Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Wingnut » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:16 pm

Clark and Ming on next Dancing with the Stars. That is all.
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Ok, not really, but that was a highlight along with not-Talbot and May mirror match.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Dark Duel » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:23 pm

Destiny_Gundam wrote:I've been really impressed with Iain De Caestecker this season. Some one give that kid an Emmy.
I'm not even going to attempt to pronounce that name. He's Scottish, isn't he?
But yeah, I totally agree that he's been utterly amazing. I mean they all are, but him in particular.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:25 am

I liked this week's episode, but I'll admit I'm more excited for next week's episode,

WARD'S COUNTERATTACK. (it would probably be better named "comeback," but I couldn't resist :D)

Or at least the beginning of his return, anyway.

So I hear that Bobbi is Mockingbird and Skye's father, as well as Skyeherself, have actual comic identities. (my Marvel comic knowledge isn't what it used to be) I knew I recognzed Bobbi's name from somewhere in Marvel, though wasn't she Hawkeye's ex-wife in the comics? And there was some drama on that in an Ultron arc, fittingly enough.
And who are Skye and her father supposed to be?

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:52 pm

Mockingbird was announced some time ago. I don't know their current status, but she's been Hawkeye's wife since she joined the Avengers.

And the current theory is that Skye is Daisy Johnson and her father is Mister Hyde. I don't really believe that since their origins have been heavily hinted as being extraterrestrial.

Don't forget that next week they'll be showing the first trailer for Age of Ultron.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:51 pm

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Don't forget that next week they'll be showing the first trailer for Age of Ultron.
I tried to add that to my post, but the forum gave me an error for a while.

I love how the preview's "Ward is evil" mood makes it so obvious that he won't be evil at all, just like the preview of Simmon's "betrayal." :D

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:26 am

Speaking of that preview.... it got leaked online so Marvel just said "screw it" and released the trailer in GLORIOUS 1080p.

Ultron is going to be the best evil computer/robot since HAL9000 and GLaDOS. :3
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:17 am

I love Marvel's reaction to the leak: "Dammit, Hydra."

Personally I'd rather Ultron be an unfeeling machine, but we'll see how this goes.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Dark Duel » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:15 am

HOLY CRAP, HULKBUSTER!!
Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch both look pretty awesome, and Ultron looks like he could be the most totally badass comic book movie villain in the history of comic book movies.
(Note: Still reserving judgement on En Sabah Nur until we see more, but that's a different movie)
DISCLAIMER: I know absolutely zilch about this storyline in the comics.
But I can't wait.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:06 pm

Redemption for Ward?
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Nope.avi.
Well at least one thing I think we can say is true,
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he wasn't lying about the well. We saw memories of that incident thanks to the Berserker Staff. Not even Ward is good enough to lie about his own memories.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:27 am

This last episode had to be my leasy favorite of all so far. Not because it was badly done (well, there's one thing I have an issue with), but because a few of my favorite characters are starting to be serious douchebags.

First off, Phil. Seriously, Phil?! You got totally played by Ward's sadistic brother and tried to hand Ward over to him for what would have undoubtedly been his execution? The fact he got completely suckered by the senator is as terrifying as it is disappointing. I really thought Phil was better than that, but apparently he really is just using Ward as his Hydra punching bag. Because unless Marvel retcons Ward's past revealed in the berserker staff episode, Senator Ward is the bad guy and he just played Phil like a violin. Phil does show a little regret in his decision, but it doesn't matter much if he doesn't act on it. I'm waiting quite impatiently for the day when this pie finally hits Phil in the face.

Skye has been on a serious Ward bash ever since his he was found out in season 1. Yes he fought for the bad guys, yes he killed good agents, and yes he tried to kill Simmons and Fitz. But "he likes killing"? He's a douchebag? Since when??? He's never shown a liking for killing let alone in front of the team, and he's never railed on them or been a plain jerk to them like his brother was on TV at the beginning of the episode. I don't expect her to be all friendly with him, but calling him crap that she knows he isn't? And then he spills his guts about her parents and she just cooly says "I've got all I need from him" as he's about to be shipped out and executed?

