Magical Girls

[Henyo]

anyone here into the genre? i'd like to meet other fans! i'm the only one in my circle of friends who specializes in this genre.
right now i'm into the Pretty Cure Series. I've watched it all, from the TV series up to the All Stars Crossover movies. going along with this are some old ones from the 90s:
Hime-chan no Ribbon and Floral Magican Mary Bell.

[Raikoh]

I've been getting into magical girls ever since I saw Nanoha (which I started getting into because Subaru really piqued my interest). Currently I'm still relatively low-level (haven't seen all of Sailor Moon or Sakura, and only seen one Precure along with a grab bag of various less known series) but I really enjoyed the stuff I have seen. I like how they focus a lot on having strong characterization and interactions between the characters.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I like magical girl shows well enough. Used to watch Sailor Moon and Cardcaptors back in the day, though that was before I knew what anime was.

I'm a big Nanoha fan though I gotta say so far as the most badass magical girl show goes I gotta give it to Symphogear hands down.

[Kratos]

I haven't seen a whole lot - really just Madoka, and Sailor Moon when I was younger. I enjoyed Madoka a lot, but probably would have gotten more out of it if I were more familiar with the genre as a whole.

[Henyo]

i've seen a lot myself. from all the eras actually. several channels here in my country aired quite a bit starting from the 70s up to the early 2000s. notable of which is Hana no ko Lunlun, Mahou Shoujo Lalabell and Sally 80s version. before PreCure, my most favorite Magical girl was Magic Knight Rayearth. i lucked out again because they also aired the OVA.(also, the TV series got two different dubs. the first one has name changes.)

as for sailor moon, one channel aired all five seasons.

[Ryujin]

i've seen a lot myself. from all the eras actually. several channels here in my country aired quite a bit starting from the 70s up to the early 2000s. notable of which is Hana no ko Lunlun

Haha, Ron-Ron the Flower Girl stuck in endless 1-cour re-run hell on IBC-13. It was years before I finally got to see the conclusion (as well as that of Remi), thanks to the US military.

Those random cuts when Rayearth first aired locally was annoying. Alcyone too lewd for Sunday morning TV.

[Henyo]

i've seen a lot myself. from all the eras actually. several channels here in my country aired quite a bit starting from the 70s up to the early 2000s. notable of which is Hana no ko Lunlun

Haha, Ron-Ron the Flower Girl stuck in endless 1-cour re-run hell on IBC-13. It was years before I finally got to see the conclusion (as well as that of Remi), thanks to the US military.

Those random cuts when Rayearth first aired locally was annoying. Alcyone too lewd for Sunday morning TV.

those are details i do not recall anymore. but they are amusing nonetheless.(MKR aired on sundays? my mind says it was weekdays.)
here's a new side to think about:

Is Ryuko of Kill la Kill a Magical Girl or not?

and what do you think about the increase of yuri in Magical Girl animes? it reached over 9000 levels thanks to Madoka Rebellion.

[Raikoh]

Kill la Kill is arguably magical girl, just like Symphogear (which I consider to be more of a Super Robot series).

Spoiler

But that doesn't change the fact that KLK sucks.

And yuri under or overtones have been a thing in the genre pretty much forever. The codifiers of magical girls (Sailor Moon and CCS) had canonically gay characters and they made no attempts to hide that (well, at least in Japan). This is because the writers weren't just trying to make their story, they were trying to strengthen moral values in the modern world. I've heard that Takeuchi wanted to make a point that all love is equal when writing Sailor Moon; and I know for a fact that CCS is basically one of the most saccharine settings you could ever hope for, and one that definitely would be a great "role model." It's more important in Japan, I think, since they aren't exactly as progressive as the West.

These days, though, the yuri is done for a different reason... Otaku pandering. I think it has nothing to do with Madoka, because as stated above, it's been around forever. I think it started to really become more universal in the early to mid 2000s, which was when the "otaku pandering" started to gain steam as a viable model. Digressions aside, let's think about it: out of all the blatant yuribait, be it Nanofate or Hibimiku or everything in Vividred Operation, they never make it explicit that characters are romantically involved (well, Nanofate was confirmed in an interview with Tamura and Nana). It leaves a [miniscule] gray area for the waifu type to keep their "pure" woman. Because until they kiss, or say "I love you" or do something else that unequivocally makes the pairing canon, there's always going to be the nay-sayer who argues, with at least some degree of justification, "No, no, these two women who share a bed, raise a child together, and have been together for 10+ years are just really good friends."

[Vent Noir]

Big fan of magical girls, ever since I first got into Sailor Moon. Enjoying the Pretty Cure series at the moment (although IMHO Heartcatch is the pinnacle there), and looking forward to the Nanoha Vivid TV series and third Nanoha movie.

