Victory Gundam: Details on the War

[Crosswire40]

Hello! I’m new here on the forum, but I see this is a good place to ask questions. (If this is in the wrong section, I really apologize so please don't ban me or anything :C ).

Now I've been looking to set up a Victory Gundam RP, the problem I their isn't a whole lot of background information on what exactly the Zanscare wanted, what exactly the League Militaire is and what are the details of the war are (Where Zanscare Invaded, est, est).

Now I don’t know if this information exists. I love the series, but even I know Tomino went a little crazy. Even if the information doesn't exist, I’d like a little help sorting things out. Even if it’s not exactly what happened, I’m willing to accept any sensible interpretations.

I got plenty of questions but I'd like to hear what you guys think first.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Hmm, not sure where this goes either? Anime section? RP section?

Anyway as for Victory, The Zanscare outwardly professed to want to set up a new government that practically deified Maria Pia Armonia 'cause she had funky Newtype healing powers. But really Fonze Kagatie was just your typical space fascist and was using Maria to cover this up. The League was created because the Federation is SO inept by UC0153 that they can't barely do anything. As for where the Zanscare invaded on earth... I believe Kasserelia and the surrounding regions were all supposed to be in Europe.

[ShadowCell]

wow, i derped on this pretty hardcore

moved to Anime and Manga

[Crosswire40]

(Wow, I couldn't find my own topic for a little while. I was worried I’d gotten deleted or something :c. Sorry about not putting it in the proper place)

Yay! Some input, I appreciate it!

Alright, I can understand that. So the Zanscare Empire originally started out as a group wanting political autonomy from the Earth Federation before Fonze Kagatie hoped on board and began to turn the group radical? If I remember correctly wasn't Fonze from Jupiter? Maybe some link or relation to the Jupiter Empire would explain why he's so intent on destroying the Earth Federation.

Now this might be an instance of Tomino’s doing (again trying to sink the franchise and all). But what was wrong with the Zanscare Military? Again, making it clear I like the show but you got to admit they were really screwed up. I mean when they weren’t being plain weird they were genocidal maniacs. Maybe I’m viewing it the wrong way, what do you think? Is their some way to explain this or should I just write it off?

Also Just what was Marie’s level of involvement in this? She didn't seem like she had anything malicious intentions. Hell wasn't she being lied too half the time? I assume she was a puppet from the start, but just when did she realize “Wait a minute this isn’t right…” was it like that from the start or did she only catch on later?

[Wingnut]

. As for where the Zanscare invaded on earth... I believe Kasserelia and the surrounding regions were all supposed to be in Europe.

Yeah, IIRC Woowig is modern day Prague.

understand that. So the Zanscare Empire originally started out as a group wanting political autonomy from the Earth Federation before Fonze Kagatie hoped on board and began to turn the group radical? If I remember correctly wasn't Fonze from Jupiter? Maybe some link or relation to the Jupiter Empire would explain why he's so intent on destroying the Earth Federation.

That is the popular theory if not outright fact.

Also Just what was Marie’s level of involvement in this? She didn't seem like she had anything malicious intentions. Hell wasn't she being lied too half the time? I assume she was a puppet from the start, but just when did she realize “Wait a minute this isn’t right…” was it like that from the start or did she only catch on later?

Kinda. For all her newtype magic she sure was in the dark about a lot of things or simply turned a blind eye to them and believed that her own words could change people or something.

[Crosswire40]

Prague? Really? Huh O-o that’s pretty interesting. ~Jots down note~
Wow this is clearing a lot of things up! I really appreciate it everyone but I still got some questions:

What exactly is the League Militaire? I think I might have read somewhere it was established before the war started. But was it started by the Federation as a Londo Bell esque organization or is it more like the AEUG, a group made up of former civilians, soldiers and engineers?

Now what kind of shape is the Federation in? Obviously not a good one, I mean they’ve been losing power since F91 and the long periods of peace and the fact Anaheim Electrics has or is going down the drain didn’t help the economy. But are their military forces ineffective because their using outdated equipment, are soldiers poorly trained?, or are the command too stupid to tie their shoe laces?

