Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

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False Prophet
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Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by False Prophet » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:52 am

We are all familiar with the common loadout template of mass-production mobile suits operate in both space and on Earth: vulcans, a firearm, one or two close-combat weapons, and a shield (the mobile suits can also be compatible with anti-armour weapons like bazookas and missiles, though they may not always carry these weapons). Do you think that this template is as good as it can be, or do you want to make any change to it?

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:33 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:52 am
We are all familiar with the common loadout template of mass-production mobile suits operate in both space and on Earth: vulcans, a firearm, one or two close-combat weapons, and a shield (the mobile suits can also be compatible with anti-armour weapons like bazookas and missiles, though they may not always carry these weapons). Do you think that this template is as good as it can be, or do you want to make any change to it?
Honestly, I think the most glaring omission from the standard Mobile Suit armament is the lack of any kind of an area denial weapon or at least long-range ordnance with a large blast radius to deter enemies from closing and reduce an incoming enemy's numbers.

Every weapon a Mobile Suit typically has is relatively short-ranged due to Minovsky particle interference, and either requires extreme precision (beam weapons and machine guns) or contact proximity (beam sabers or heat weapons). They need something broadly analogous to a hand grenade that can be used to break up enemy formations and stop advancing troops. Blast-fragmentation wouldn't be too effective, but something like a cluster bomb loaded up with magnetic bomblets that swarm-detonate or a continuous rod warhead that could slice through joints.

I'd also be tempted to suggest a large-bore but short-barrel cannon equipped with something analogous to an AHEAD round... high initial velocity kinetic penetrators akin to high-powered buckshot.
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by False Prophet » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:19 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:33 pm
Honestly, I think the most glaring omission from the standard Mobile Suit armament is the lack of any kind of an area denial weapon or at least long-range ordnance with a large blast radius to deter enemies from closing and reduce an incoming enemy's numbers.

Every weapon a Mobile Suit typically has is relatively short-ranged due to Minovsky particle interference, and either requires extreme precision (beam weapons and machine guns) or contact proximity (beam sabers or heat weapons). They need something broadly analogous to a hand grenade that can be used to break up enemy formations and stop advancing troops. Blast-fragmentation wouldn't be too effective, but something like a cluster bomb loaded up with magnetic bomblets that swarm-detonate or a continuous rod warhead that could slice through joints.

I'd also be tempted to suggest a large-bore but short-barrel cannon equipped with something analogous to an AHEAD round... high initial velocity kinetic penetrators akin to high-powered buckshot.
Regarding the area-denial weapon, how about the beam strings used by Zanscare mobile suits? And for the cannon, how well do you think the railguns and armor-piercing kunai would work for this purpose?

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:48 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:19 pm
Regarding the area-denial weapon, how about the beam strings used by Zanscare mobile suits?
No, the Zanscare Empire's beam string technology is just a more elaborate version of the heat rod and heat wire on the MS-07 Gouf. It's a melee weapon.

An area denial weapon is something that can be used to discourage an enemy advance across a wide area long-term like a cluster of caltrops, mines, or the lingering hazards of a radiological, biological, or chemical weapon.

I'm thinking of something along the lines of a claymore, that a mobile suit can deploy to be triggered later either by proximity to an enemy or remotely by the mobile suit that deployed it to discourage a hostile force from closing to a range where they can effectively use their machine guns, beam rifles, and melee weapons.


False Prophet wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:19 pm
And for the cannon, how well do you think the railguns and armor-piercing kunai would work for this purpose?
Not even close.

Putting aside the question of whether a mobile suit even has the physical dexterity to use a throwing knife, that's an exclusively short-ranged weapon that requires extremely high precision to be effective... the polar opposite of what I'm talking about.

Railguns generally fire inert heavy metal projectiles at high velocities, and thus require extremely high precision to use effectively at long ranges.

What I'm talking about is something like an anti-aircraft cannon or field artillery piece firing timed or proximity-triggered shells that could blanket a large area with fire at long range and thus not require high precision because aiming is an inexact science in high Minovsky particle conditions.
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:13 pm

You mean something like the Clay Bazooka form Z Gundam, though likely with more range and scattering?

