Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

toysdream wrote:...Unless, of course, we take literally the claim in MS Igloo that the Luna II fleet has been stuck there since the beginning of the war. Oliver's comment in the narration translates as follows:
With this information, the Federation fleet that had been blockaded/confined at Luna II since the outbreak of the war also finally decided on a decisive battle, mustered its full strength, and set out.
Blockaded or confined? As it turns out, the MS Igloo 603 manga and the animation use slightly different phrasing here. In the manga, they use the verb 閉塞していた, which is literally "blockaded". This implies that Zeon did somehow pin down the Luna II fleet, just as Tomino's novels suggest, and it was only with the fake news of a second colony drop that the Luna II fleet broke the blockade and rushed across the Earth Sphere to join the fighting. The anime version says 逼塞していた, which is a bit looser, like "contained" or "confined". In historical times this was a type of house arrest applied to misbehaving monks and samurai, but as far as I can tell from Google, when it's used in a military context it generally does mean blockaded, bottled up, or pinned down.
There is a significant difference between the words blockaded and confined. The first term suggests a Zeon force that intends to prevent entry or exit from Luna 2 by all EFSF ships. The second term suggests a Zeon force that is harassing shipping and patrols around Luna 2 and impeding communications, but lacks the strength to do more. Oliver's account implies the Zeon force that attacks Luna 2 is intent on confinement, and they promptly departed for home upon confirmation of Tianem Fleet's launch, warning Dozzle Fleet along the way.
But either way, wherever the fleet came from that intercepted the colony drop, it couldn't have come from Luna II as claimed by EB 39. If the initial Zeon assault took out the patrol fleets around Earth - also as per EB 39, so that claim is equally suspect - then the Federation could have tried to stop the drop by launching ships directly from Earth, as Gundam The Origin has it doing prior to Loum.
I am also skeptical of EB 39's claims, if only because the idea of the ZMF having the strength to fight a battle to destroy the Earth orbital fleets ahead of Operation British and Loum. Who knew the Principality had such strength in arms! :) I would say that the "taking out" of the Earth-based patrol fleets involved attacks on their picket and patrol ships, and the destruction of the communication relay and recon satellites. (Events of Operation British & Loum suggest the EFSF lacks long-range intelligence-gathering and communication capability.) The Earth-based fleets and possible reinforcement from Jaburo would be sufficient to oppose Operation British. Subsequently though, there is need as well as desire for a decisive battle to protect earth, and so Tianem gets his orders.
This is also good news for partisans of The Origin's "Tianem at Loum" theory. If Tianem has been stuck at Luna II since the beginning of the war, then he couldn't have been involved in Operation British, and has probably been spoiling for a fight. Breaking through the blockade, or a confinement imposed by whichever side, and then zooming across the Earth Sphere at full speed to defend Side 5 would be a nice dramatic role for everyone's second-favorite Federation bigwig.
It does tidy things up, doesn't it? Tianem at Luna 2 gets wrong-footed by the surprise declaration of war & follow-up attack. A Zeon squadron appears and makes a nuisance of itself by ambushing his pickets and any lone ships of any type in the area while slinging missiles at his surface communications & sensor arrays. However, by the time news of Operation British & theo orders to launch arrive, he has the Luna 2 fleet ready to go. The fleet issues out from Luna 2, and the Zeon squadron "blockading" them vanishes behind a screen of Minovsky particles.
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

