This question has been bouncing around inside my head for a while after finishing up the Zeta compilations. What if the Titans miraculously won the Gryps War? How would that change the landscape of the U.C. from that point forward?
More importantly, what would it have taken for the Titans to pull out a victory? I imagine that Char's Dakar Speech would've had to have been an utter failure so the Federation wouldn't pull its funding, for one.
What if the Titans Won?
If the Titans had won, we'd see the same conditions under Titan jurisdiction being spread to the whole EFF. Nothing else.
For them to have won they would have to widely expose a massive Zeonic conspiracy of the type that they were supposed to eliminate, which would have been difficult since they were actually supporting some Zeonic elements thamselves.
For them to have won they would have to widely expose a massive Zeonic conspiracy of the type that they were supposed to eliminate, which would have been difficult since they were actually supporting some Zeonic elements thamselves.
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Zero Revenge
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Well, if the Titans has won against the AEUG, they'd still have to end up fighting Axis Zeon in Double Zeta... right?
In all honesty, if the Titans did manage on winning (most likely if Scirocco did end up destroying the panels in the Colony Laser, preventing it from vaporizing the Titan Fleet) they would be so crippled from that final battle, that I can't see them putting up a good enough fight against Neo Zeon.
Too many variables to figure out though, unless you want to start working out specifics.
In all honesty, if the Titans did manage on winning (most likely if Scirocco did end up destroying the panels in the Colony Laser, preventing it from vaporizing the Titan Fleet) they would be so crippled from that final battle, that I can't see them putting up a good enough fight against Neo Zeon.
Too many variables to figure out though, unless you want to start working out specifics.
But the Titans would still have control over the Federal Forces proper, so they would have at least the same basic advantages as the AEUG after the fight. It also depends on whether or not Scirocco survives the fight in place of Camille. You may have seen the return of Char Aznable to Zeon a few years earlier, possibly joining with Haman and using her to defeat the Federal Forces/Titans fleet before betraying her once again.
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His Divine Shadow
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For all intents and purposes, the Titans already had control over the Federation's armed forces, especially after AEUG's raid on Dakar. It would end up being the Titans vs. Axis, and given the Titans' predictability in tactics and the matter of Axis having been studying the Titans' TACSOP for weeks before their attack on Gryps-2, I'd lay money on Axis coming out on top.
"If you ask me," said the little man to Shadow, "you're something of a monster. Am I right?"
"I'm American," said Shadow, "if that's what you mean." - Neil Gaiman
"I'm American," said Shadow, "if that's what you mean." - Neil Gaiman
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Dean_the_Young
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Ooh! A counterfactual! I love "what ifs," they're my main hobby.
First off, there's actually a rather nice thread in the archives that I started awhile back, touching on the same issue. Someone might want to bring it up, but Mark had some great insights in there.
First question, though, is "what's the point of divergence?" Where does that butterfly effect that can change everything else, start?
This is probably the most important question, because it has ramnifications. A POD late in the series, say in the last episode in the final battle, would be very different from Jerid not crashing into the police station (freeing Camille), and thus letting the Titan Mk II pilots in both gundams not only drive off the Arghama raiders, but perhaps even kill the entire team. If Char alone dies, the Lila's team would likely take out the Arghama, creating a whole nasty series of consequences for the AEUG as they lose their flagship, Commodore Blex, one of their best captains, their ace Char, and never get Kamille. See what I mean? Even a difference such as the Titans keeping control of Gryps is major.
That said, a Titan's victory doesn't have to be dystopic; one of the reoccruing plot points in the series was Jerid's race towards the top, and he was respected not only by his subordinates during his arc as a commander in space, but Lila and Maour also thought he would be a good leader. Maour's last newtype message to Jerid basically said that he would be a good leader of the Titans and would save the world (or something like that).
So say that the POD comes before Maour's death (or maybe the PoD IS Maour's death, and the lack thereof). Jerid doesn't sink entirely into vengeance with Maour's influence, and instead keeps climbing up to the top as a firm but still human figure. Then Jerid, the same Jerid who didn't kill Kamille in Von Braun in cold blood when he had the chance, would gain more power and more respect within the ranks. Jamitove, looking for an heir to become the ruler of his ideal military dictatorship, would see a much wanted alternative; Bask is far too rampant to expect to remain controlled, and Scirocco can not be trusted. Jerid, a young, healthy, and above all not psychotically racist, finds favor in Jamitov, who begins to condition him into an heir. By the end of the series, the Titans are in three factions struggling for control; the Scirocco faction (victorious in Zeta), the hardliner faction (headed by Bask, destroyed by Scirocco's faction in Zeta), and the Jerid faction, who's base of support would be the non-radical Titans and the leftovers from whichever other faction dies first (Sciroccians who don't want Bask to win, or hardliners who despise Scirocco). The introduction of a thrid group would take support from the other two, and would cause its own butterfly effects into the outcome of the powerstruggle.
