Not trying to derail the thread, honest! Just a momentary interlude, and then I’ll be right back with Gundam:
I sort of know what you mean about ADV. It can really be hit or miss, and/or YMMV. Gasaraki's dub, for instance, is adequate, but not outstanding, and definitely not as good as RahXephon’s (despite sharing a lot of the same cast). Gasaraki’s dub is not one that instantly clicks, and while it's grown on me for the most part, there are still some parts that are hard to listen to. (I have to say I'm glad a series like that has a dub, though). As I understand it, part of ADV's issues early on had to do with them doing non-industry-standard dubbing techniques. (Like going into lines without the three "timing" beeps).Quiddity wrote:I will admit that I'm not a fan of the ADV dubs at all. Could never get in with them. Started with, incidentally enough, Evangelion, but have seen plenty of other mecha anime released/dubbed by ADV including RahXephon, Gasaraki and Dunbine and never particularly liked them. And this is coming from someone who usually enjoys dubs a lot. I absolutely hated Asuka's voice in Eva. Although I'll also admit that I absolutely hate the Asuka character.
I had the same reaction the first time watching Eureka 7, and you're kind of right. In essence, it could have been a shorter series. However, now that I'm more patient and was able to enjoy it more for what it was trying to do with all those extra episodes, I largely liked the extra world building and character development. But, yes, it could have been shorter (and newcomers to it should not expect its pacing to be brisk and concise by any means). However, if it was shorter and faster, it may have lost some of its unique charm. This is one of those series that is really about the journey as much as anything. Oh, and its dub is outstanding. But yes, I personally like RahXephon and The Big-O more, too.Quiddity wrote:Eureka 7 is a fairly strong show. I just finished a rewatch of it within the last month or so. I would say that both RahXephon and Big O are superior to it. The biggest complaint I have with Eureka 7 is that its a 50 episode show that they could have completed in a much shorter time. I think you could have cut it down to 39 episodes without the show suffering tremendously. I'm not one who denounces character development over plot (after all I do enjoy a lot shows like Escaflowne and RahXephon where mecha battles are sacrificed quite often for increased character development), but I think it swung too far in that direction with Eureka 7. In any case, the design of the show is terrific, fabulous world building, fairly strong music and an excellent English dub. Aside from it dragging out too much it is a quality show that is worth seeing. Have not seen the movie or AO.
That's more or less what I was saying. I'm not downplaying EVA, but I was never satisfied by EVA as a "series," whereas The Big-O and RahXephon clicked with me when all was said and done. (Though, I'll admit that The Big-O clicked a little faster than RahXephon; despite leaving a strong first and lasting impression, it took a second watching of RahXephon to get its structure and appreciate the nuances of its entire journey). With these Rebuild of EVA movies, and I’ve only seen the first two, it feels like they were trying to address some of EVA’s weaknesses by inserting tones and interactions closer to those of later shows like RahXephon and Fafner. The first Rebuild of EVA movie is probably the best take on EVA I’ve seen in terms of bringing out the series’ strengths.Quiddity wrote:I personally would say at its peak that Eva is better than RahXephon and Big O, but that isn't often. A huge portion of Eva is filler. I'd agree that if simply judging the shows as a whole from beginning to end in terms of level of quality they're both better. Eva wildly fluctuates from extremely frustrating episodes to absolute greatness.
The use of "Space Magic" becomes very strong in these latter parts. Given the length of 00 Season 2, I found it a tough transition. By the time we're into the Movie that follows Season 2, I was somehow a little more comfortable with it. I think it just has to do with how gritty and grounded the first season was, that the soul-to-soul Newtype-style stuff didn't seem to fit for me. Then again, the Quantum Brainwaves were present, and seemed all right throughout. But that seemed more developed scientifically in-world. Somehow the GN particles' expanding abilities, while fascinating in some ways, felt too rushed and exploited in the plot in Season 2 rather than gradually introduced in some other fashion that might have not made it so tonally different. Not that other series aren’t guilty of such things, but GN particles sort of became more and more used like a deus ex machine. (Speaking from my opinion and memory, mind you). Oh, and by this point, I was fed up with the Saji and Louise subplot, personally. The fact that Saji is sort of “along for the ride” more than anything wasn’t to my liking. If you’re going to bring him into CB here in Season 2 and he’s going to be working with Setsuna, why not have him get to be a little more hands on for the sake of trying to meet and save Louise, and thus deal with the consequences of all the things he was criticizing in Season 1. I mean, he sort of is, but it sort of feels like Haro is doing as much as or more than he is.Nikkolas wrote:1. Space Magic was in full effect for drama's sake with Saji and Louise. I was waiting and waiting to see how they'd eventually find out they were "on opposite sides"
but Inever saw that one coming. Bleh.
