General Fan Fiction Discussion

[ShadowCell]

Can you start your own thread instead of using this one for your fanfic, please?

[Strike Wing]

Thanks for the heads up on the typo; and I won't bother posting trailers anymore...

[Antares]

@ Strike Wing: You can post trailers or previews, sure, but just in the thread for your own fanfic. People will see new posts and go check them out there. This thread is for discussing general fanfiction ideas and concepts, so you'll understand it would get quite filled up if people used it to report their activities.

[Nitramy]

I just have a couple of questions:

One, what makes a wonderful/great/good/mediocre/bad/awful/we're-not-going-there character in a Gundam series?

And two, what would be needed to make, say, a character that's already been written, a more well-rounded, believable character (sorry for the redundancy)?

[Black Knight]

The answer to all of those is the generic answer I get to questions in the Marine Corps: Situational dependent.

There's no "magic bullet" formula for good characters, because as soon as someone develops a formula that works, it gets repeated twenty times, and thus turns from original and fresh into cliche and boring.

Take UC Gundam stories. Almost every one has the main character be a NewType. This is understandable since all of the shows focus on how badass NewTypes are. But it means that most authors think the only way to make a character badass/interesting is to make them a NewType. Me, I hate NewType MS pilots, because NewTypeism is typically used to make a pilot invincible. Thats essentially how Tomino used it, so I lay the blame on him. NewTypes who aren't MS/MA pilots I find far more interesting, because they break the established pattern. This makes them more of a challenge to write, of course, because there is less official material to draw on for how they should behave, what NewTypeism does for them, etc.

CE Coordinators are often treated the same way, with people focusing on their abilities as mobile suit pilots. But what about Coordinator ship crews? What bonus does their Coordinator gene set give them there? Not many people seem to want to delve into that. What about Coordinators who didn't jump on the we're-a-new-race bandwagon, and were actually a part of OMNI Enforcer when the war started, because they really believed Glen's line that Coordinators were supposed to help normals? Where do their loyalties fall?

The trick to interesting characters isn't to have something completely new, it's to have something different enough to be interesting. But how different is "enough" varies from person to person. You should definitely give a main character some weaknesses, however, and have them fail occasionally. How they deal with their weaknesses and failures is a much more interesting way to spur character development than the Super Robot genre standby of "Character Development Through Violent, Sudden Death of Friends/Family".

[YazanGable]

Take UC Gundam stories. Almost every one has the main character be a NewType. This is understandable since all of the shows focus on how badass NewTypes are. But it means that most authors think the only way to make a character badass/interesting is to make them a NewType. Me, I hate NewType MS pilots, because NewTypeism is typically used to make a pilot invincible. Thats essentially how Tomino used it, so I lay the blame on him. NewTypes who aren't MS/MA pilots I find far more interesting, because they break the established pattern. This makes them more of a challenge to write, of course, because there is less official material to draw on for how they should behave, what NewTypeism does for them, etc.

CE Coordinators are often treated the same way, with people focusing on their abilities as mobile suit pilots. But what about Coordinator ship crews? What bonus does their Coordinator gene set give them there? Not many people seem to want to delve into that. What about Coordinators who didn't jump on the we're-a-new-race bandwagon, and were actually a part of OMNI Enforcer when the war started, because they really believed Glen's line that Coordinators were supposed to help normals? Where do their loyalties fall?

Honestly, I'm going to have to disagreee with your assesment of Newtypes, especially in regards to how Tomino depicts them.
These characters aren't exceptionally skilled because they're Newtypes, they're skilled because they're the leads.
In fact, in series, Tomino does a LOT to cut down the idea of NTs as unbeatable (whether it's something as simple as Sayla outright saying "Newtypes aren't supermen." or the fact oldtype pilot Yazan is able to regularly thrash Newtypes in Zeta around (even Kamille has problems defeating him, and even then fails to kill him.)

To this end, Tomino seems to further this idea by, with the possible exception of ZZ, depicting Newtypes as having largely tragic lives (something he even joked about in F-91, when Birghit talks about the stories of Newtypes, and how they were largely considered to be the most miserable people you'd ever meet.)

Really, suggesting NTs are invincible gods of war is part of the problem Tomino saw with NTs in the first place. They aren't invincible, they're just human beings, albeit ones with slightly more perception (remember, not every Newtype was Kamille or Amuro, Challia Bull, Sara Zabiarov, and Katz Kobayashi were all NTs to a degree as well, and, fancy equipment aside, left quite a bit to be desired on the battlefield.

