Gundam cliches you could do without?

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Strike Zero
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Strike Zero » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:18 am

Kuruni wrote:Well, remember that, by Sunrise's policy, you can ignore all manga.
Or not, seeing as how the Hazel made it into the new Zeta trilogy, thereby rendering Advance of Zeta as "official" by proxy. :wink:
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kuruni » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:14 am

Hazel's existence is official, Advance of Z's story still not.

Plus, AoZ isn't OYW story. :mrgreen:
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I would vote yes if it's really an 'adult show', as in R+18 rated anime :twisted:

Ok, lets me inject this. As weird as it seem, I want them to pause from making another psuedo-real robot genre. And before any of you scream, I don't want gritty realism, I want to see them turn Gundam into older super robot format, with monster of the week! Something like Heisei Kamen Rider series is ideal! (and since G Gundam is old now, there is good chance they might really do it :D )
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Strike105
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Strike105 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:59 pm

Changing a few key elements like setting and style can be very refreshing in some cases, which is probably why many people loved shows like G, X, and Turn A. Gundam has almost always had the same futuristic setting. Sure some minor details may have changed depending on the series, but it's mostly been the same thing in different packaging. Those three shows stand out to me because they went in very different directions from the older UC shows in terms of style and setting.

G Gundam is probably the best example. It took the franchise away from the dark and gritty "Real Robot" style with crying teenagers that it created, and it was instead a "Super Robot" show full of hot-blooded characters doing ridiculous things, had equally ridiculous mecha designs, and it just had stuff that just didn't seem to belong in anything bearing the Gundam name. But, amazingly, it still worked, and people still look back on G Gundam fondly almost twenty years later.

One thing I'd personally like to see is Gundam abandoning it's futuristic setting for a little while, and instead, going into a more midieval fantasy setting with some slight futuristic elements, sort of like Escaflowne/Drakengard.

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Amion
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Amion » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:08 pm

Yes, revival of G gundam would be nice, maybe even a version modeled like Zoids Zero Century, which is pretty realistic. Although I would miss and still don't mind the crazy martial arts elements, though being a black belt myself (albeit one who has essentually lost his touch) has something to do with it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by YazanGable » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:00 pm

Strike105 wrote:Changing a few key elements like setting and style can be very refreshing in some cases, which is probably why many people loved shows like G, X, and Turn A. Gundam has almost always had the same futuristic setting. Sure some minor details may have changed depending on the series, but it's mostly been the same thing in different packaging. Those three shows stand out to me because they went in very different directions from the older UC shows in terms of style and setting.
I suppose now's a bad time to remind that X and Turn A were both considered failures when they came out, X so much so that it currently holds the distinction of being the only other Gundam title since 0079 to actually get cancelled.

Hell, even nowadays, X is still something of a black sheep in Japan. G and Turn A are in a bit better standing there, but not really considered staples of the franchise.

Even in the west, X and Turn A are still a bit more niche, and G's popularity is largely attributed to its Toonami run.

Not saying they're bad shows, mind you. Just saying, let's not go making it seem like they were sleeper hits.

Also, G Gundam is kind of an odd example to use when you consider WHY they changed things. If you read the Imagawa interview on MAHQ, you'll find out it wasn't the show he planned to make. Bandai pitched him the Gundam fight idea because they saw that tournament fighting was, at the time, the new hotness, and figured they could cash in on it (seriously, while Imagawa made the show good, the entire basis that formed G Gundam was purely market-driven.)
Hell, a big part of what saved the show was Imagawa actually giving it the Devil storyline to keep it from just being all fighting all the time, which was what the suits wanted.

The show turned out alright, but the fact is, as an example it's a double-edged sword, since its initial motives were profit-driven rather than simply a desire for change.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by ShadowCell » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:44 pm

and of course, let's not forget how the western fandom reacted to G Gundam: "not Gundam, super robot crap, DBZ with Gundams, not realistic, Gundam is real robots not supers"

and G Gundam's differences from the archetypal Gundam show are a lot more profound and clever than the cliched list of western Gundam fan grievances, to be honest

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Strike105 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:11 pm

I am aware of how X did when it aired. I only singled it out because of its fairly unique setting compared to the other shows. I've heard a couple of rumors as to why it fared so poorly, though I don't think any of the stories I've heard about it said it was disliked because of its story or setting.

