of the other mentions of IFF in Gundam (e.g. Unicorn and Sentinel) are apparently modern radio-based IFF.
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