toysdream wrote:...Unless, of course, we take literally the claim in MS Igloo that the Luna II fleet has been stuck there since the beginning of the war. Oliver's comment in the narration translates as follows:
With this information, the Federation fleet that had been blockaded/confined at Luna II since the outbreak of the war also finally decided on a decisive battle, mustered its full strength, and set out.
Blockaded or confined? As it turns out, the MS Igloo 603 manga and the animation use slightly different phrasing here. In the manga, they use the verb 閉塞していた, which is literally "blockaded". This implies that Zeon did somehow pin down the Luna II fleet, just as Tomino's novels suggest, and it was only with the fake news of a second colony drop that the Luna II fleet broke the blockade and rushed across the Earth Sphere to join the fighting. The anime version says 逼塞していた, which is a bit looser, like "contained" or "confined". In historical times this was a type of house arrest applied to misbehaving monks and samurai, but as far as I can tell from Google, when it's used in a military context it generally does mean blockaded, bottled up, or pinned down.
There is a significant difference between the words blockaded and confined. The first term suggests a Zeon force that intends to prevent entry or exit from Luna 2 by all EFSF ships. The second term suggests a Zeon force that is harassing shipping and patrols around Luna 2 and impeding communications, but lacks the strength to do more. Oliver's account implies the Zeon force that attacks Luna 2 is intent on confinement, and they promptly departed for home upon confirmation of Tianem Fleet's launch, warning Dozzle Fleet along the way.
But either way, wherever the fleet came from that intercepted the colony drop, it couldn't have come from Luna II as claimed by EB 39. If the initial Zeon assault took out the patrol fleets around Earth - also as per EB 39, so that claim is equally suspect - then the Federation could have tried to stop the drop by launching ships directly from Earth, as Gundam The Origin has it doing prior to Loum.
I am also skeptical of EB 39's claims, if only because the idea of the ZMF having the strength to fight a battle to destroy the Earth orbital fleets ahead of Operation British and Loum. Who knew the Principality had such strength in arms! :) I would say that the "taking out" of the Earth-based patrol fleets involved attacks on their picket and patrol ships, and the destruction of the communication relay and recon satellites. (Events of Operation British & Loum suggest the EFSF lacks long-range intelligence-gathering and communication capability.) The Earth-based fleets and possible reinforcement from Jaburo would be sufficient to oppose Operation British. Subsequently though, there is need as well as desire for a decisive battle to protect earth, and so Tianem gets his orders.
This is also good news for partisans of The Origin's "Tianem at Loum" theory. If Tianem has been stuck at Luna II since the beginning of the war, then he couldn't have been involved in Operation British, and has probably been spoiling for a fight. Breaking through the blockade, or a confinement imposed by whichever side, and then zooming across the Earth Sphere at full speed to defend Side 5 would be a nice dramatic role for everyone's second-favorite Federation bigwig.
[/quote]
It does tidy things up, doesn't it? Tianem at Luna 2 gets wrong-footed by the surprise declaration of war & follow-up attack, like the rest of the EFSF. A Zeon squadron appears and makes a nuisance of itself by ambushing his pickets and any lone ships of any type in the area while slinging missiles at his surface communications & sensor arrays. The first week passes by quickly, while the fleet prepares for battle and Tianem's staff wonder what the blazes is going on at Jaburo. However, by the time news of Operation British & the orders to launch arrive, he has the Luna 2 fleet ready to go. The fleet issues out from Luna 2, and the Zeon squadron "blockading" them vanishes behind a screen of Minovsky particles.Tianem dismisses requests for a pursuit, he has bigger fish to fry, and if it means that Dozzle appears sooner than later, so much the better!
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

You mean the Luna 2 Fleet need one whole week to mobilize? Everything seems rational except the one week part.
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

It takes a while to get things ready for a combat tour on a modern warship, even including one that is officially available for action. There is a long checklist for all the departments, the fuel tanks need to be topped off, all consumable/expendable supplies and munitions have to be filled out, Mullet has to be released from the brig onshore, all those little sorts of things. And if any checklist items fails to meet spec, it has to be brought up to spec RIGHT NOW or the brown stuff is going to hit the fan! Only after all departments have reported "ready" and orders have been delivered can the ship's commanding officer give the order to make steam, raise anchor, and depart from port. Now, multiply that by dozens or hundreds of ships, and 2-3 days can pass by quickly! I expect things to go no differently in the EFSF, or ZMF for that matter.

Also, don't forget that the surprise declaration of war caught the EFSF unprepared, as was intended! The Luna 2 Fleet couldn't be in a perpetual state of readiness for a war that they didn't know was coming. Given the events as mentioned in the timeline, and some additional problems added by the "blockade" squadron lurking nearby, it could be argued that a 2-3 day interval to achieve combat readiness was a success! Then there would be the delay for orders to arrive so Tianem could then send his readied fleet after a target. So what seems to the casual observer to be an entire wasted week at Luna 2 could just be the normal expected gear-up time to deploy the battle fleet from a stand-still.
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

Just remember, though, the MS Igloo narration doesn't say that the Luna II fleet spent a week packing; it says it was "blockaded" or "confined", and as best I can tell, in military contexts even the latter Japanese term indicates you're held in place by enemy action.

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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

How could the principality "blockaded" Luna 2? Seriously with them listed as "smaller" than the EF, they ought to use a good portion of their fleet just to attack all those various places before Loum. How could even just before Loum, they could still put an adequate portion of their fleet to blockade Luna 2?