Just the way the team has been treating Ward strikes the wrong notes for me. Enemy agent yes. A guy who has killed, yes. But I'm a fair and even guy; I don't like it when either the good guys or the bad guys get labeled crap they aren't. It's just that it rarely happens for the bad guys, because they're, well, bad. But Ward is no Garret, and god knows he's no Whitefall. Heck, he was never even actally Hydra at all. There's a difference between a villain and a guy who works for the bad guys, the same as there's a difference between a killer and a person who kills. He did what he did because of his debt and loyalty to Garret, not because he wanted to be bad like Garret and Whitefall. If Garret had become the Pope, guess where Ward would be.
My issue with the episode is Ward: the story about the SHIELD agents who found Skye really being Hydra agents and his escape at the end of the episode. After everything we've seen that show Ward isn't actually a villain, I will be severely disappointed if Marvel just suddenly starts to villify him now by having him lie about the Hydra agents to try and trick Skye into letting him out, or if he goes around killing people to stay free. Hopefully they didn't suddenly have Ward BS-ing out of nowhere and it's all true, and that last shot was intentionally deceiving and he didn't actually kill anybody in his escape. I certainly don't see him joining the bad guys either, barring any retconning of the laundry list of hesitation he's had as a bad guy. In fact, I had some theories between the seasons about him escaping and either helping out SHIELD, or even just Skye, from the shadows, or at least getting the chance to show he's not evil while he's out by doing something good. I thought that theory was kaput when he turned up in SHIELD's basement, but it looks like it may just happen after all.
Actually, Senator Ward fooling Coulson into handing him over may be the trigger for Ward's return. Not only did it give him the chance to escape and redeem himself, but what's he going to do, prove his brother right?

On a good note, it looks like Talbot is finally seeing the light. He actually realizes that the assassins weren't SHIELD on his own, and he definitely showed plenty of good at the end of the episode.

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Redemption for Ward?
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Nope.avi.
Comments on this above.

Let's also look at it another way: in Person of Interest, we had two similar characters to Ward's situation, Lionel and Root. Lionel was a corrupt cop who admitted himself that he'd killed people for his corrupt buddies. Root was a sociopathic murderer and assassin who framed innocent people for her assassinations and then killed them. But nevermind Lionel's rise to justice, if Root can grow a conscience and regret the murders she's committed and become a good guy, even called a friend by Finch, Ward can bring his conscience back to full light and be accepted back. (though undoubtedly not easily)

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by phillosmaster » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:36 pm

Ah... Ward murdered Agent Hand and Agent Koenig. It wasn't a straight up battle. He executed both of them. Both directly worked with Phil's team so I can't imagine that would be forgiven easily (granted I hated Agent Hand but that's a different matter). He sentenced Fitz and Simmons to death by dropping them into the ocean. They narrowly escaped with their lives because or Fitz's quick thinking and self sacrifice, but there is no way Ward knew that was going to happen. Just because he couldn't put a bullet into their heads doesn't make it any less of a murder attempt. He was going to turn Sky over to Garrett. All the while still pretending everything was business as usual.

In the end does Ward regret what he did? I think it's clear the show is telling us yes he didn't like that he had to betray Phil's team. Did he betray Phil's team? Yes he did? Did he murder Agents who thought he was a friend? Yes he did. Should they ever trust him again? No they should not. At no point did he act on his regret. Only now is he saying these things after they've caged him and given him no other options.

Ward is a spy just like many characters in the show. They are trained to lie and manipulate. It's impossible to trust anything he says. All they can go on is what they know and they know he is not loyal to their team. He may not be Hydra, but who knows what other party holds his loyalty. They'd be going on his word that he was only loyal to Garrett, and as he's shown in the past his word isn't worth anything. I'd assume everything he's saying is a load of crap if I were them.