The Marina and the children's song part was another element that bugged me. Not because it was there so much as how it's apparently a mass catalyst toward changing minds and moving things toward peace at an accelerated rate. And then, having to still put up with Al-Saachez, who seems to be still in the story because I guess they weren't confident in developing their newer villains, is another problem for me. Aside from his lucky poison bullet trick (a rather shaky subplot in the long term), he's been pretty ineffectual in Season 2. I guess all of this shows Setsuna developing. But it seems strange/hokey to me that some of these elements, like a song, create such spontaneous and drastic development for Setsuna in the plot. He was developing subtly before just fine, but the plot’s number of episodes needs him to develop to a whole new level pretty fast.Nikkolas wrote:2. So Setsuna was about to finish off Ali and then he randomly could hear singing so he stopped? I kinda wish that had happened in MSG or SEED. Char doesn't blow off Kycilia's head or the Archangel doesn't kill Azrael because singing out of nowhere. (I'm just drwing analogies to other evil, evil people who should be killed without hesitation)
For one reason or another, planned or unplanned, they didn’t have a place for her or Al in the plot very much, and sort of sidelined them, which, as they were very interesting characters, is disappointing. It started back with that rushed island meeting and the montage, which was an element that didn’t necessarily have to happen so soon in the plot if it was going to totally kill the tension between them and their place in the plot for such a chunk of Season 2.Nikkolas wrote:3. So is Soma/Marie not going to be fighting ever again? I mean, I kinda get the point in an in-universe sort of way. She never had a choice in the matter and is a victim. She should be kept away from all the violence. But from the perspective of a viewer, it's disappointing.
Somewhere in the back of my mind, I assumed they meant it to be a play on Bring “Stability.” But people say that’s not the case, so who knows. Maybe it’s just to point out that he’s an enforcer. The best thing about this Innovator was how Tieria defeated him. That was a memorable moment.Nikkolas wrote:4. OH NO1 Not Bring Stabity! ...yeah that name is hilarious, even by Gundam standards. Someone really screwed up their English there. His name doesn't fit in with any of the others.
One of the best subplots in Season 2, which is resolved rather quickly to make a point about media control, I suppose. I thought Hercury might be a play on Hercules, but I think I was told that’s not the case, either. Anyway, he’s a great character. This is why I said they could have milked out a little more in terms of interesting scenarios from the Kingdom of Suille earlier on, and maybe that would have given Marina a place to flex her character development, since I think they had ties to her kingdom. The flashbacks to the old days with Hercury and Sergei’s wife are very nice, too. I’ve seen and have also been told I had misconceptions about what Season 2 was about, but for me, I would have liked them to play with ideas of larger resistances to A-LAWS like this. Katheron just doesn’t seem to carry enough weight in the plot compared to its presence, especially with Lyle being one of them. The elements are all there, but I felt we were getting a cliff’s notes version. But again, the reason these are quickly moved on from is because there is a certain development regarding GN particles that needs to be made, but I don’t think it had to be one or the other so much.Nikkolas wrote:5. I do approve of this coup d'etat though. Nobody in the Federation ever said "hold on a minute, these Titans are nuts. We should stop them." So the fact a group had enough sanity to do that in 00 is points to them. Seriously, this colonel guy is pretty cool. His name is...Pang Hercury? The 00 writers are just having a ball with these names aren't they?
As an aside, Mr. Bushido’s cameo fight with Trans-Am is amusing, but once again he’s sort of forced away without particularly doing anything.
The part with the falling debris of the tower is interesting and creative. It reminds me of the Break the World incident early in Destiny a little, except, it is given very little on-screen plot significance.
Momento Mori 1’s battle was a great episode; a Momento Mori 2’s sudden appearance and sudden defeat by the suddenly outrageously super-powered 00 Raiser is not very inspired.
There was a time jump after Momento Mori 1’s defeat, and there’s another one after Momento Mori 2. And thre was one somewhere with Anew and Lockon getting together. There is too much happening off screen that we’re supposed to care about later on.
I really did not like this scene. I forget if it was spoiled for me or not, but it struck me as so random in its final placement. I understand that was kind of the point, but it just felt too forced for me, personally. And yes, losing Sergei AND Hercury to get more focus on Andre was not a good trade-off. The Andre plot, despite what it has to say about “understanding,” is made too much of in terms of screen time. I don’t know that any of us really ever “care” for Andre. You know, that guy who was Louise’s superior, he was an A-LAW guy that I thought was better developed than Andre. There is just a lot of these here for one minute, gone the next character moments, even for semi-important ones, that irk me. It’s like, “hey, you’re here, I’m here, I don’t like you, and I’m going to knock you off with extra blind rage to create some tension.”Nikkolas wrote:6. Wow, way to go Andre. You already weren't likable and now you killed your very likable father because you're a dumbass. He's gonna go right down there with Nena Trinity in 00 Characters Who Burn For Eternity.