As for the Coordinators. The problem is, in CE, EVERYONE who isn't a pilot or MAYBE a politician gets the shaft. About the only other crew we even see on the ships are the bridge team (which, in most Gundam series, run the gamut from capable leaders to throwaway bunnies) and hangar techies (of whom Astonaige seems to have been the only one to ever leave much of an impression.) If anything, the non-pilot Coordinators have been depicted in a far better light than non-pilot Naturals have. Also, the show HAS answered the question of where some of those other capabilities can go, hence the numerous flashback/clipshow bits of Coordinator children excelling in athletics and academia miles ahead of their Natural classmates.

[Mr. Hanekoma]

Take UC Gundam stories. Almost every one has the main character be a NewType. This is understandable since all of the shows focus on how badass NewTypes are. But it means that most authors think the only way to make a character badass/interesting is to make them a NewType. Me, I hate NewType MS pilots, because NewTypeism is typically used to make a pilot invincible. Thats essentially how Tomino used it, so I lay the blame on him. NewTypes who aren't MS/MA pilots I find far more interesting, because they break the established pattern. This makes them more of a challenge to write, of course, because there is less official material to draw on for how they should behave, what NewTypeism does for them, etc.

I think you're getting your UC shows confused with your UC fanfiction. Very rarely in an actual UC story will they depict a pilot as being invincible. Sure, they may tear through grunts like tissure paper, but Newtype pilots are frequently shown to be anything but invincible.

Of course, the opposite is true in most of the UC fanfiction I've read over the years. Basically, Newtype= God hax.

I agree completely with your assessment of Coordinators though. Of course, I hate everything in the Cosmic Era except the Astray series with a passion.

[Black Knight]

Honestly, I'm going to have to disagreee with your assesment of Newtypes, especially in regards to how Tomino depicts them.
These characters aren't exceptionally skilled because they're Newtypes, they're skilled because they're the leads.
In fact, in series, Tomino does a LOT to cut down the idea of NTs as unbeatable (whether it's something as simple as Sayla outright saying "Newtypes aren't supermen." or the fact oldtype pilot Yazan is able to regularly thrash Newtypes in Zeta around (even Kamille has problems defeating him, and even then fails to kill him.)

Sayla can protest that Newtypes aren't Supermen, but Amuro can also blatantly abuse his hero-worship cult to buck up morale saying its "newtype intuition" that tells him the EFSF is in the strongest position prior to A Baoa Qu. "Appearance is reality." The truth often takes a back seat to what people want to believe.

To this end, Tomino seems to further this idea by, with the possible exception of ZZ, depicting Newtypes as having largely tragic lives (something he even joked about in F-91, when Birghit talks about the stories of Newtypes, and how they were largely considered to be the most miserable people you'd ever meet.)

Not really sure why this is relevant; they might have been miserable, but they were quite hard to kill along the way.

Really, suggesting NTs are invincible gods of war is part of the problem Tomino saw with NTs in the first place. They aren't invincible, they're just human beings, albeit ones with slightly more perception (remember, not every Newtype was Kamille or Amuro, Challia Bull, Sara Zabiarov, and Katz Kobayashi were all NTs to a degree as well, and, fancy equipment aside, left quite a bit to be desired on the battlefield.

Actually, just about every named pilot in Zeta Gundam, including Yazan, can have a case made for them being a Newtype; see in particular Yazan's encounters with Reccoa. This seems to be Tomino's method of degrading the relative value of Newtypes; to quote another Superhero movie, "If everyone is special, no one is." It doesn't help the life expectancy of the OldTypes, however. Rather the opposite; there are more people around to slaughter them in droves.

It's true, however, that NewTypes aren't invincible. They can be killed -- but only by another NewType. Against a true "OldType" they mop the floor. Only another realized or nascent NewType poses a real threat to a NewType, even if said NewType is only in a fighter. All the NewTypes you mentioned as "leaving quite a bit to be desired on the battlefield" were killed by another NewType, with the exception of Katz, who died due to his own stupidity (which pleased me).

However, as Mr. Hanekoma, noted, I was speaking of the use of NewTypes in fanfiction.

[YazanGable]

"Appearance is reality." The truth often takes a back seat to what people want to believe.

Some people in Gundam also genuinely believed Gihren when he said Zeon was God's chosen people. What people believe in shows, and what actually s, are two different matters. Your case relies on what is, not what's believed.

Not really sure why this is relevant; they might have been miserable, but they were quite hard to kill along the way.