Phil's actions make sense. Ward isn't a person to him anymore. He's a resource. He kept him around for intel and now he saw a way to use him for a better gain. Makes sense to me. He doesn't care if Ward lives or dies at this point.

Now what I don't understand is why Phil would trust Hunter. I would have cut that guy loose. Given what we know now I'm guessing that has more to do with Bobbi, and her recommendation. Also that his betrayal was out of loyalty to Hartley, which in the end means he's still loyal to their agents. Still I don't think Phil should be taking these types of chances.

It's really awesome that Bobbi is on the show. I hope she stays around.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:27 pm

phillosmaster wrote:Ah... Ward murdered Agent Hand and Agent Koenig. It wasn't a straight up battle. He executed both of them. Both directly worked with Phil's team so I can't imagine that would be forgiven easily (granted I hated Agent Hand but that's a different matter). He sentenced Fitz and Simmons to death by dropping them into the ocean. They narrowly escaped with their lives because or Fitz's quick thinking and self sacrifice, but there is no way Ward knew that was going to happen. Just because he couldn't put a bullet into their heads doesn't make it any less of a murder attempt. He was going to turn Sky over to Garrett. All the while still pretending everything was business as usual.
Who said anything about a battle anywhere? I see what you're trying to say, but it doesn't change anythying. I'm not seeing anything new here.
In the end does Ward regret what he did? I think it's clear the show is telling us yes he didn't like that he had to betray Phil's team. Did he betray Phil's team? Yes he did? Did he murder Agents who thought he was a friend? Yes he did. Should they ever trust him again? No they should not. At no point did he act on his regret. Only now is he saying these things after they've caged him and given him no other options.
He's given them nothing but good intel, and simply being locked up isn't as big a motivator to talk as you seem to think. Otherwise criminals, terrorists, and all the like would be spilling their guts just for being capured.
As I've said myself though, Ward making his way back to SHIELD won't be that easy. But it's onlly the beginning of the season.
Ward is a spy just like many characters in the show. They are trained to lie and manipulate. It's impossible to trust anything he says. All they can go on is what they know and they know he is not loyal to their team. He may not be Hydra, but who knows what other party holds his loyalty. They'd be going on his word that he was only loyal to Garrett, and as he's shown in the past his word isn't worth anything. I'd assume everything he's saying is a load of crap if I were them.
Which is exactly why I've been saying from the beginning that he'll be showing them he can be trusted over the season. Nobody said anything about them trusting him cold turkey, nor that it would be easy. As I just said in my previous post, I theorized between seasons that hed escape, which would give him the chance to show SHIELD he's not a villain. I doubt he'll even intend for it to happen at first.
He's actually shown many times this season that his word is worth something now, and the team knows his loyalty was to Garret and not Hydra. I think you're overplaying Ward's dishonesty by quite a large margin.
Phil's actions make sense. Ward isn't a person to him anymore. He's a resource. He kept him around for intel and now he saw a way to use him for a better gain. Makes sense to me. He doesn't care if Ward lives or dies at this point.
Phil got played like a fool by a sadistic liar, which will undoubtedly bite him in the @$$ later.
And seeing people, good guys or not, as resources to be used and discarded like objects is exactly not the way Phil thinks. To him, that's what the bad guys do. Remember how hard he tried not to kill "Scorch" back in season 1? The guy was a homicidal maniac who had just killed another agent in front of him. Phil only killed him as a last resort. And Phil looking at Ward's SHIELD file as he was contemplating what he was doing says you're wrong about him not caring.
Now what I don't understand is why Phil would trust Hunter. I would have cut that guy loose. Given what we know now I'm guessing that has more to do with Bobbi, and her recommendation. Also that his betrayal was out of loyalty to Hartley, which in the end means he's still loyal to their agents. Still I don't think Phil should be taking these types of chances.
Which shows your thinking is different from Phil's.