I think the closest I can think of are the shield grenades used by the Gear Dogas and Jegans in CCA, where they would fire a bunch at an incoming group of enemies to block their way, taking out a few of them in the process and forcing the rest to maneuver around the cluster of explosions. The main drawback is that these would seem to be single use weapons, thus limiting their usefulness.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by False Prophet » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:43 am

Could bazooka fires the kind of glue that you see in CCA and Victory? I am thinking about some kind of projectile weapon whose ammunition contains chemicals that react to MS armor the same way napalm to human skin.

(Speaking of which, had there been any supplement material stating that MS bazooka could use a wide variety of specialized ammunitions?)

Also, regarding area-denial weapon, like Jager said ammunition is a problem (though I am not so sure about the details like how many mines could the Gyan carry.) Do you guys have any idea to resolve this problem?

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:08 pm

I do want to point out that there do are examples of mass production units that actually worked quite well despite being equipped with a single firearm:

-The Taurus in Gundam Wing, equipped with a single beam rifle and able to outmaneuver Leos in space.
-The Virgo also from Gundam Wing, though technically a mobile doll rather than a MS, equipped with a single beam cannon and planet defensers for protection.

Perhaps a more palpable example can be seen in the progression of the OYW:

-Zakus were able to easily outmaneuver any other kind of weapon in space before the EF had its own MS, and even on Earth they had some advantage given their high point of view, which gave them an edge in a warfare that employed Minvoksy particles which benefitted combat relying on direct visuals.
-The Gundam and derived GM seem to have been produced to counter the Zaku, having a focus in melee combat that the MS-06 lacked (the MS-06A altogether lacked any melee features & equipment), a shield can protect them from their common 120mm machine gun and better mobility on Earth, among other features.
-In turn, the Gelgoog was essentially created with the intention to counter the Gundam (& GM) in mind: not only it used beam weapons that rendered the Gundam's gundarium alloy useless, but it also had some crude means to defend from beam weapons, including it's spinning beam naginata and its zulu shield that had an early version of the anti-beam coating, though only effective when taking hits at an angle. It also had a better melee capabilities.

My point is that sometimes the best loadout is simply the one prepared specifically to deal with a particular type of enemy, and there isn't something such as an absolute "best loadout". Just look at the case of Iron Blood Orphans, where beam weapons were rendered useless, ranged combat is not very effective and using large (& usually rather heavy) melee weapons seemed to generally be the best approach.

Going back to area denial, I think that there are many examples scattered here and there of a few tactics which such purpose, ranging from simplistic direct use weapons such as cracker grenades, to more elaborate ones such as minefields and other traps, even on space. For the former we are even aware of the existence of specialized units like the MS-06F Zaku Minelayer and the RB-79M Ball Bomber. As for a quick example of the later, comes to mind the last episode of MS Igloo 2, where Zeon prepared a trench which was hidden using smoke, which led to several RGM-79[G]s and tanks to fall inside, after which Zeon detonated many explosives prepared earlier.

Utlimately, the closest to a common area denial tactic might simply be the support fire from a mothership, which might have a low chance of actually hitting enemy MS, but will force them to maneuver around instead of allowing them to advance in direct line towards it.

Outside of that, we have a couple of examples of MS with shields with internal mine deployers such the Gyan and Hamma Hamma, which are in an odd spot, both being produced in only small quantities, but both shields seen used by other units in a few instances, which could mean that the shields themselves might not be as rare.

Ironically, I do can think of one kind of weapon that could have been assumed to have such purpose, but ultimately isn't seen used in such fashion: the Chain Mine first used the Kampfer and later the Dendobrium. In theory I think this weapon could be separated into several mines that could scatter over a large area, but in practice it's usually seen used as a sort of whip that latch into the enemy as a whole and then detonates.

Lastly, I think that scatter beam cannons (deflection type mega particle cannons that use i-fields to bend and spread the beams), such as those found on the Zanzibar or Psycho Gundam, might be the most effective means of area denial in UC, assuming the weapon in question has enough range and power supply to keep up the barrage. The Psycho Gundam in particular seemed quite effective at pinning down the Karaba forces trying to approach through the air.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:46 am

The reason why there's no area-denial weapons is probably the problem of using such weapons in space. Ignore me if you are talking about atmospheric/gravity-bound situations.

MS are space use units after all, they are only used inside the atmosphere for plot reasons in most of the times.

The MS-06 does have grenades, but the effective area is not going to be of much use considering the large space they are fighting in and the size of a MS.