Also, what is the development order of the League Militaries suits? Did the Gun EZ come before the Victory Gundam or after it? Was the Gun EZ developed off the Jamesgun, and then the Victory Gundam was developed off the Gun EZ or was the Victory Gundam Produced and the Gun EZ produced as a cut-cost version like the original GM?

Another thing that’s been bugging me is the lack of weapon diversity. Maybe it’s just the show, but ever since the F91 era physical weapons save for Vulcans haven’t popped up all that often. I assumed at first that it was a cost cutting measure, beam weapons were cheaper thanks to the enhanced reactors of the mobile suits, but in Victory Gundam the League Militarie had a Vulcan Cannon and I’m pretty sure it used physical rounds. So is there a wider range of weapons available for suits that we just don’t see in the show?

Pertaining to BESPA, I read somewhere the reason Zanscare didn’t have more advanced armor and weapons (Like the VESBR) was because a Federation Strike force attacked B.E.S.P.A’s headquarters and destroyed the facilities used to produce Gundarium and VESBRs, thus why they didn’t show up till the end of the war. Is there any truth to this?

One more thing, is S.N.R.I. still around? I might be wrong here, but didn’t SNRI get shut down or go bankrupt and the only reason B.E.S.P.A. stayed afloat was because of the funding from the Zanscare Government. Is this right or am I mixed up?

[TakaTahuNuva]

. As for where the Zanscare invaded on earth... I believe Kasserelia and the surrounding regions were all supposed to be in Europe.

Yeah, IIRC Woowig is modern day Prague.

Yep, one of the episodes has a map that shows that Woowig/Kasarelia corresponds exactly to Prague. Largaine is another location shown early on in the series and it corresponds to modern-day Munich.

[Crosswire40]

Good to hear. I'll note that down as well. Makes it easier to pin point some stuff. Now on to the other questions :A

[AndrewT]

The league militaire is basically an independent private military/organization formed to combat the Zanscare Empire and not much else if I recall. Whether they have ties to any of the MS manufacturers i'm not sure (though they had much more advanced MS prototypes than the Federation but i can't recall if they manufactured them or not...)

The Federation is still present and even fights alongside the League in some episodes once they realize the severity of the conflict. While they were not in their prime they still seemed to command a large force, and definitely influenced the outcome of the war. The league is more or less similar to the AEUG from what I deduced. At first I found them to be very small time and unorganized as the show makes it seem that way early on, but once they get to space and met Jim Gynningham (can't remember his exact name for the life of me) they seem to have a much greater infrastructure and military presence.

Mahq says the Gun Ez was made simultaneously...and I don't know if the Bespa tech was worse across the board. I definitely thought beam rotors were kind of silly and seemed like a step backwards, but many of the MS they show later (like what Fuala and Chronicle are using at the end of the series) seem pretty damn formidable.

[mcred23]

To answer some of those other questions...

What exactly is the League Militaire? I think I might have read somewhere it was established before the war started. But was it started by the Federation as a Londo Bell esque organization or is it more like the AEUG, a group made up of former civilians, soldiers and engineers?

The latter, the League Militaire is a civilian group founded to fight against what the Zanscares since the Federation wasn't doing too much about them. However, keep in mind that the League Militarie is very small compared to groups like the AEUG. At their peak, the AEUG had around 30 ships in space, not to mention Karaba running around on Earth, where as the League Militarie seems largely concentrated around the Reinforce Junior, Gaunland (Which isn't around all that long), and the lil' White Ark that barely counts as a ship.

Now what kind of shape is the Federation in? Obviously not a good one, I mean they’ve been losing power since F91 and the long periods of peace and the fact Anaheim Electrics has or is going down the drain didn’t help the economy. But are their military forces ineffective because their using outdated equipment, are soldiers poorly trained?, or are the command too stupid to tie their shoe laces?

The Federation in Victory is in an interesting position. Their political leaders clearly don't give much of a damn about what is going on, but their military does to the point that quite a few of them either help the League Militarie on occasion (Such as by giving them ships or whatnot) or even to the point of units disobeying orders and fighting the Zanscares (Such as the Bagley Team, and much later on, Mubarak Stern bringing in IIRC three whole fleets). Of course, they seem to have no problems letting the colonies or civilian groups fight each other to their hearts content, and Zanscare military is essentially based on the Federation Forces that had once been based at Side 2 (The BESPA thing), so clearly not all of their military is still loyal to the government or they've gone native or whatever, but enough still seem to support the Federation...