The bottom line is, there's no way Ward will go back to being a bad guy, which means the only thing Marvel can do with him is make him a good guy for real. Neutral's not an option for him at this point; SHIELD will be hunting him down when they find out he's escaped, so his only options will be to join the good guys or the bad guys, and as I said it won't be the latter. That would be stupid, repetitive, and not fit his character whatsoever. As soon as Garret died, he had absolutely no reason to be a bad guy anymore. The bare minimum they could do is make him a recurring good guy character for season 3 and on who appears every now and then to help like they'll probably do with Mike Peterson, but Ward is part of the main cast, not a recurring caracter. The fact that Ward escaped so early in the season is also a good indicator they'll bring him back to the good guys probably near the end of the season. As I said he's not going to join Hydra, so the only thing they can do with him is restore his good guy-ness, unless you think Marvel is going to do absolutely nothing with Ward for 18 or so more episodes.
If Root from Person of Interest can be forgiven for all the murders of innocent people she's commited over the years, Ward can be forgiven. At least he cared about what he was doing, and he certainly wasn't doing it for money which is exactly what Root was doing before she caught on to Finch's machine.
Plus it wouldn't even be the first time Joss Whedon made a bad guy into a good guy. He did it with Spike in Buffy/Angel. A vampire who had killed two vampire slayers, along with god knows how many innocent people, and Whedon gave him a crush on Buffy, gave him a soul, and then joined him up with the good guys. And there's no way Ward has done worse than Spike.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by phillosmaster » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:21 pm

That first part was to illustrate that Ward doesn't deserve sympathy. Ward making his way back into SHIELD should be impossible right now IMO. Yeah I agree I don't think like Phil, but I don't think I'm overplaying Ward's betrayal. I like the character, but I don't think he deserves a second chance. I love what they are doing with Ward(and I love the direction the series is taking) but seriously Ward is a douchebag. When the chips are up for Ward he never acted on his regret and helped his friends on Phil's team. Now the chips are way down and he's trying to be friends. Too bad buddy. Sucks to be you. They are right to question his sincerity and voice their disgust with him. Just because he gave good intel doesn't mean anything other than he's not loyal to Hyrda. Great. That doesn't mean they should trust him or like him.

What I'm getting at is there needs to be something else narratively to make Ward Phil's man again. Didn't they put a microchip or something in Spike first. Then he got his Soul back. Then he was killed and came back as a ghost so ... that guy went through quite a bit to earn his White Hat. I'm expecting something as dramatic for Ward. Ward can't just have a change of heart. It's probably the thread in the second season I'm most interested in right now. Where are they going with Ward. I certainly didn't expect them to take Mike Peterson in the direction they did so they've done a good job taking characters in interesting directions.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:29 pm