The problem here is
1) space is huge, and that is an understatement... This range cannot even reach the other side of an Island 3 space colony. Unless you are trying to kill everyone inside the colony, instead of another MS outside. It is almost impossible to hit a random target in space that is trying to dodge an incoming grenade without guidance. With thrust, a MS can surely move faster than the grenade does.
Even the larger 360mm giant bazooka rounds are essentially precision weapons, they still rely on getting to very close to the target before it can do any significant damage to a MS.
A 0083 Area-denial weapon is the 108 Micro-missile on the GP03, with rounds that seem to be about 900mm in diameter, a single of those are still not really enough to be used as an area-denial weapon, in Evolve 4 we still see MSs dodging a few of those before getting hit by the overwhelming numbers.
I don't see a reasonably sized MS weapon that can do the same thing as the micro-missiles.

2) Inertia
Most of these weapons rely on Shrapnel will have to deal with the ever increasing damage radius of them in space. They may not be effective as a area-denial weapon, but surely you don't want any of the pieces to hit you by chance. If you have mass-production units using these weapons in the Earth sphere orbits and did not plan for it so they fall into a celestrial body like the moon or the Earth, you'd get the Kessler syndrome pretty quick before you can even clean them up.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by yazi88 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:15 pm

Would the Val Varo's plasma leader count as a area denial weapon? Although its on a very limited production mobile armor rather than full mass production unit..

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:21 am

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:15 pm
Would the Val Varo's plasma leader count as a area denial weapon? Although its on a very limited production mobile armor rather than full mass production unit..
They are likely carried over from MAX-03 Adzam.

I don't think they realistically cover enough area to be area denial?
In show the area covered is at most 40~60m.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by yazi88 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:25 am

Plasma leader covers a wider area compared to the Adzam weapon especially since its using 3 units in a triange formation. I believe that is bigger than the Adzam's weapon?

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:17 am

yazi88 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:25 am
Plasma leader covers a wider area compared to the Adzam weapon especially since its using 3 units in a triange formation. I believe that is bigger than the Adzam's weapon?
They still probably won't cover something like a kilometer?
Space is still too huge for that.

Also, I just finish building the Val Varo model yesterday night, each of those 3 units are bigger than a regular MS in size (About the size of 2.5 balls strap together)
Can't really become MS loadouts.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by False Prophet » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:37 pm

Anyone here has looked into the Silver Bullet Supressor from NT? Do you feel it weird that Banagher insisted on using the Beam Magnum on a Silver Bullet, at the expense of the right arm? How much lethal power does an 0090s U.C. all-range beam rifle need to possess?

Also, if I remember correctly, on Mark Simmons' site there is an article that mentions the Alex Gundam's hand conducts energy for the beam saber it holds. Does the same thing happen with the Silver Bullet Suppressor, and the right arm malfunction because it can not supply enough power for the beam magnum? Probably not, since the basic Silver Bullet has way more output than the Unicorn.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by yazi88 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:04 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:37 pm
Anyone here has looked into the Silver Bullet Supressor from NT? Do you feel it weird that Banagher insisted on using the Beam Magnum on a Silver Bullet, at the expense of the right arm? How much lethal power does an 0090s U.C. all-range beam rifle need to possess?

Also, if I remember correctly, on Mark Simmons' site there is an article that mentions the Alex Gundam's hand conducts energy for the beam saber it holds. Does the same thing happen with the Silver Bullet Suppressor, and the right arm malfunction because it can not supply enough power for the beam magnum? Probably not, since the basic Silver Bullet has way more output than the Unicorn.
Beam magnum uses cartridges, it does not rely on the mobile suit's reactor to power it. Most beam rifles to my knowledge around this time are internally powered and I think most still use e-pacs (I could be wrong here). Cause the Unicorn would not have enough power to use the beam magnum if it was powered by the MS's reactor. Unicorn's reactor is not that powerful, its enough for a general purpose prototype unit like the Zeta and Nu Gundam, not heavy firepower like the ZZ Gundam and S Gundam.

The Unicorn has a reinforced frame to handle it, compared to regular mass produced MS, I'm guessing the recoil is too much for regular MS to handle. That beam magnum has far more power than a lot of MS rifles at the time. I don't recall the power of its shots though, but its probably up there with beam smartguns if we are talking about handheld beam rifle power, I'm not including the hyper mega cannon from the Full Armored ZZ/FAZZ units.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:57 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:37 pm
How much lethal power does an 0090s U.C. all-range beam rifle need to possess?
Not all that much more than a typical beam rifle from the One Year War era, based on stated output power... about 1.9 megawatts seems to be the average on beam rifles issued to mass production mobile suits of the late UC 0080s and beyond. High-performance one-offs have been equipped with greater firepower, like the Zeta Gundam's XBR-M-87A2 which was rated for 5.7 megawatts.