Given Luna 2 fleet being not ready for war and half-cocooned for action. Just how much forces are garrisoned in Luna 2 anyway? And logically speaking, just how much resources needed to keep them away from sailing forth from the asteroid base? Do they use Zaku as shock troops to keep them at bay or what? If adequate forces are used, why don't just destroy the base outright with the base having such low level of readiness anyway. The Principality got gasses and nuke on their hands.
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

toysdream wrote:Just remember, though, the MS Igloo narration doesn't say that the Luna II fleet spent a week packing; it says it was "blockaded" or "confined", and as best I can tell, in military contexts even the latter Japanese term indicates you're held in place by enemy action.

-- Mark
Of course! I was just explaining that readying a fleet for action isn't an immediate response. It's one reason Tianem doesn't immediately head out the front door after the Principality declares war and attacks the Sides.There are two other reasons as well; orders to take the fleet after a target, and the efforts of the ZMF to prevent him leaving. Which brings up the question of the so-called blockade or confinement again. Now, in classical maritime navy blockading strategy, the blockade's continuing ability to pin an enemy force in port and control access to said port depends a large part on the capability, and more importantly the willpower, of the blockaded forces in the port to do something about it.

If the blockading force is larger or more powerful than the blockaded force, this makes breaking out problematic. In this case, we could say "confined" to describe the blockaded force. This would be characteristic of the American Revolutionary War in 1780-81, the War of 1812 for 1813-14, and the entire American Civil War. However, there have been times when numerically inferior squadrons have kept superior forces penned in port for months, even years, without challenge. The Royal Navy achieved this against the French Navy ports during the French Revolution and Napoleonic wars, and against the High Seas Fleet in World War I. In this case the "confinement" of the blockaded force can break the blockade or at least nullify it for a while by exiting the port ready for action. The question is, whether or not the blockaded force is willing to seek battle with an enemy fleet after leaving port, for that is what will happen as soon as the blockading squadron reports the news!

This brings us around to what the ZMF squadron arriving at Luna 2 at the beginning of the war could do to Luna 2 to prevent Tianem from sending enough ships out to chase them away, and also keep Luna 2 from exiting or coordinating efforts with other EFSF elements for 5 days or so..
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

I wouldn't stay wedded to that "squadron" characterization, either. Zeon's Mobile Assault Force currently doesn't have a whole lot to do at the start of the war, aside from annexing Granada and making some kind of diversionary attack on Side 5. Harassing Luna II might be a good use of the rest of its fighting strength.

As far as what Zeon could do to pin down the Luna II forces, remember that Tomino's novels say that Zeon bombarded the surface of the asteroid with missiles at the start of the war. There's not much else you could do to destroy it, though; nukes won't do much to a big chunk of rock in space. But thanks to the effects of the Minovsky particle, it would be fairly easy for the Zeon forces to hang around Luna II and pick off scouts and patrol ships one by one - we see them using this kind of ambush tactic pretty constantly throughout First Gundam, for example when Char's Zanzibar is bushwhacking Federation squadrons before Operation Star One.

In the end, as Zeonista suggests, this would come down to a matter of will for the Federation Forces. In order to get past the lurking Zeons, they'd need to commit to sending a big enough force that the enemy wouldn't dare attack it. Perhaps that's why, in the MS Igloo narration, we're told that the Luna II fleet has "finally decided" to set out and do battle.

This whole business of a Luna II blockade seems a bit unusual, and there's not a lot of support for it in the Japanese sources...

...except, of course, for Tomino's novels (which were the basis for all this back story in the first place) and MS Igloo (which, for all its flaws, is the only "official" depiction). So that's not nothing!