phillosmaster wrote:That first part was to illustrate that Ward doesn't deserve sympathy.
I know what you meant.
Ward making his way back into SHIELD should be impossible right now IMO. Yeah I agree I don't think like Phil, but I don't think I'm overplaying Ward's betrayal. I like the character, but I don't think he deserves a second chance. I love what they are doing with Ward(and I love the direction the series is taking) but seriously Ward is a douchebag. When the chips are up for Ward he never acted on his regret and helped his friends on Phil's team. Now the chips are way down and he's trying to be friends. Too bad buddy. Sucks to be you. They are right to question his sincerity and voice their disgust with him. Just because he gave good intel doesn't mean anything other than he's not loyal to Hyrda. Great. That doesn't mean they should trust him or like him.
I know it's impossible right now. I never said right now, I said over the course of the season.
Douchebag means @$$hole, which is not what Ward is. He's never been annoying, obnoxious, or in any way a jerk.
Well, the direction the series is taking him is getting back to the team, or at the very least proving he's still a good guy. As I said turning him into a real bad guy would be completely contradictory to his character, and he's not going to remain neutral, so the only side left is the good side.
You're too stuck on right now, when it's pretty clear that he'll be proving his good side again in the future, which is what I'm talking about.
What I'm getting at is there needs to be something else narratively to make Ward Phil's man again. Didn't they put a microchip or something in Spike first. Then he got his Soul back. Then he was killed and came back as a ghost so ... that guy went through quite a bit to earn his White Hat. I'm expecting something as dramatic for Ward. Ward can't just have a change of heart. It's probably the thread in the second season I'm most interested in right now. Where are they going with Ward. I certainly didn't expect them to take Mike Peterson in the direction they did so they've done a good job taking characters in interesting directions.
Microchip or not, it wasn't a chip that made Spike want to get a soul. Therefore Ward doesn't need a chip to do good things again, and now that he's escaped just as I theorized before season 2 started, he has that opportunity. And who says Ward isn't going to go through hell go get his white hat back? That's what I'm saying: it's not going to be a process as simple as "Ward saves person A on the street and gets accepted backe." He'll undoubteddly play a large role in the fight against Hydra, and after lots of big things he'll finally earn his spot back. I'm all the more sure of it because it would utterly idiotic and just bad writing to have him join the bad guys for real. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he joined Hydra in order to work against them. He certainly has a more convincing resume than Simmons did, and it's all true.
Just have a change of heart? There's no heart-changing required. Ward wasn't even a true villain in the first place. The whole reason he was working for a bad guy was because he wanted to help him in thanks for saving him from a life of hell, even if that wasn't really Garret's intention. And throughout season 1, Ward repeatedly did things to help and save people that had ridiculously unproportionate risk/reward ratios for his role as a spy, like jumping out of a plane to save Simmons who was about to "blow" so to speak, which would have killed him too. There's no way it would have endangered his mission if he'd just let her die. Heck, Ward even chose not to kill Mike back in the very first episode when he knew that his people had sent a guy to kill him. Phil wouldn't have been happy with it at all, but he wouldn't have bashed Ward for killing Mike to supposedly save thousands of lives.
Mike Peterson didn't have a choice, they had his son and a bomb in his head to force him to comply. There's nothing keeping Ward on the bad guy side anymore, and he has plenty of reasons not to join them.

Bottom line, Ward can only be a good guy or a bad guy, and unless they suddenly make Ward a true murderous psychopath out of nowhere and completely retcon all of his regrets and hesitations we saw in season 1, he won't be a bad guy.
Sure Phil and co. could hate on him forever and ever. But the only thing making Phil and the others hate Ward (and as this last episode showed with the personel file, he doesn't completely hate him) is hate itself, and when Ward shows he can return to the light Phil will learn to let go of that hate, as will the others. There was never any "Evil Ward," and the Ward that did bad things died with Garret. He was the only reason Ward ever did any of those things. Once Ward starts doing good again, it'll be time for them to realize that hating him doesn't do anybody any good anymore.
Yes, yes, I know it's gooey, idealistic, goody-two-shoes stuff. But that's what Marvel and DC superhero shows are about in the first place, good people doing good things becaus they want to do good. Love, justice, peace, and even forgiveness. (though I doubt it will be true, complete forgiveness for Ward, just "there's no point in locking you up forever if you're going to do good from now on") Phil has shown time and again that this is what he's all about. He's always made an effort to save people, even when they're homicidal, raging maniacs like Scorch, who killed his people right in front of him. They only killed him because they couldn't get him to stop any other way.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by phillosmaster » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:05 pm

Ward had sex with May and then betrayed her. Ward used Skye's crush on him as a tool when he was going to hand her over to Garrett. As Ward said to Garrett when he saved Simmons he was wearing a chute. There was no danger. It's really hard to figure out what in the first season was genuine with Ward and what was done to win over the trust of Phil's team so he could be a better mole for Garrett.