All that said, the EFF is using outdated equipment (The Javelin, their main space MS, being 30 years old, and their ships are even older), but based on what we see of Stern's forces late in the show, both their troops and equipment are in no way ineffective. Most of what we see of Federation troops in Victory (And prior to that, in F91) shows them to be pretty well motivated and trained, able to fight pretty well against enemies with far more modern equipment under less than ideal circumstances. In the big battle that spans the last few episodes of Victory, it's a predominantly Federation fleet (With one or two League Militarie ships) that goes head to head with the Zanscares, and both sides seem to pretty much wipe each other out, so it's not like the Zanscares with all their modern equipment just brushed them aside. In short, the Federation military is still a force to be reckoned with, but the political side of the Federation that controls them is a bad as it ever is...

Also, Anaheim Electronics is still around and kicking, but that's more related to another question you asked...

Also, what is the development order of the League Militaries suits? Did the Gun EZ come before the Victory Gundam or after it? Was the Gun EZ developed off the Jamesgun, and then the Victory Gundam was developed off the Gun EZ or was the Victory Gundam Produced and the Gun EZ produced as a cut-cost version like the original GM?

IIRC, the Victory comes first, followed by the Gun-EZ as its mass production version like the original GM.

Another thing that’s been bugging me is the lack of weapon diversity. Maybe it’s just the show, but ever since the F91 era physical weapons save for Vulcans haven’t popped up all that often. I assumed at first that it was a cost cutting measure, beam weapons were cheaper thanks to the enhanced reactors of the mobile suits, but in Victory Gundam the League Militarie had a Vulcan Cannon and I’m pretty sure it used physical rounds. So is there a wider range of weapons available for suits that we just don’t see in the show?

It's not a cost cutting measure so much as it is that beam weapons are far more powerful than conventional ones, which is why they've almost totally replaced them as the main weapons of MS.

One more thing, is S.N.R.I. still around? I might be wrong here, but didn’t SNRI get shut down or go bankrupt and the only reason B.E.S.P.A. stayed afloat was because of the funding from the Zanscare Government. Is this right or am I mixed up?

Check out this thread, and that includes a link to another old thread, which can answer that question in some detail. The short version of events is, yes, SNRI is still around. BESPA was essentially the Side 2 branch of SNRI, which the Zanscares took over when they gained control of the Side. There may also be some SNRI people on the side of the League Militarie as well (See the first link), and Anaheim is still happily building MS and everything else (Remember, they do things other than build MS ) to their hearts content (And no doubt selling to anyone willing to buy).

[Homeless]

It is a shame that the Federation didn't have a stronger presence to discourage attacks. Sitting back and just letting the Spacenoids kill each other every decade or so is the most ironic outcome of the independence movement, and it is hilarious.

[Crosswire40]

Wow! That clears a lot of things up! Thanks for the link to the forum, I apologize for not looking this information up individuality, but here’s what I’ve taken out of it:

------------
Zanscare only annexed the S.N.R.I assets on Side 2, while they got a lot facilities, researchers and possible some MS data (Possibly old and new considering the Zong) and learned how to make top notch MS, they had to develop most of the actual weapon and armor data themselves. I see! So it wasn’t that they didn’t have the facilities to make the stuff, it’s that the assets on how to make stuff like the V.S.B.R. were elsewhere! Also, that might explain why they pumped out new suits and weapon so far, while the Federation took so long to develop new suits (Which I believe might be the RGM-196 Freedom or something like that)

B.E.S.P.A comes from the annexed S.N.R.I. assets and the Federation forces stationed at Side 2, who were ether convinced to join Zanscare, bribed or turned coat on the struggling Federation. Also "bespa" is Latin for "hornet" or "yellowjacket," it seems likely that the elite Yellowjackets are possibly direct descendants of the original Federation Forces unit.

Anaheim is still around and still pretty successful, even now that their MS sales aren’t what they used to be they’re still making the buck in the commercial and retail market. They assist the League in a similar manner they did with the A.E.U.G.