-- Mark
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

toysdream wrote:I wouldn't stay wedded to that "squadron" characterization, either. Zeon's Mobile Assault Force currently doesn't have a whole lot to do at the start of the war, aside from annexing Granada and making some kind of diversionary attack on Side 5. Harassing Luna II might be a good use of the rest of its fighting strength.
The meaning of the word "squadron" may also be at odds here too. In wet-navy parlance, a "squadron" is a unit of ships (usually 3-6) of more or less the same type. The ZMF navy seems to have a basic squadron of 3 Musais based on the animation. A ZMF navy force of 2 Musai squadrons and a Chivvay flagship could make a nuisance of itself at Luna 2 by hammering the surface installations and disrupting patrols and normal space traffic. But it would pose no real threat to the big rock itself or the fleet inside it.
As far as what Zeon could do to pin down the Luna II forces, remember that Tomino's novels say that Zeon bombarded the surface of the asteroid with missiles at the start of the war. There's not much else you could do to destroy it, though; nukes won't do much to a big chunk of rock in space. But thanks to the effects of the Minovsky particle, it would be fairly easy for the Zeon forces to hang around Luna II and pick off scouts and patrol ships one by one - we see them using this kind of ambush tactic pretty constantly throughout First Gundam, for example when Char's Zanzibar is bushwhacking Federation squadrons before Operation Star One.
This pretty much goes along with my past ideas presented on this thread. The ZMF confinement force is present to disrupt Tianem's communications and restrict his other venues for information gathering. They can't do a thing to the fleet to affect its battle readiness, but they can keep him in the dark long enough for the Sides to be overrun and let Operation British run its course. Whether or not Tianem's subsequent cruise to Loum is the obvious course of action from the EFF's POV, or he's being set up by the ZMF due to intel lag, is something else again. At any rate, the confinement force seems to have done its job.
In the end, as Zeonista suggests, this would come down to a matter of will for the Federation Forces. In order to get past the lurking Zeons, they'd need to commit to sending a big enough force that the enemy wouldn't dare attack it. Perhaps that's why, in the MS Igloo narration, we're told that the Luna II fleet has "finally decided" to set out and do battle.
In 1805 the British blockading forces did not hinder the united Franco-Spanish fleet from exiting the Mediterranean ports and forming a battle force. They watched the event (form a safe distance) and reported the news to Nelson, who took the main British Fleet after them. As a blockade force, their duty was to cut off France's naval commerce and prevent small-unit sorties. A fleet of many ships-of-the-line and frigates was beyond their ability to handle, nor were they expected to handle it.

In 1914 the High Seas Fleet of Germany was being closely blockaded in its North Sea ports by Royal Navy cruiser and destroyer squadrons. These blockaders were expected to close down the German merchant marine and keep the smaller German naval ships in port. If Hipper's battle cruiser force or Scheer's main battle fleet sallied forth to give battle, they were to back off and radio the news to Royal Navy command, who would then deploy Beatty's battle cruiser force, or even the Grand fleet at Scapa Flow to intercept. The Germans sent some light cruisers and supporting destroyers to attack the British blockade force off the Heligoland Bight to drive them away, and possibly allow the battle cruiers to sortie unreported. They were unsuccessful, and were beaten back with loss. The British only broke off the action when a German battle cruiser began to approach. The High Seas fleet did not sortie battle cruisers until the following year of 1915, and Jutland was a year later.

This is why I emphasized the will of the blockaded or confined force to do something about it. If Tianem "finally decided" (or more aptly was "finally ordered") to go forth and fight the ZMF, he was more than ready to do so. And judging from the anime, the ZMF was more than ready for him to do so.
This whole business of a Luna II blockade seems a bit unusual, and there's not a lot of support for it in the Japanese sources...
...except, of course, for Tomino's novels (which were the basis for all this back story in the first place) and MS Igloo (which, for all its flaws, is the only "official" depiction). So that's not nothing!-- Mark
That pretty much makes MS Igloo a good source, doesn't it? It runs off Tomino's story for inspiration, instead of having to re-invent the wheel. The Igloo version of the battle also matches the later battles in the original anime. Big plans, big numbers of ships, but then the battle starts and events drastically change everyone's expectations. The squadron leaders and the ship captains (not to mention the MS pilots naturally) then win the battle on their own account, while the admirals sweat it out over the reports and decide which parts of the big fight are decisive. The Igloo account also doesn't get lost in the original important outcome lesson of the battle, unlike most of the print accounts. The charge of the MS reserves wins the battle for Zeon, and many of the young Zaku pilots involved become names the EFF will learn to dread. On the other hand, the EFSF fleets can't adjust to the double threat of ships and MS and get trashed.
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

Restarting this thread with a question: What were the 5 ships Char sank at Loum? 5 Magellans, 3 Magellans and 2 Salamis, 3 Salamis and 2 Magellans, or 5 Salamis?
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

I'd interpreted it to be five battleships (i.e. Magellans), although 戦艦 could be interpreted as either "battleship" or a more generic "warship". The Origin shows him destroying a mix of Magellan and Salamis types.