It's a balancing factor. Sort of like the question of 'would you want to live forever if it meant seeing everyone you loved grow old and die?'
Tomino made Newtypes in such a way that, despite their perceived godly status on the battlefield, people wouldn't want to be one of them (in theoyr, anyways. Fanfiction authors often forget things like Quess's response to her father's death, and Kamille's reaction to the mass-killing in colonies.)
For lack of a better comparison, (and since we're bringing superheroes into the mix with your analogy) it's a little like Dr. Manhattan. They may be more powerful...but considering what it does to their lives, most people wouldn't consider the trade worth it.

Actually, just about every named pilot in Zeta Gundam, including Yazan, can have a case made for them being a Newtype; see in particular Yazan's encounters with Reccoa. This seems to be Tomino's method of degrading the relative value of Newtypes; to quote another Superhero movie, "If everyone is special, no one is." It doesn't help the life expectancy of the OldTypes, however. Rather the opposite; there are more people around to slaughter them in droves.

It's true, however, that NewTypes aren't invincible. They can be killed -- but only by another NewType. Against a true "OldType" they mop the floor. Only another realized or nascent NewType poses a real threat to a NewType, even if said NewType is only in a fighter. All the NewTypes you mentioned as "leaving quite a bit to be desired on the battlefield" were killed by another NewType, with the exception of Katz, who died due to his own stupidity (which pleased me).

Actually, Katz was a combination of his own stupidity and Yazan potshotting him.

Also, Sara's death had nothing to do with any sort of NT skill. An Oldtype could have just as easily made that shot, and she'd still use herself as a shield to protect Scirocco.

As for the borderline NTs, that leads to a lot of speculation though. This also means, while never stated, there's evidence for Revil and the entire WB crew being Newtypes (G Gen F even goes so far as to list Revil as a legit NT.

Tomino seemed to want to suggest that more of humanity was changing as the series went on. After CCA, he played it down bit for F-91 (although I suspect if it had been a full series, that would have changed) but Victory seems to suggest it was coming back (what with many of the shows youngest cast members showing potential to be very powerful Newtypes.)

But, then, as the last part shows, it seems your beef is less with Newtypes themselves, more with the fandom's popular misconception of Newtypes.

[Seraphic]

I just have a couple of questions:

One, what makes a wonderful/great/good/mediocre/bad/awful/we're-not-going-there character in a Gundam series?

And two, what would be needed to make, say, a character that's already been written, a more well-rounded, believable character (sorry for the redundancy)?

I, too, have issues against Newtypes, but allow me to take this in another direction, gentlemen.

Nitramy, let me offer some advice coming from the other end of the spectrum. Inevitably my advice will be difficult and hard to execute, but hopefully keeping it in mind will prove useful. Sure, your characters are there to experience and drive the story you are trying to write, but to make them believable and well-rounded, you have to remember that on top of all that they're supposed to be "real people" too!

A person that only ever talks about himself, or his piloting, or whatever is directly relevant is rather boring, and a bit unrealistic also. To bring your characters closer to reality, think more about their common life. What do they like? What annoys them or pisses them off? What are they afraid of? Where do they want to go, and what do they want to do with their lives? Why do they think the way they do? Who do they care about? Why are those people worth all of this suffering? And how do they feel about their place in the world?

Incorporating these things will help your readers relate to the characters a lot more. And another minor piece of advice: when writing dialogue, make sure that their speech doesn't sound completely idiotic outside of that context. I know when you're writing the dialogue that you are directly focused on the situation, but you have to make sure that the things being said and the language being used makes sense in the real world. Just imagine a real person saying it. Or actually say the line out loud to yourself. If the line doesn't cause you to react with "WTF??" or "Are you out of your damn mind??" then you're probably in a reasonably good place.

...This last part is just advice I learned from reading one of the fics here. I felt like my soul was being raped. And I still need to finish it, unfortunately. Sometimes being a man of your word is bad for you.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not quite with Newtypes, but I've always liked toying with non-combat coordinators/Seedlings in the Seed universe. Even someone as sidelined as a nationalist coordinator hiding in the Atlantic Federation as a bridge techie could save one situation or another with his coordinator skills, and then you'd have an unabused plot thread of a covert coordinator hiding in and fighting for a nation that hates him.

Similarly, a Earth politician who could match Cagelli and Lacus with his own politician!Seed mode machivilianism would also be fun.


With newtypes, there isn't that much that hasn't been done. Not least because of their talents, they always seem to end up used as pilots or, rarely, captains of ships. Something I haven't seen, though, is a newtype doctor. That could be rather interesting, since a newtype might even sense all the pain of every patient.

[Strike Wing]

Well I don't necessarily have newtypes in Gundam-S, but I do have plans for the equivalent. Though I do have ideas for some new powers for these people, and trying to not make them godly though. Maybe I could have work in terms of... they can only use those powers fully against another character with abilities. Might be rather interesting in the long run.