[Destiny_Gundam]

These days, though, the yuri is done for a different reason... Otaku pandering. I think it has nothing to do with Madoka, because as stated above, it's been around forever. I think it started to really become more universal in the early to mid 2000s, which was when the "otaku pandering" started to gain steam as a viable model. Digressions aside, let's think about it: out of all the blatant yuribait, be it Nanofate or Hibimiku or everything in Vividred Operation, they never make it explicit that characters are romantically involved (well, Nanofate was confirmed in an interview with Tamura and Nana). It leaves a [miniscule] gray area for the waifu type to keep their "pure" woman. Because until they kiss, or say "I love you" or do something else that unequivocally makes the pairing canon, there's always going to be the nay-sayer who argues, with at least some degree of justification, "No, no, these two women who share a bed, raise a child together, and have been together for 10+ years are just really good friends."

I think you have that backwards. Those shows are meant for the 'waifu types' in the first place, but because they unintentionally drew in a yuri crowd they decided to keep things ambiguous in order to keep that audience. That certainly is the case with Nanoha, at least, which was based on a (straight) hentai game to begin with. And man is that interview old. People are still treating that as the gospel truth? It's clear the voice actresses were joking, and Tsuzuki was just making a comparison.

In my experience it's been that people have their yuri goggles on far too tightly. There used to be a time when two girls could be openly emotional with each other, take baths together, share a bed, etc, and not be seen as lesbians. Those things are all well within the realm of things friends do together. So yes, if you want to confirm those things you need to have a clear declaration of romantic love. This goes for pairings of any orientation. Heck, these days even having sex is within the realm of certain friendships.

And us "nay-sayers" (thanks for not calling us homophobic furfag trolls btw) have more than just 'some' degree of justification. In the first place, it's not that "Nanoha and Fate are raising Vivio," it's "Nanoha is raising Vivio and Fate is helping." Nanoha was made the mother, and Fate claimed the title of godmother. A post-StrikerS sound stage has Nanoha confirming that Fate stepped back and is more like an older sister figure to Vivio. Vivio still calls her mama, obviously, but she admits in Vivid that she forgets why she does and continues out of habit. In a later chapter (that has yet to be released in english), Hayate discusses Vivio's upbringing and only ever mentions Nanoha. Also, the Nanoha/Vivio family unit is always treated separately from the Fate/Erio/Caro family unit. If Nanoha and Fate were an item, those units would be one and the same.

I could go on, but that'd take awhile. The point is there's plenty of evidence to support both sides of the equation. So whatever interpretation you want to use, go for it. Just don't turn into a jackass if some one doesn't agree. I know all too well how horrible NanoFate extremists can get.

[Raikoh]

Just a quick digression:

Spoiler

Destiny, if you want official confirmation that Nanofate is canon at this point, there's plenty (if you can't trust primary sources like official artwork, who can ya trust?). That isn't even coming from yurigoggles, since I prefer things like VicexTeana over Subaru.

But the subject of yuri being a thing in magical girls is very much substantiated by the modern industry. People didn't have a problem arguing that Usagi and Rei weren't an item, or even Sakura and Tomoyo, because the author didn't feel the need to build in chemistry for the two of them - and this is probably partially because earlier magical girl series often went out of their way to include love interests since, hey, young girls eat that up, and love interests are more often than not of the opposite sex. Heck, in Nanoha they originally intended to make Yuuno the love interest, but the writers and other staff realized that just didn't work since Nanoha had so much more chemistry with Fate (Strikers Sound Stage is rumored to have been made by Yuunoha supporters - or at least Nanofate haters, and Vivid was written by the original author who promptly retconned that). But why would they go to such extremes to keep it on the edge? Because the modern magical girl in many ways is designed for this.

Perhaps it would be better to say that the yuri comes from a side effect of many contemporary magical girl series being aimed more towards the periphery demographic (that is to say, adult men). Series like Symphogear, Nanoha, Cutey Honey, Prisma Illya, and more are specifically aimed at the 20+ year old male audience. What do adult male otaku like? Women. So much so that the most merchandise being moved will be of the female characters almost universally. So in an attempt to cash in on that, male characters tend to get shafted (except in Symphogear where Genjuro, Ver, and arguably Ogawa are just as fun to watch as the main cast) in favor of female characters. Even in shonen series, the male to female ratio is starting to get skewed drastically to the female side (because harem and crap). This is just a thing with otaku, but it unintentionally creates more subtext, especially when their only male love interest is completely bland and unspectacular (like is the case with many harem series, what with the audience needing to project and all), it's only natural that people would want to pair up the interesting characters who have chemistry regardless of gender. One more thing: guess what women share with each other more often than they do with men? Screentime. It's one of those little subtle sort of sexist things that goes both way in media, that for some reason men and women aren't allowed to just hang out and be friends like they are with people of the same gender, so the women end up getting more close relationships with other women even when there are more than enough men around. End result is simple. Women + Intimacy - Men = Yuri... Wait, did my thesis that the overabundance of yuri in modern magical girls is due to otaku pandering just gain a second prong? The "unintentionally building chemistry between women while removing male love interests" prong, I'd say?