Evil and Good are subjective terms. Maybe working in terms more concrete would help. Altruism for one. Phil's mission is one born out of altruism. He puts himself and his team in danger to make the world a safer place for those who can't defend themselves. That at least helps us link Phil and his team with the "Good Guys". He may do questionable things, but it's always in service of that mission.

Ward doesn't strike me as a altruistic person. He was a loyal person, which is admirable. Unfortunately he was loyal first to a clearly selfish man. Garrett's goal was to strengthen his own power and influence. Ward had a choice late season 1. He could align with Phil and by extension be an altruistic person or align with Garrett and selfishly hold true to his personal loyalties. He chose to put himself before others and stuck with Garrett. Does that make him evil. I don't know. It certainly doesn't make him a good guy, and nothing he's done in season 2 changes that.

Your assertion that because Garret is gone now Ward has no motivation to be evil anymore is not one with which I can agree. I still feel like all his actions originate from a selfish motivation. If he's going to make a jump from selfish man to altruistic man we have yet to see the evidence. I guess that's the kernel of my argument, and where we differ in our opinions on the character :)

I'm talking about now in the story because you seemed to suggest that Phil and his team are unjustifiied in their treatment of Ward. I'd argument everything they done and they are doing to Ward is completely justified. Where he goes from here is yet to be seen.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:31 pm

Shinji, you seem to be forgetting all the scenes from season 1 where Ward is clearly enjoying being evil. You also got him bragging about how he tricked the team to Raina, and when he told Skye "maybe I'll just take what I want, wake something up inside of you." Sure he's been helpful in season 2 but as was mentioned that's because they have him trapped. He could easily be trying to get them to let their guards down so he could get them to let him out.

Did you not see his eyes at the end of the episode? Those aren't the eyes of a man seeking redemption. Maybe he'll seek revenge on Coulson and company for handing him over to his brother. Maybe he'll join the Doctor since they both want Skye.

You're underestimating just how devastating a personal betrayal can be. Ward wasn't some villain who saw the light, he's a guy that became friends with everyone then stabbed them in the back. Rebuilding trust is a hell of a lot harder than gaining it in the first place.