And if I do another fic after S, maybe I'll have that one without any Newtype-ish characters, just to see how it'll go.

[YazanGable]

OK...been kind of tinkering with an idea for a little while now.

Fresh timeline, albeit with a slight inspiration from X in the regards that its divergence comes from a variation of the OYW history.

First part's still fairly straightforward...mankind moves to colonies to ease up population.
Peaceful attempts at autonomy are attempted and fail pretty badly. In the midst of this, one leader comes out and starts advocating the idea of taking freedom for themselves.

The Earth government belives he's simply spouting rhetoric and starts setting up the blockades.

Events similar to OWW play out. Mobile suits allow colonies to dominate pretty hard.

The difference in this time - the equivalent 'Zeon is exhausted' doesn't happen.

The Revil-equivalent does escape capture. The problem is, his escape is just a little too late and, on his return to the Earth sphere, the Earth government is now kowtowing to the colonies.

Flashforward a bit.
With the exception of a few neutral colonies, the human race is, effectively, under colonial rule.
A program of aggressive forced emmigration from Earth has been in effect for some time now. This comes complete with a branch of the armed forces intended to seek out and forcefully remove any possible resistance.
Many would-be resistance movements are crushed during this time, but one seems to be becoming more and more constant - a faction lead by the Revil-equivalent and several loyalists from the old Earth government.
Of course, without MS, they're still at a disadvantage (barring what enemy suits they've been able to steal.)

At this point, two things happen.
First - the patriarch of the colonies' ruling family dies. In the aftermath of his passing, his two eldest children immediately begin quarreling over the matter of who will establish leadership over the colonies (due to the sudden, and potentially unnatural, nature of his death, a contingency hadn't been decided on yet.)
Of the children we have:
-The elder sister, somewhat in the Kycillia vein, but operating less out of her own designs and more from distrust of her brother
-The older brother, somewhere between Gihren and Garma. Possesses the former's ambition and planning, the latter's overeagerness.
-The 'Dozel' equivalent. A career soldier who openly expresses his distate for politics. While leery over the older two, protective of the younger sibling.
-Who is, admittedly, a partial jab at the princess archetypes the genre has been seeing so much of lately. She spends a good chunk of the series playing herself off as innocent and naive (to the point she has her own specially appointed group of bodyguards referred to as the White Knights) while working behind the scenes to agitate her siblings' civil war to get them out of the way.

...anyways.
The other event:
An independent weapons company from one of the neutral colonies, seeing the persistence of this Earth-based resistance, as well as the confusion of the civil war, gets opportunistic.
They decide to send one of their new projects to the resistance for them to try out and evaluate (in this series, this would explain the Gundam's flashy paint scheme and V-fin. It's to make the product look nicer.)

Still working out the details on this point. As it stands, for the first arc, I see the delivery still managing to get botched, but still working out that part further.

As it stands, only other notes have at this point.

Following the deaths of the other siblings, the 'princess' character, under the guise of not quite realizing what she's doing, assumes command of the colonies.
Her first move - bring the neutral colonies in line.

Final battle would consist of a faceoff between her forces and a begrudging alliance of the Earth resistance forces, what forces the neutral colonies could gather, and some of the soldiers that served the elder daughter of the family.

Admittedly, a lot of this is STILL very rough.

Just figured I'd run what there is by for possible feedback/suggestions

...yeah, it's a work in progress.

[Seraphic]

Yazan, (I am trying very very hard to address you as a writer and not a crazed molester....)

I'll tell you that I have high hopes for your project. Hell, if you can keep your grammar as nice as it is in your post here, I'd be happy to read it. A lot of the writing here is incoherent in comparison.

I do feel that your strong analogies to specific UC personalities hurt you a bit though. I mean, are they that closely alike? You could stand to move a little further outside the UC box. =)

[YazanGable]

I do feel that your strong analogies to specific UC personalities hurt you a bit though. I mean, are they that closely alike? You could stand to move a little further outside the UC box. =)

Truth be told, the actual project will distance itself from the UC a bit more as things progress.

Part of the similarity here is, admittedly, inspired by a long-term idea I've held to any time I see debates about how Zeon should have won the OYW (as you can see, I'm of the belief that any peace achieved by their winning would be shortlived at best.)