---------------

I still got some questions, but you guys got the meat of them (man you guys are good at this!). I think I have one more before I get into the final stretch.

OK here I go:

Were the Zanscare Empire making Cyber Newtypes? Katejina was screwed up from the start, but her behavior and combat abilities later on seemed to point to artificial enhancement. At first I just chalked it up to her training or her sheer craziness But I swear I remember glimpsing somewhere that in the novels it was stated that after one of her fights with Uso she underwent some surgery. I can’t find this source anywhere, but maybe there’s some truth to it? I mean Fuala Griffon didn't come off like she had any Newtype abilities when she first shows up, then later in the series she begins to act really weird and uses some Newtype specific weaponry. She was exiled to die in space, so did the shock of almost dying awaken her abilities or was she made into a Cyber Newtype?

Oh Forgot to add these:

So what was the goal of the Zanscare's Invasion if they were just building the Angel Halo? Wouldn't attacking be pointless if they were just gonna use the Angel Halo to kill them all? Or was the point of the attack to draw attention away from the construction of the Angel Halo?

I can't find much info on the area's Zanscare invaded. I assume most of the action took place in Europe from where Woowig and Largaine were revealed to be. Still, It's hard to believe a force like Zanscare wouldn't attack other areas. Isn't their a Desert Version of the Zollidia? Last time I checked their aren't many deserts in Europe. Anyone have any suggestions on what kind of invasion plan the Zanscare were following?

Was the Reinforce Junior built using a Squid Class Zanscare ship and the Reinforce, or just a recovered Squid Class? Also how was the White Ark made? Was it just thrown together or was it built from that Sinope Class they were riding around in for a while?

(Sorry about double posting :c)

[J-Lead]

It is a shame that the Federation didn't have a stronger presence to discourage attacks. Sitting back and just letting the Spacenoids kill each other every decade or so is the most ironic outcome of the independence movement, and it is hilarious.

IIRC, That wasn't so much a side effect of the independence movement as it was the fact that the Federation's political power degraded to the point of being completely ineffective, and the colonies were reduced to forming independent militias using 40-50 year old mobile suits because the Federation Military was too busy regrouping half the time.

If anything, the Federation Government's ineffectiveness and worse, their politicians' indifference toward spacenoid affairs, would be a argument in favor of Spacenoid independence; if they can't protect their own colonies or keep urges of conquest in check, what's the point of governing them at all?

[Homeless]

I just like how after Spacenoids murder billions of Spacenoids purportedly in the name of Spacenoid independence, the situation they end up with is every now and again another crazy Spacenoid movement crops up that has "murder Spacenoids" pretty high on the agenda while the Federation tries to stay uninvolved.

[ShadowCell]

"the Federation can't stop us from murdering each other all the time" is kind of a hollow argument for your independence anyways.

[AmuroNT1]

I just like how after Spacenoids murder billions of Spacenoids purportedly in the name of Spacenoid independence, the situation they end up with is every now and again another crazy Spacenoid movement crops up that has "murder Spacenoids" pretty high on the agenda while the Federation tries to stay uninvolved.

Kind of like how people spout propaganda about "The Sleeves fight for all Spacenoids!" while we get a very stark contrast between the rich and poor on Zeon-allied colonies?

[mcred23]

Also, that might explain why they pumped out new suits and weapon so far, while the Federation took so long to develop new suits (Which I believe might be the RGM-196 Freedom or something like that)

It wasn't really having the former assets from Side 2 so much as the Zanscares had the motivation and desire to develop MS and whatnot quickly, while the Federation felt no such rush to do so. In the second Universal Century, they don't have the need to rapidly develop and crank out swarms of MS as rapidly as they did in the 0080's (Which is also when the technology was newer and developing rapidly, which isn't exactly the case in the UC 0100's), which is why they can go and take their time to work out suits. Look at the Jamesgun, which had it's development started in UC 0119 (Hence the model number, FYI), but by UC 0123 they only had seven prototypes out there. It's mentioned in the first thread I linked to that the Federation was well aware the Jamesgun and Javelin needed to be replaced, but budget cuts delayed it's development, and they probably felt no great rush to do so anyway.