[Destiny_Gundam]

Strikers Sound Stage is rumored to have been made by Yuunoha supporters - or at least Nanofate haters, and Vivid was written by the original author who promptly retconned that.

Pffft. See, this is the kind of stuff those extremists would make up in order to explain away stuff they don't like. Tsuzuki writes everything in the franchise (outside of Vivid's adaptation, apparently), so that's all on him. Even if he didn't I'm sure he had to give his okay. I could list off a bunch of stuff from Vivid alone (and I did say a few already) that suggests they don't have the sort of relationship a lot of people think they do.

And no, I don't put much stock in magazine artwork. Unless you're trying to tell me they got married when they were 9 as that 2nd image suggests. But that would contradict the official StrikerS relationship chart where Nanoha and Fate (and Hayate) are listed as best friends!

Anyways, you're more or less correct in regards to why these shows attract yuri shippers. However that doesn't mean the creators meant for it to be that way. Usually it's meant for them to be just close friends until the fans run away with it.

[Ryujin]

(although IMHO Heartcatch is the pinnacle there)

Truth.

I have to admit that I've been taking a liking to HaCha though, due to a bunch of things like following through on international Cures, OISHI GOHAN, LOVELY PUNCHING PUNCH and strongly foreshadowing that

Spoiler

Phantom is literally Mirage's pet dog (which, considering his behavior, really makes a lot of sense).

Too bad we won't be getting any more Umakoshi fight scenes, Gospel EDs, Cure MOOOOONLAITO or a midriff to rival Sunshine's.

[Henyo]

GOD! MY OH! heavy stuff there. haven't read something like this in a long while. that was(in best Kintaro Oe the Golden Boy impersonation) Very Educational.

as for me, i go by the philosophy: enjoy something for what it is. not for something it will never be.
if they make NanoFate official then i'd be very happy. if they don't then i'll still think of them as wife and wife, read fanfics about just that. everyone's got their preferences. if they don't like yours then leave then be.(was poised to quote someof Castevania Alucard's last words to his father in the real ending of SOTN. XD)

@Vent noir: yeah, HC is the best in the series. but my personal favorite is the oft underated Splash Star. how much? i've watched it two times now. halfway through my third viewing. Saki and mai are number one in my PreCure Yuri couples.

[zerogradius]

CCS and Corrector Yui were the only magical anime I ever thought were good. That is until I saw Madoka Magica. It blows both of those shows out of the water.

[Destiny_Gundam]

Honestly Madoka isn't as good as everyone says it is. It's still pretty good but too overly reliant on characters holding the idiot ball for the sake of having a bunch of plot twists. It relies too much on shock value to trick the audience into believing it's better than it really is.

[Henyo]

Honestly Madoka isn't as good as everyone says it is. It's still pretty good but too overly reliant on characters holding the idiot ball for the sake of having a bunch of plot twists. It relies too much on shock value to trick the audience into believing it's better than it really is.

and because of that, they forget that Utena had done similar things to the genre twenty years ago.
speaking of doing something for the genre try watching Umi Monogatari guys!(and for an incentive, it's director is the same as the ARIA series.)

[Zeonista]

The first magical girl show I ever watched was Dream Hunter Rem, which didn't do a whole lot for me. It had a following among the older guys in my anime club, but 19-20 year old me wasn't interested at the time. I was aware of the original BSSM (any anime fan at the time was ) and watched some of it, but I wasn't a fan. Rayearth was good since it was just as much a fantasy adventure as a magical girl show, but Card Captor Sakura went back to being unappealing. (The appalling dub version didn't help either.) That being said, the new BSSM anime is good, I liked what I saw of Nanoha, and a friend has gotten me to watch some Wedding Peach, which is a lot of fun. Nanajou's magical girl was one of its most appealing characters, the poor thing.

[gunform1010]

I'm only into Sailor Moon. Could use a few more series.

[Henyo]

I'm only into Sailor Moon. Could use a few more series.

then allow me to share from my persnal fave list.(from 2000s and backwards of course.)

TV Series
Magic Knight Rayearth - has mechas in it. and if you're familiar with him, Oobari Masami worked on some Season 2 episodes.
Kaitou Saint Tail - a magical girl without actual magic powers. as wikipedia states "Robin Hood meets sailor moon"
Revolutionary Girl Utena - the first Evangelion equivalent of the Magical Girl Genre.(the second needs no mentioning unless you've been living in a far off land.)
Kannazuki no Miko - another one with Mechas. this one is 100% yuri unlike the others.

OVAS

Hyper Speed Gran Doll - the girl gets an armor instead of a frilly dress. also, she had two other forms.
Shamanic Princess - one of the darker MG during the 90s. word of advice if you do give this one a shot. watch it in this order: 4,5,6,1,2,3. yep. that's the chronological order.