Some of the comparisons here are purely for the sake of a point of reference. The 'Revil', for example, is actually going to be similar only in the sense of a comparable history.
Similarly, the characters inspired by the Zabis, I'm working on trying to distance more from their inspiration (although I have to confess, the family DID inspire one point working in now.)
With some retooling, the conflict between the older two siblings is now a bit more personal than simple ambition. (Given the difference in the character designs differed for the Zabis, it's safe to say they were likely born of different mothers. For this family, that's a matter that's not only in the open, but will become a source of contention. One of the biggest reasons for the conflict between the elder children is the older viewing their younger sibling as a lesser heir thanks to the different parentage.)
The youngest of the family has become very distanced from her 'role' in inspiration (now becoming something of a darker skew on the princess archetype Sunrise has become so taken with)

It's still got a ways to go, and, in the meantime, I've been working on trying to flesh out the protagonists more.
You can be assured, however, steps are being taken to try and downplay that sense of deja vu while still partially riffing on it.

[YazanGable]

Well...as promised, a few more notes on some of the protagonists this time...and I think to myself...I need to start naming these people.

Anyways...

Main character for the story...in something we've not seen done in a while, the lead has a strong interest in MS. Not so much combat, but something about the, for this timeline, recently developed mobile suits interests him. Nearing the end of the war, hoping to get a chance to pilot, he tried to enlist in the spacenoid military. His skills in piloting were good, but due to his lacking skills in terms of general testing and ground combat, he was rejected (given the spacenoids are prettymuch dominating the battlefield at this point, they can afford to be picky and choosy.)
With his first choice now shot down, he's taken to the next possible means of having any chance of piloting - acting as a courier for an independt MS development team.
Inevitably, he's the one chosen to deliver the Gundam to the Earth-side rebellion. Getting to Earth goes smoothly...when he arrives, hoever, he finds out the occupation forces were apparently tipped off about weapons being ferried through.

He manages to break through the blockade, but, in doing so, the carrier containing the Gundam is severely damaged. Having no means to carry it, he now has been thrown into his otherwise desired job as an MS pilot, as it's the only way to see the Gundam safely delivered.
Naturally, this now also means he has to improve on combat (allowing him to also break in the new weapons as he goes.)

Upon successful delivery, a complication arises. It seems the pilot the company was going to send to properly show off the Gundam was killed on his arrival to Earth. With no proper spokespilot, the main now finds himself directly assigned to the Gundam to assist the army and, in doing so, demonstrate the machine's full combat capability.

The other character currently figured out for the protags is somewhere between big brother/rival, if one would have to categorize, as well as taking a slight spin on the masked ace concept.
Acting in the sort of good-natured rival role (at least for the first arc) is an officer from the former Earth forces. When mobile suits were first introduced, he made his claim to fame twice. First for downing three of them in a fighter, and then later for successfully stealing one of the enemy's machines.
This had the downside of the fact this mission damaged his eyes (resulting in his having to wear the mask) and the upside that it made him the leader of the Earth force's first impromptu MS squadron (what MS they're using at this point are all stolen and many show signs of field repairs/modifications.)

Whether the mask also disguises a shadier hidden agenda remains to be seen. In the meantime, however, despite his relative mentoring, the lead distrusts him.

That's about it for now...hopefully will soon have enough built up to finally set up a thread for this.

[Mr. Hanekoma]

I had a thought earlier today, and figured this was as good a place as any to post it.

First off, how many people here actually have a good beta reader? I'm not saying you guys are posting a bunch of unedited rubbish (though we do get the occasional bit...), but I personally think if everyone all had someone beta reading, it would go a long way towards improving the forum.

A writer could post in this thread, or in a dedicated beta reader thread, asking for a beta reader, and somene else could volunteer to do it. The end goal would be to have everyone writing a story beta reading someone else's work. I've seen this done on another forum, and it really improved the quality and quantity of writers.

I'm positive this has been discussed before, but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks this is a good idea? I for one already volunteer myself to be anyone's beta reader. Just PM me if you're interested.

[NewLondenion]

I have three people slated to be beta readers for my material and all of whom I value their inputs and opinions. None are currently on this site but two are good friends and one is a relative.

I don't think having a devoted beta reader thread on here would work. I think people should just ask others on here or others they know to look over the stuff rather than using a thread to advertise it.

[ShadowCell]

As unedited rubbish myself, I resent that! =P

I know Fanfiction.net has a beta reader service where they can hook up willing readers with needy writers, but I've never used it, so I can't attest to its quality. At any rate, I agree with the above.

[Antares]

I've been publishing other stuff while my fanfic has been on development hiatus, meaning that I've written it when I've had the chance. CHASER used to be my beta-reader here at MAHQ, but I haven't seen him around for ages, which is a shame (not only because of my own selfish needs, of course). So I guess I will go forth un-proofread to the end of my GSP story too.