Aside from the "Evangelion killed it" story, the most common story I've heard about X was that many fans were sort of "burned out" on Gundam as a whole around the time it aired, since the 90s alone (before EW) had one feature-length movie, one compilation movie, two OVAs, a boatload of manga, and Gundam X was the fourth consecutive Gundam series to take that specific channel timeslot in a row. This "burnout" also led to poor model sales for X kits, which in turn meant less funding for the show. After a while of poor ratings and model sales, the show was moved to a very early timeslot in the mornings, when it was unlikely that some people would be able to watch it, and then it was eventually cancelled.

I don't know whether this whole story is true or not, but I can definately understand how too much of something in a fairly short period of time can drain your enthusiasm for more.

As for G Gundam, I remember some of the comments that were aimed at it for a while. When it's brought up now, though, it doesn't seem to get anywhere near as much hate as it used to get a few years ago, at least not when compared to SEED, DESTINY, and AGE. I'm willing to bet 00 may have helped some people ease up on G a little bit, considering things like Trans-Am and other GN Particle associated shenanigans. Then again, it's possible that I'm just not looking hard enough for G Gundam hate.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Khandri » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:26 pm

^ Evangelion couldn't kill GX by simple virtue of them not airing at the same time, Eva in '95 and GX in '96. Where in the world do people keep getting this hair-brained idea from anyway?

As it was said some time ago in the actual GX thread, we may never know why exactly it wasn't given a chance, and it could be any one reason or a combination of multiple reasons. Sunrise and Bandai already try to pretend it never existed anyway, so the odds of them actually telling us anything are slim to none.

Actually...you know what? I know this shouldn't be a "things you wish would happen" thread, but it would be nice if Sunrise and Bandai did knock it off with the whole "pretending that certain parts of the franchise don't exist" BS and treat them with the same respect as all the others, expanding on their stories/timelines/whatever and making more merchandise related to them. And I'm not just talking about the AW timeline either; I'd like to see more of FC after the 13th Gundam Fight, as well as more in the second or third centuries of the UC. You can only cram so much into the 0079-0096 timeframe, after all.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Vent Noir » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:30 pm

I think the thinking is that, after Eva came out, the audience was less interested in "old school" mecha shows.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:50 pm

The Toonami run really helped G because it allowed people to actually watch the show and not rely on second hand reports and out of context line art. I remember when I was first getting into Gundam in 2001 and was looking at stuff like Gundam Project and Mecha Domain. Stuff like Zeus Gundam made me assume G must be a horrible black sheep. However I was intrigued and hunted it down to watch...it's now easily one of my favourites and I found alot of what I'd been told wasn't even accurate.
The only thing I begrudge the Toonami run for is giving us people who will insist on using the dub alterations and errors.

I really wish X had come after Wing in the West. It really would have been the perfect bridge from Wing's concepts to UC's and would hopefully have killed the 'X is a horrible mess that doesn't even have an ending!' nonsense that persists to this day.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by bullethead » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:58 pm

To be fair to the dub, some of the Gundam name changes were improvements. God to Burning was one that made the Neo Japan name scheme make more sense.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:12 pm

bullethead wrote:To be fair to the dub, some of the Gundam name changes were improvements. God to Burning was one that made the Neo Japan name scheme make more sense.
That all comes down to opinion. Burning fits with the naming scheme but 'Erupting Burning Finger' sounds really awkward and the VAs phoned in performances so much it sounded like they were describing a Gundam that was burning. God is a pretty common name for super robots to say it's a unit without equal (case in point, Powermaster Transformers are called Godmasters in Japan).
Likewise Dark Gundam annoys me because some of the best moments of the show play up that it's called Devil because it's a horrible, inhuman monster ( "It truely is the Devil Gundam!"). Dark Gundam is just too....safe.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by DAG101 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:44 pm

Well, it needed to be safe, because the religious names could be seen as offensive. I personally think both names fit, and I thought Dark Gundam worked as a name, kept the 'DG' shortening, and maintained a lot of the antonym-naming (God vs Devil, to Shining/Burning vs Dark)

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kuruni » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:41 am

Khandri wrote:Actually...you know what? I know this shouldn't be a "things you wish would happen" thread, but it would be nice if Sunrise and Bandai did knock it off with the whole "pretending that certain parts of the franchise don't exist" BS and treat them with the same respect as all the others, expanding on their stories/timelines/whatever and making more merchandise related to them.