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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

An omake from 08th Platoon covered Char Aznable's feat of arms at Loum. I can't reference it right now, as my subbed VHS tapes are in storage, and the US DVD release didn't have the omakes. It emphasized his agile attack tactics, bounding from ship to ship at sharp angles of attack, with all five ships depicted being Salamis-class ships. (IIRC he destroyed the fifth one with his heat hawk, having expended his ranged munitions on the previous four!) Even if the ships were "only" Sallies, it would still be the numerical equivalent of an EFSF squadron, destroyed by a single man! Hence the "Newtype" ballyhoo, and why the presence of "the Red Comet" is something to be dreaded.
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

FWIW, episode 1 of IGLOO shows him destroying a Salamis and a Magellan in the 20-odd seconds we see of him in combat.

Of course, he just shoots up the bridge of the Salamis and it then explodes from the middle of its hull, so maybe he didn't get credit for landing the critical hit on that one, but did for five Magellans he actually did. :lol:
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

mcred23 wrote:FWIW, episode 1 of IGLOO shows him destroying a Salamis and a Magellan in the 20-odd seconds we see of him in combat.

Of course, he just shoots up the bridge of the Salamis and it then explodes from the middle of its hull, so maybe he didn't get credit for landing the critical hit on that one, but did for five Magellans he actually did. :lol:
Always go to the source, people. :) The Salamis class cruiser has a notorious hidden design flaw wherein hits that destroy the bridge start a chain link of explosions that eviscerate the ship. One hopes they corrected that flaw at some stage. :D
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

toysdream wrote:
I'd interpreted it to be five battleships (i.e. Magellans), although 戦艦 could be interpreted as either "battleship" or a more generic "warship". The Origin shows him destroying a mix of Magellan and Salamis types.

-- Mark
Thanks Mark, but what about the 6 ships Matsunaga and the 3 ships Ridden sank?

Aside from those 3, and the Black Tri-Stars, who else do we know and love in Zeon that were there in Loum?
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

Zeonista wrote:
An omake from 08th Platoon covered Char Aznable's feat of arms at Loum. I can't reference it right now, as my subbed VHS tapes are in storage, and the US DVD release didn't have the omakes. It emphasized his agile attack tactics, bounding from ship to ship at sharp angles of attack, with all five ships depicted being Salamis-class ships. (IIRC he destroyed the fifth one with his heat hawk, having expended his ranged munitions on the previous four!) Even if the ships were "only" Sallies, it would still be the numerical equivalent of an EFSF squadron, destroyed by a single man! Hence the "Newtype" ballyhoo, and why the presence of "the Red Comet" is something to be dreaded.
From what I saw again, they're not Salamis, they're Magellans, why? Salamis don't have two front top turrets.
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

doghunter1 wrote:
Zeonista wrote:
An omake from 08th Platoon covered Char Aznable's feat of arms at Loum. I can't reference it right now, as my subbed VHS tapes are in storage, and the US DVD release didn't have the omakes. It emphasized his agile attack tactics, bounding from ship to ship at sharp angles of attack, with all five ships depicted being Salamis-class ships. (IIRC he destroyed the fifth one with his heat hawk, having expended his ranged munitions on the previous four!) Even if the ships were "only" Sallies, it would still be the numerical equivalent of an EFSF squadron, destroyed by a single man! Hence the "Newtype" ballyhoo, and why the presence of "the Red Comet" is something to be dreaded.
Also, from what I'm seeing (again), they're not Salamis, they're Magellans, why? Salamis don't have two front top turrets.
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

Ferrus_Manus wrote:
Posting torrents is a violation of the forum rules.
Alright, I'll get rid of it.

EDIT: Link eliminated.
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

Ferrus_Manus wrote:
doghunter1 wrote:
Zeonista wrote:
An omake from 08th Platoon covered Char Aznable's feat of arms at Loum. I can't reference it right now, as my subbed VHS tapes are in storage, and the US DVD release didn't have the omakes. It emphasized his agile attack tactics, bounding from ship to ship at sharp angles of attack, with all five ships depicted being Salamis-class ships. (IIRC he destroyed the fifth one with his heat hawk, having expended his ranged munitions on the previous four!) Even if the ships were "only" Sallies, it would still be the numerical equivalent of an EFSF squadron, destroyed by a single man! Hence the "Newtype" ballyhoo, and why the presence of "the Red Comet" is something to be dreaded.
No need to count on tapes, because you can torrent them here:

Also, from what I'm seeing (again), they're not Salamis, they're Magellans, why? Salamis don't have two front top turrets.
Posting torrents is a violation of the forum rules.
...But it's TOTALLY OKAY to quote someone else who posted the link, amiright?
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Re: Making Sense of the Battle of Loum

>:| no posting or discussing torrent links, guys.
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