Yes. But it’s sort of annoying that Soma is now defined by that in the plot, and Al is trying to rein her in. I guess they were trying to play off the idea of Sergei’s “children” fighting for his memory.Nikkolas wrote:7. So Soma is back to fighting. If nothing else, Sergei's death did have a positive consequence.
I think my previous comments covered my thoughts on this one. And Klaus is the kind of character that seems like he could have been more than he is, but Katheron just wasn’t going to be that central in meaningful ways throughout, so he can’t do much.Nikkolas wrote:8. Ya know what my biggest complaint about this second season is? Inconsequential characters. There's so many damned people running around and barely any of them matter. How many Innovators are there and only Ribbons and that Tieria lookalike chick have been given anything resembling a personality. Well I guess there's Anew but whatever. I know i might be contradicting myself here a bit but I really like the character of Klaus, the resistance leader. I like him in part because he's so inconsequential. He stands no chance but he keeps fighting. Contrast with Marina who continues to be useless but doesn't even try to be of help to anyone. Seriously, if the writers of 00 were trying to "criticize" the message iN Wing or whatever they're doing a poor job of it because there was literally an entire episode in Wing dedicated to Relena having to come to terms with the fact that a defense force is necessary, even for a pacifist nation. Refusing to have any arms at all or to fight back when the Evil Empire is right next door is just stupidity, not idealism.
This is one of the elements they seem to stick on to show that Lyle was different than Neil. It does sadly come off as sticking in a UC-style doomed love element for the sake of helping certain audience members relate to the plot. That wasn’t a good sign for me. It sort of works in an artificial way, because you get this sudden injection of betrayal, action, emotions, and tragedy…but I wasn’t comfortable with it in the overall sense given that Lyle is supposed to be one of the main leads. Like Andre killing his father, it’s so sudden. Again, it feels like we meandered around with all these characters, not really getting a full feel or development for many of them, and then there’s a rush to get to the end, and so people come in and out, one way or another.Nikkolas wrote:10. Well Lockon's and Anew's relationship has to be the most Sudden and then Abruptly Ended romance in Gundam history. Bleh.
I think it connects with the cultural consciousness. As religion plays more into cultural and political history, Gundam probably feels the need to include it. It makes a lot of sense. And with 00, in particular, the director said he wanted to reflect the modern world’s conflicts for young people to discuss them.Nikkolas wrote:This is kind of a random thought that isn't a criticism of 00 or anything but has there been an increase in "religious stuff" in more modern Gundams? Like, 00 has a lot of mentions of God and stuff and wasn't there like a church and cross in one of the Unicorn episodes? Treize talks about God a few times too. Like I said, not really a critique but an observation since I don't remember much talk about God or religion or any of that back in 0079, Zeta or CCA.
It’s OK to like Anew! She was all right enough, but she deserved a more planned intro and exit. I apologize if I come off as too blunt or flippant with some of my reactions in this process. It all comes down to perspective, and we’re all allowed to like or dislike different things. Right there, the spy story you’re mentioning, I could see that totally working! It would give a lot more meaning to both characters and intrigue to the plot and involvement for Katheron and the idea of Innovators as observers. Too often, we see one-note combat-type Innovators, that it’s easy to forget they were developed to be observers of happenings in different places and such for Veda. I would have loved to see that more involved in the plot. Anew could have been the perfect one to do that with, too, since she wouldn’t have to be Tieria, who was always piloting for CB, or Ribbons, who just seemed like a servant for Alejandro. Those two were spying in a way, but we didn’t know about what Innovators were all about, and so their placement makes that secondary.HellCat wrote:Per some sources Anew and Lyle were originally supposed to be competing spies, working for Ribbons and Katharon respectively. However, apparently sponsors complained there wasn't a tragic adult romance for housewife viewers and told them to instead turn their interactions into a redo of the Lockon and Tieria stuff from late season one. But hey, I liked Anew
Spoiler
In the Movie, we see Innovators are still around in normal situations and in political places, so it makes you wonder how this could have played out earlier in Season 2.
Well, that’s all I’ve got for now. It's not all bad, and I don't mean to sound overly harsh. I'm just expressing my gut reactions from my own experience. Everyone's experiences are skewed in one way or another, though, so that's part of it.