The RX-0's beam magnum kind of falls under the header of "awesome but impractical". It's a really inefficient scaled-up beam rifle that achieves significantly greater destructive power because it consumes an entire e-pack every time it fires. That same e-pack in a regular beam rifle would be good for 12-16 shots. This supposedly gives the beam magnum 4x the firepower of a conventional beam rifle.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:37 pm
Also, if I remember correctly, on Mark Simmons' site there is an article that mentions the Alex Gundam's hand conducts energy for the beam saber it holds. Does the same thing happen with the Silver Bullet Suppressor, and the right arm malfunction because it can not supply enough power for the beam magnum? Probably not, since the basic Silver Bullet has way more output than the Unicorn.
From what I've read, the Silver Bullet Suppressor's problem was that it was that firing the beam magnum produced far more mechanical stress (from recoil?) on the arm than the arm was designed to withstand.


yazi88 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:04 pm
Beam magnum uses cartridges, it does not rely on the mobile suit's reactor to power it.
As far as I've read, the cartridges are e-packs and the individual shots are still triggered by additional energy from the mobile suit's reactor. The greater power is achieved by burning an entire e-pack cartridge every time the weapon fires.
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:57 pm
Not all that much more than a typical beam rifle from the One Year War era, based on stated output power... about 1.9 megawatts seems to be the average on beam rifles issued to mass production mobile suits of the late UC 0080s and beyond. High-performance one-offs have been equipped with greater firepower, like the Zeta Gundam's XBR-M-87A2 which was rated for 5.7 megawatts.

The RX-0's beam magnum kind of falls under the header of "awesome but impractical". It's a really inefficient scaled-up beam rifle that achieves significantly greater destructive power because it consumes an entire e-pack every time it fires. That same e-pack in a regular beam rifle would be good for 12-16 shots. This supposedly gives the beam magnum 4x the firepower of a conventional beam rifle.
For reference, the Gundam Mk-II Beam Rifle by AE with the same shaped E-pac has an output of 2.6MW and a maximum of 7 shots at max power if I recalled correctly.

Which may be indicating they don't have to operate at the stated output power.

The standard E-pac with the same shape seems to have been in use since 0083 on GP01, 03S and 04's beam rifle (rated 1.5MW) and beam long rifle. You can also see the same thing on the TR series of the Titans Test Team of AOZ and the RMS-106E, also with a modified beam rifle based on the Gundam Mk-II rifle.

I'd imagine they may have increased the capacity through out the years, but we can at least estimate the Beam Magnum to have at least 18.2MW if it spend the whole E-pac in one shot.(unless it has previously fired a few shots before hand) I'd also imagine such use is really inefficient.(They likely picked the most efficient output for the standard issue beam rifle and anything above that is just dropping the efficiency)

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:36 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:54 pm
For reference, the Gundam Mk-II Beam Rifle by AE with the same shaped E-pac has an output of 2.6MW and a maximum of 7 shots at max power if I recalled correctly.

Which may be indicating they don't have to operate at the stated output power.
I unfortunately do not have any technical publications covering the RX-178 Gundam Mk.II in my collection, so I'll have to take your word for it on the output rating and endurance of the rifle's e-pack. Though it's unsurprising that, even if EFSF logistics standardized the e-pack design, that different models of beam rifle would offer different performance with the same e-pack model since it's not a battery so much as a magnetic trap full of Minovsky particles, the output of which is going to be dependent on the efficiency and capacity of the compression system in the beam rifle itself.

IIRC, this is the basic era where Gundam-mounted beam weapons tended to be noticeably more powerful than those of the standard mobile suit.


MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:54 pm
I'd imagine they may have increased the capacity through out the years, but we can at least estimate the Beam Magnum to have at least 18.2MW if it spend the whole E-pac in one shot.(unless it has previously fired a few shots before hand) I'd also imagine such use is really inefficient.(They likely picked the most efficient output for the standard issue beam rifle and anything above that is just dropping the efficiency)
The only source I have declines to give an actual figure and just says "4 times the output of a standard beam rifle"... which raises the question of what they even benchmarked it against. That could be anywhere from ~8 megawatts to over 22 depending on what they compared it to.