And no, their next suit wouldn't be the Freedom. As bad as the Federation is, they aren't going to wait another 43 years to actually develop and build another MS (Which, at that point, would mean the Jamesgun and Javelin would be over 70 years old!). Presumably, that eventual replacement for them mentioned in the Javelin's manual did come out, but it was probably a couple of years after the Zanscare war ended.

I can't find much info on the area's Zanscare invaded. I assume most of the action took place in Europe from where Woowig and Largaine were revealed to be. Still, It's hard to believe a force like Zanscare wouldn't attack other areas. Isn't their a Desert Version of the Zollidia? Last time I checked their aren't many deserts in Europe. Anyone have any suggestions on what kind of invasion plan the Zanscare were following?

They start off just in Europe, but it spreads later in the show once the Motorad fleet gets involved. As a quick reference, just check the the ol' High Frontier timeline which mentions most of the places they travel to.

Was the Reinforce Junior built using a Squid Class Zanscare ship and the Reinforce, or just a recovered Squid Class? Also how was the White Ark made? Was it just thrown together or was it built from that Sinope Class they were riding around in for a while?

Just looking at it should answer that, as you can still see quite a bit of the original Reinforce in the Reinforce Junior's design.

As for the White Ark, I thought it was just some little ship they got from somewhere and not something they somehow built on the fly. I've never heard the latter suggested, and I don't recall anything about it being mentioned in Victory, but it's been a few years since I watched the show, so perhaps someone else can shed some light on that.

[Crosswire40]

Sorry for asking some obvious questions, but I just wanted to make 100% sure.

A solid timeline! Yes, just what I needed. Now I can start hammering out a rough map of the invasion.

One more question before I move on (I swear this time )

How Zanscare Develop their ground based mobile suits? I was always under the impression Zanscare had invaded the Earth sooner using Zoloats and began developing proper earth bound suits from there after seeing the Zolorotor in the V-Variations. However I’m not quite sure anymore. Did they develop them before the invasion? Or during the invasion? Wouldn’t developing Earth-Use mobile suits in the colonies be difficult?

You guys are wonderful;-; seriously thank you so much. I’m amazed I didn't come here sooner.

OK now the rest of my questions and inquiries are about less factual stuff and more opinion based stuff. But I have to ask, should I ask this stuff here or should I make another topic for it in the RP or Game section? I mean the next series of questions are for more story/Roleplay related issues, plot, timeline, continuity, est, est.

[toysdream]

As far as the fighting on Earth, the Motorad fleet's full-scale invasion (Operation Giant Roller) begins in the Gulf of Mexico and continues across North America. Aside from Europe, that's the main front shown in the animation.

In space, the Sugan fleet spends a big chunk of the series laying siege to Side 1. Aside from the fighting around Keilas Guilie he invasion of Side 1 is the main space front up until the Angel Halo battle, but it's pretty much all off-camera.

Looking at the "New MSV Handbook" series, where the V-MSV designs first appeared, I see South American and Asian color schemes for the Jamesgun, but it doesn't mention them entering combat. The RGM-119D version of the Jamesgun, however, was used by the "Four Avengers" team to fight BESPA's African occupation forces. With the help of the League Militaire's "Bluebird" night-fighting team, they halted BESPA's advance near Mount Kilimanjaro.

In the section on the Tomliat, it says that its deployment "centered on Largane, and it was also deployed to the African region occupation forces." There's also a Zollidia Desert, which it says was "expected to be deployed in the Near and Middle East, Asia, and Africa."

The handbooks also mention that the Zanscare Empire didn't always have complete control of Side 2. At the same time as the Earth invasion, the empire was still battling the "Side 2 combined fleet", so a lot of its forces were devoted to colony defense.

-- Mark

[Amion]

Hm, this is the first I've heard about the siege of Side 1, I'm glad I found this tidbit. It makes things fit together more easily in my head.

And, if I'm not mistaken, didn't the Zanscare cut the solar power from the East Asia area or something? I always thought that was an offhand reference that they indeed were occupying other places aside from Europe.

And on topic of the Sugan's Fleet, I was almost certain it had come from Jupiter or something. Glad to know that it was actually involved directly with the war, though I guess it doesn't matter considering it gets stardusted by the Kyles Guile. (Munches on a chocolate bar thoughtfully)