The end of Zeta/beginning of ZZ would, at the least, quickly have a powerstruggle between whicher two (or all three) factions are alive by the end of Zeta, and much of the early series would be affected by it. (Just as Neo-Zeon broke into a civil war, much of the series would likely be Titans fighting to see who comes out on top).
What goes from here is more for conjecture and simply speculation, but if we hand-wave to the end and say that Jerid wins (say a more experienced/mature version of what he was with Maour), we can make some general conclusions about the nature of a Jerid rulership.
First of all, no official spacenoid persecution. Jerid stopped caring about that early in the series, and his first love (Lila) was a spacenoid. Double emphasis this point if the first POD in Zeta is Lila not dying. If you keep your head down and pay your taxes, you should be worse. Enforcers who try and oppress you are likely to be considered going against Jerid's commands, which brings us to our next point.
Second point: no open resistance to the Titan's rule, and to Jerid's rule. This holds as true to inside the Titans as outside; if you don't obey the rules, Jerid's authority comes down on you like a ton of bricks. This means if some lunar city tries to kick out the Titans or doesn't let Titan inspectors go wherever they please, the Titans take whatever measures they need to to do so. This also means that if Jerid commands "thou shalt not attack the spacenoids," and you attack the spacenoids, you're screwed.
Third point: solid leadership. Jerid is command, get used to it. He dies in office, with his boots on. Which is both good and bad. As long as Jerid is alive, you would never see the events of Char's Counter Attack in a Jerid-victorious Titans; the first rebellious colony would quickly have been stomped down on, and there would have been no dithering by leadership on how to deal with Char after the first half dozen meteor drops. It's bad for people who want Jerid out of the way sooner; they'll have to kill him first, which means getting past impressive security. (Jamitov was only assassinated once he went into a Neo-Zeon ship, after all. Jerid won't make that mistake.)
Fourth point: of enemies abroad. There is no safe distance from Jerid's armies that will make it safe to set up a potential invasion force. Jerid's Titans will likely go any distance to destroy the oppostition. That's not just the dark factories of a certain double dealing MS prodcer, that's not just the asteroid belt, but even Jupiter. Jupiter's isolation from the Earth Sphere will be quickly (and likely bloodily) ended the first time the Jupiter Energy card is attempted against Jerid. Some aftereffects of this will mean that, in order to enforce their presence in the outer system, inter-solar colonization will be expanded under Jerid. Zeon-remanent enclaves on Mars will be taken and garrisoned by the Titans, the Titan presence of rooting out holdouts and black colonies will spur asteroid belt colonization, and Jupiter will constantly be under the Titan's watch for any potential subversive acts, meaning a whole lot more "loyal" people will have to go there.
So a Jerid-victorious universe would be like this. Unless you insist on keeping your head up, the government isn't out to actively repress you. You are allowed to hate so long as you fear, but without the constant provocation of the early Titans, hate will eventually fade into permanent dislike. The threats of the next hundred years will be rooted out even before they can start. While that one rebellion by that new Neo-Zeon guy made things tense for awhile, with the threat of a Earth-sphere-wide rebellion against the government, nothing significant developed (though a few colonies became strangely quiet), and the Titan colony lasers were able to keep all the other asteroids from hitting the Earth. The Mars pirates were quickly silenced after one too many attacks on Titan energy supplies. Who knows what coul have developed in 60 years? Same with the Jupiter Energy monopoly, though that was a bit more obviously a problem child. Not even an attempted revolt by the Titan garrison commander succeeded; the Dictat simply ordered energy rationing for the extent of the emergency, launched a crash-course program for solar energy and alternative sources for Helium 3 on the moon, and by the time the Titan fleet had secured Jupiter and supplies were flowing regularly again, many of the colonies were already half-supplied by power generated within the Earth Sphere (those solar control sites manned and guarded by Titan enlistees from other sections).
Really the only question is about a successor, but then again, I hear the Dictat has been researching heavily into artificial intillegence and life-extension possibilities...
First off, there's actually a rather nice thread in the archives that I started awhile back, touching on the same issue. Someone might want to bring it up, but Mark had some great insights in there.
First question, though, is "what's the point of divergence?" Where does that butterfly effect that can change everything else, start?
This is probably the most important question, because it has ramnifications. A POD late in the series, say in the last episode in the final battle, would be very different from Jerid not crashing into the police station (freeing Camille), and thus letting the Titan Mk II pilots in both gundams not only drive off the Arghama raiders, but perhaps even kill the entire team. If Char alone dies, the Lila's team would likely take out the Arghama, creating a whole nasty series of consequences for the AEUG as they lose their flagship, Commodore Blex, one of their best captains, their ace Char, and never get Kamille. See what I mean? Even a difference such as the Titans keeping control of Gryps is major.