The logistical inefficiency of the beam magnum is just atrocious though. This thing is burning through enough e-packs to arm an entire platoon of mobile suits every time it sorties.
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:17 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:36 am
Which may be indicating they don't have to operate at the stated output power.
I unfortunately do not have any technical publications covering the RX-178 Gundam Mk.II in my collection, so I'll have to take your word for it on the output rating and endurance of the rifle's e-pack. Though it's unsurprising that, even if EFSF logistics standardized the e-pack design, that different models of beam rifle would offer different performance with the same e-pack model since it's not a battery so much as a magnetic trap full of Minovsky particles, the output of which is going to be dependent on the efficiency and capacity of the compression system in the beam rifle itself.

IIRC, this is the basic era where Gundam-mounted beam weapons tended to be noticeably more powerful than those of the standard mobile suit.
The 1.5MW is just from mahq's data, since I am at work, I don't have the books with me.
The fun thing is, all of the standard issue MS don't use this kind of E-pac at all.
EFSF's GM II beam rifle doesn't even look like it has a removable magazine, Nemo uses the same model. GM III and Nero, while uses different guns, still looks like it doesn't have a removable magazine.
The Jegan and Gustav Karl's beam rifle does have a magazine, but it looks more like a bullet based magazine(probably doesn't help when most of the era's MS uses knock offs of enlarged human assault rifles, the ReGZ custom had an AK-47 which started a joke in Japan about how multiple experienced carpenters had to cut down some ancient giant tree and use all of their might to carve out the perfectly shaped wooden parts)
Jesta uses a modified Jegan gun.
Rick Dias, uses the E-Pac of the Hyakushiki line, which the Delta plus' followed. The fun thing is, even the Z plus series use this kind of E-Pac instead of the Mk-II type.
Not even the ReZEL, the higher end of mass-production models uses the Mk-II type E-Pac.

Also, while we see the AE made Mk-II rifle using this kind of E-Pac, along with Zeta, Nu, Unicorn and earlier GP series, the most extensive use of this kind of E-pac seems to be Titans Test Team.
They equipped the RGM-79CR, SR and TR-1 with modified guns based on the Mk-II rifle (which really doesn't make much sense unless they are designed by AE instead) They even have the more iconic holders that clip two of these E-pacs together and carry 4 spares instead of 2 behind the shield, while the Unicorn uses a different method to stack the packs up in a curved angle.

A standard issue E-pac where no standard unit uses, let's add it to another (stupid) mystery of UC.
The logistical inefficiency of the beam magnum is just atrocious though. This thing is burning through enough e-packs to arm an entire platoon of mobile suits every time it sorties.
I guess if the rest of the platoon doesn't use this kind of E-pac, they are just randomly laying on the ship? :roll:

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by E08 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:38 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:54 pm
For reference, the Gundam Mk-II Beam Rifle by AE with the same shaped E-pac has an output of 2.6MW and a maximum of 7 shots at max power if I recalled correctly.
According to the manual of the HG Revive AEUG ver., it should be 7 shots at normal output and 3 shots at max output.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:54 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:36 am

The only source I have declines to give an actual figure and just says "4 times the output of a standard beam rifle"... which raises the question of what they even benchmarked it against. That could be anywhere from ~8 megawatts to over 22 depending on what they compared it to.

The logistical inefficiency of the beam magnum is just atrocious though. This thing is burning through enough e-packs to arm an entire platoon of mobile suits every time it sorties.
Firstly, sorry for the confusion, mahq listed it as 2.6MW, I guess multitasking at work isn't a good idea.
E08 wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:38 am
According to the manual of the HG Revive AEUG ver., it should be 7 shots at normal output and 3 shots at max output.
Secondly, if that is the case, assuming 2.6MW as the normal output rate, at max output it will have something around 6MW, and still around 18MW if the whole thing spent on one shot.
I guess I just can't accept 2.6MW as the max output since the whole pack will be just at around 7.8MW.




However, if we use the 2MW ballpark estimate, 4 times is around 8MW, so close enough?
For GM III, we get 2.8MW, Nu at 3.8MW, so if we consider inefficiency, 18MW-loss is also reasonably acceptable as 4 times the power? I guess?

I am too lazy to pull out the sources with the output numbers, since the EB MS Encyclopaedia is under a bunch of things AND the box design is so bad that I have to pull out at least 4 out of the 14/15 books to repack it back.

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