I don't think Bandai ever pretend that X doesn't exist. It got include in every G Generation games afterall, even if it tend to be water down. If we're talking about G-Saviour however...

If Gundam is a family, X would be their unfavourite child. One that the parents hate for his low grade. But they still call him their son and provide him a room, just not really fond of him. At same time, G-Saviour would be living in basement, all of his records burned and nobody want to talk about his existence (they still not kill him though).

And geez, when its' X-kun - their neighborhood, you, will comment how X isn't too bad boy, and how he should does well if he follow his big brother W to America. When it's G-Saviour, you roll your eyes and ask if the parents didn't kill him yet?
You can only cram so much into the 0079-0096 timeframe, after all.
Until Unicorn come out, its upper limit is 0093. So they did expand that already :P . I known what you mean though.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:58 pm

DAG101 wrote:Well, it needed to be safe, because the religious names could be seen as offensive. I personally think both names fit, and I thought Dark Gundam worked as a name, kept the 'DG' shortening, and maintained a lot of the antonym-naming (God vs Devil, to Shining/Burning vs Dark)
I'm aware of the reasons why it happened, but I don't have to necessairly agree with them. I believe there's even an interview archived on MAHQ where a member of Bandai America says even they felt some of the renames they were forced to use were stupid.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kuruni » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:26 am

HellCat wrote:I'm aware of the reasons why it happened, but I don't have to necessairly agree with them. I believe there's even an interview archived on MAHQ where a member of Bandai America says even they felt some of the renames they were forced to use were stupid.
Ahh...(pat HellCat's shoulder) I understand you well. I too, fully aware of the reasons why lolicon is prohibited, but I don't agree with them at all.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Sume Gai » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:40 am

After a lot of thought I really think the one thing Gundam could afford to do differently, at least for a Season or two, is to hang up the mask. To be frank the most recent three Masked Aces in full series have been less than stellar.

Neo's twist was contradictory and ultimately mishandled into a Karmic Houdini. Despite personal understanding and respect for what was intended 00 didn't really have enough time for Mister Bushido. Zeheart Doesn't ultimately have a particularly good in character Reason for the Mask and seems to mostly be dragged around by its history for most of his run.

I really think that Gundam could lose this one without compromising itself as a war story or franchise. It really feels like the Writers have run a bit dry on good reasons to have a masked ace so why add in that expectation? Can one not make a character mysterious with out a mask?
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:29 pm

Another thing I could do with them relaxing- the black and white looks at career military. Like most people I'm anti-war and enjoy various moments when Gundam takes a stand on it and the military (one of my favourite Amuro moments is when he loses it over the empty award that is Ryu's two rank promotion in death when the Federation did little to prevent it). However, by virtue of having pilots and such in a structured military the franchise clearly believes war is to some degree justified. So why do we rarely get to see career soldiers looked at in a positive light? One of my favourite parts of 00 was how through Sergei we got to see those who enlist to fight to protect and that being in the military doesn't mean you're some war monger with no respect for life. A valid counterpoint to the one usually offered. I'd say AGE had tried to explore it but then the likes of Flit are more Captain Ahab then respectable soldiers.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by ShadowCell » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:05 pm

Gundam doesn't actually treat career military officers that badly all around, to be honest; for every M'Quve and Bask Om there's a Bright Noah or Ramba Ral as a counterpoint.

what it does do, however, is take a very dim view of the military as an institution. the military is pretty much always the ones who conduct the horrible tragic superweapon girl experiments and start the wars and gas the colonies and whatnot. even Anaheim Electronics, the archetypal ruthless corporation that stirs up trouble for its own profit, doesn't get quite as harsh a glare as the military.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by SniperBlade » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:23 pm

ShadowCell wrote:Gundam
what it does do, however, is take a very dim view of the military as an institution. the military is pretty much always the ones who conduct the horrible tragic superweapon girl experiments and start the wars and gas the colonies and whatnot. even Anaheim Electronics, the archetypal ruthless corporation that stirs up trouble for its own profit, doesn't get quite as harsh a glare as the military.

GASP, a violent bloody Gundam show. Where the realistic and gritty robots try to take out the super robots of the Anaheim Electronics

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