Also, you're wrong about Coulson being tricked by Christian. Coulson knew Christian's game plan the whole time, but it didn't matter. In the long run it was better to get Christian to cooperate via mutual trade rather than blackmail. Shield is no longer being hunted and all it cost them was the scumbag in their basement. Good trade.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:19 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Shinji, you seem to be forgetting all the scenes from season 1 where Ward is clearly enjoying being evil.
No, but I think you're overdoing the "enjoying being evil" bit. He enjoyed working with Garret because he liked Garret and owed him his life, not the killing. That doesn't excuse him (you guys seem to think I'm trying to sweep his crimes under the rug), but it's different from "enjoying being evil." That conflicts with all the hesitations and regrets he showed after they took the sandbox, and that episode was the only time he showed enjoyment.
You also got him bragging about how he tricked the team to Raina, and when he told Skye "maybe I'll just take what I want, wake something up inside of you." Sure he's been helpful in season 2 but as was mentioned that's because they have him trapped. He could easily be trying to get them to let their guards down so he could get them to let him out.
Ward said that at the time, but when he actually faced the people he tricked he wasn't nearly as cheery. If he'd bragged like that to their faces, then I'd be worried. If he actually enjoyed it, why would he regret it at all?
If this has been his idea of trying to fool them into letting him out, then he never would have succeeded as a spy in the first place. It was obvious to him that they'd never let him out of his cell, and if he was really trying he would have tried to exploit when they were stopping his suicide attempts. And he knows that if by some mircale he got out, there are several of the team who could take him down. And if he wanted to get out, why didn't he try to confuse Fitz into opening the cell when he was already clearly confused?
Did you not see his eyes at the end of the episode? Those aren't the eyes of a man seeking redemption. Maybe he'll seek revenge on Coulson and company for handing him over to his brother. Maybe he'll join the Doctor since they both want Skye.
I'm sorry, but I can't take this revenge comment seriously, not at all. That would completely contradict everything we've seen of him since he was revealed to be a spy. He's made it clear that he's never had bad feelings for the team. As for his eyes, those were much like the eyes he had after he killed Hand and her agents. You know, before he started having all those hesitations and regrets. He may have still done them, but it doesn't seem like they're as "killer eyes" as you seem to think.
But if Marvel really does send him down the revenge path, my faith in this series will have been thoroughly shot down. That would completely contradict the absence of ill feelings he's had towards the team so far. The doctor is teamed up with Hydra now, and Ward has made it clear ever since his being Garret's spy was revealed that he didn't want anything to do with Hydra. He even asked Garret about breaking off from them.
Also, I never said he'd be looking for redemption. One way or another, he's going to continue to be caught up in the struggle between SHIELD and Hydra, whether he likes it or not. But he has no reason to be a bad guy and he doesn't want to be one. So that only leaves one side, whether he seeks that side or not.
On the other hand, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he joins Hydra to be a saboteur, leaking info to SHIELD and stopping whatever operations he can, trying to do something good with what's left of his life. He certainly has the resume for the job. (I say saboteur instead of mole because SHIELD wouldn't trust him hat easily, so he'd pretty much be on his own)
You're underestimating just how devastating a personal betrayal can be. Ward wasn't some villain who saw the light, he's a guy that became friends with everyone then stabbed them in the back. Rebuilding trust is a hell of a lot harder than gaining it in the first place.
I'm not underestiating it at all. In fact, there have been a lot of shows, both US and anime, where I've thought that it was stupid that the good guys trusted the bad guy/traitor so easily.
And I've made it a point several times to say myself that it won't be easy. Everybody keeps saying that I', expecting Ward to just fall back in with SHIELD like nohing happened even though I specifically say myself that it can't and won't be that easy.
Also, you're wrong about Coulson being tricked by Christian. Coulson knew Christian's game plan the whole time, but it didn't matter. In the long run it was better to get Christian to cooperate via mutual trade rather than blackmail. Shield is no longer being hunted and all it cost them was the scumbag in their basement. Good trade.
Honestly.......that would be a lot worse. That's a huge compromise of integrity, and it actually makes Coulson a douchebag if it turns out you're right. He's always been about saving people; he and Fury said it's the very foundation that SHIELD was built on. "Everyone's worth saving." This is the guy who tried to save a rampaging killer in the middle of a dire situation, and only killed him as a last resort. This doesn't mean letting every bad gu they caught out of jail, but it certainly means they don't use people as objects to be handed over for execution as part of a deal with a monster. If you're right, Coulson as good as executed a human life as a bargaining chip, an object. That's even colder than what Ward did to Hand and her team. At least they weren't unarmed captives. I honestly have a hard time liking people who think of any human life like that. He gave a monster what he wanted so his supposedly good guy agency could get a break. That's corrupt to the core. Call me naive if you want, but I have no faith in things like that. This isn't a series about good people sinking into the dark, corrupt world.
And before you say I'm being idealistic, yes I am. Because that's what this is supposed to be. SHIELD may be having a hard time right now, but making deals with monsters to further his agency is not "doing it right" like Fury told him to. Didn't Coulson just burn a promising spy op into Hydra rather than cooperating with Raina by letting her have Skye? By the cold calculating logic you're using, he should have let Raina have Skye so he could carry out the greater good. After all, it's one person in exchange for getting eyes on a major bad guy organization, right? (if you can't tell, that's sarcasm in that last line)
So if you're right, I'm going to love it all the more when he realizes the incredibly mistake he just made. A nice, solid pie in the face. Because the thing is, when you get in bed with a bad guy their dirt tends to get on you. Coulson is an idiot if he doesn't realize this after all his years with SHIELD. I'm probably asking for too much with this, but I hope Christian treats Coulson to his "I'll make you rorture someone else" bit that he tormented Ward with. It'll be delicious to see how Coulson regrets this utter failure.

And of course, I still say that if a sociopathic assassin/murder like Root can grow a conscience and join the good guys, or a blood-drinking killer like Spike can get a place with the good guys, Ward can too. And while Finch and the others may have been (too) easily forgiving of Root, Angel hated Spike. In fact, they hated each other. It didn't stop them from having that heartfelt talk about what the things they'd done when Spike was in a bed recovering from his encounter with the psycho slayer.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:06 pm

Shinji103 wrote:Ward said that at the time, but when he actually faced the people he tricked he wasn't nearly as cheery. If he'd bragged like that to their faces, then I'd be worried. If he actually enjoyed it, why would he regret it at all?
You forget his comments to Maria. Also, watch his fight against May again, he's having fun taunting her when he has the upper hand... Until she nails him, then he wants to talk things over.

He only showed hesitation when it came to Fitz and Simmons. He did like them enough to not kill them directly, but he still tried to kill them none-the-less. He could have easily given them parachutes and a raft, had them jump, and then report that he took care of them. Ward might have been taking orders from Garret, but it was Ward who freely chose to follow those orders.
Shinji103 wrote:Didn't Coulson just burn a promising spy op into Hydra rather than cooperating with Raina by letting her have Skye? By the cold calculating logic you're using, he should have let Raina have Skye so he could carry out the greater good. After all, it's one person in exchange for getting eyes on a major bad guy organization, right?
Entirely different situations. Coulson wasn't going to let Skye go off to who knows where to do who knows what, especially when he had Bobbi around to save Simmons. The thing with Ward was a simple prisoner transfer. Shield custody to US Goverment custody. It's not like Christian was going to pull out a gun and shoot Grant on the spot. They said he was going to be put on trial for his crimes and potentially get the death penalty for it. The punishment would sure as hell fit the crime.

Coulson did try to save Ward, but like Scorch Ward didn't let him. I forget the exact number, but I think Phil said it was every day for 3 weeks that he'd sit with Ward but Ward wouldn't say a damn thing.

We know Christian was a terror as a child but honestly we don't know if he out grew his cruelty or not. Sure, he doesn't want his dirty laundry aired, he's good at manipulation and he does have an agenda, but that just makes him a politician, not a monster (or are those the same thing?).

At the very least it doesn't appear that Christian has ties to Hydra.
"In the end, the world doesn't really need a Superman... Just a brave one."

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:19 pm

Well, so much for Ward joining Hydra for revenge. I'm pretty sure they won't take kindly to his giftwrapping one of their higher-ups for SHIELD.
And to top it off, Ward is still telling the truth. He's holding to his deal to get the guy face-to-face with Coulson. :D
At this point, we pretty much know what Ward's plan is: to kill his brother. Considering what kind of monster Christian is, I can't say I'm not looking forward to when Ward catches up to him. SHIELD will undoubtedly try to stop him, so they'll finally get to see what kind of person their bedmate is really like when Ward corners him.

So we now know that the alien we saw in T.A.H.I.T.I. is ancient, and now we know that the GH sickness was about finding some city. Now again, my Marvel knowledge is woefully out of date, so if this city has some kind of comic history, I don't know about it.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by xaos » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:47 pm

Shinji103 wrote: So we now know that the alien we saw in T.A.H.I.T.I. is ancient, and now we know that the GH sickness was about finding some city. Now again, my Marvel knowledge is woefully out of date, so if this city has some kind of comic history, I don't know about it.
Just a guess but I'm starting to believe the city is a nod to Attilan. The city the Inhumans are supposed to live. Since the Inhumans are humans that are supposed be experimented on by the Kree in ancient times. The alien looking like it could be a Kree and having been there since I believe they said "before the pyramids" has me believing that theory.

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