That said, a Titan's victory doesn't have to be dystopic; one of the reoccruing plot points in the series was Jerid's race towards the top, and he was respected not only by his subordinates during his arc as a commander in space, but Lila and Maour also thought he would be a good leader. Maour's last newtype message to Jerid basically said that he would be a good leader of the Titans and would save the world (or something like that).
So say that the POD comes before Maour's death (or maybe the PoD IS Maour's death, and the lack thereof). Jerid doesn't sink entirely into vengeance with Maour's influence, and instead keeps climbing up to the top as a firm but still human figure. Then Jerid, the same Jerid who didn't kill Kamille in Von Braun in cold blood when he had the chance, would gain more power and more respect within the ranks. Jamitove, looking for an heir to become the ruler of his ideal military dictatorship, would see a much wanted alternative; Bask is far too rampant to expect to remain controlled, and Scirocco can not be trusted. Jerid, a young, healthy, and above all not psychotically racist, finds favor in Jamitov, who begins to condition him into an heir. By the end of the series, the Titans are in three factions struggling for control; the Scirocco faction (victorious in Zeta), the hardliner faction (headed by Bask, destroyed by Scirocco's faction in Zeta), and the Jerid faction, who's base of support would be the non-radical Titans and the leftovers from whichever other faction dies first (Sciroccians who don't want Bask to win, or hardliners who despise Scirocco). The introduction of a thrid group would take support from the other two, and would cause its own butterfly effects into the outcome of the powerstruggle.
The end of Zeta/beginning of ZZ would, at the least, quickly have a powerstruggle between whicher two (or all three) factions are alive by the end of Zeta, and much of the early series would be affected by it. (Just as Neo-Zeon broke into a civil war, much of the series would likely be Titans fighting to see who comes out on top).
What goes from here is more for conjecture and simply speculation, but if we hand-wave to the end and say that Jerid wins (say a more experienced/mature version of what he was with Maour), we can make some general conclusions about the nature of a Jerid rulership.
First of all, no official spacenoid persecution. Jerid stopped caring about that early in the series, and his first love (Lila) was a spacenoid. Double emphasis this point if the first POD in Zeta is Lila not dying. If you keep your head down and pay your taxes, you should be worse. Enforcers who try and oppress you are likely to be considered going against Jerid's commands, which brings us to our next point.
Second point: no open resistance to the Titan's rule, and to Jerid's rule. This holds as true to inside the Titans as outside; if you don't obey the rules, Jerid's authority comes down on you like a ton of bricks. This means if some lunar city tries to kick out the Titans or doesn't let Titan inspectors go wherever they please, the Titans take whatever measures they need to to do so. This also means that if Jerid commands "thou shalt not attack the spacenoids," and you attack the spacenoids, you're screwed.
Third point: solid leadership. Jerid is command, get used to it. He dies in office, with his boots on. Which is both good and bad. As long as Jerid is alive, you would never see the events of Char's Counter Attack in a Jerid-victorious Titans; the first rebellious colony would quickly have been stomped down on, and there would have been no dithering by leadership on how to deal with Char after the first half dozen meteor drops. It's bad for people who want Jerid out of the way sooner; they'll have to kill him first, which means getting past impressive security. (Jamitov was only assassinated once he went into a Neo-Zeon ship, after all. Jerid won't make that mistake.)
Fourth point: of enemies abroad. There is no safe distance from Jerid's armies that will make it safe to set up a potential invasion force. Jerid's Titans will likely go any distance to destroy the oppostition. That's not just the dark factories of a certain double dealing MS prodcer, that's not just the asteroid belt, but even Jupiter. Jupiter's isolation from the Earth Sphere will be quickly (and likely bloodily) ended the first time the Jupiter Energy card is attempted against Jerid. Some aftereffects of this will mean that, in order to enforce their presence in the outer system, inter-solar colonization will be expanded under Jerid. Zeon-remanent enclaves on Mars will be taken and garrisoned by the Titans, the Titan presence of rooting out holdouts and black colonies will spur asteroid belt colonization, and Jupiter will constantly be under the Titan's watch for any potential subversive acts, meaning a whole lot more "loyal" people will have to go there.
So a Jerid-victorious universe would be like this. Unless you insist on keeping your head up, the government isn't out to actively repress you. You are allowed to hate so long as you fear, but without the constant provocation of the early Titans, hate will eventually fade into permanent dislike. The threats of the next hundred years will be rooted out even before they can start. While that one rebellion by that new Neo-Zeon guy made things tense for awhile, with the threat of a Earth-sphere-wide rebellion against the government, nothing significant developed (though a few colonies became strangely quiet), and the Titan colony lasers were able to keep all the other asteroids from hitting the Earth. The Mars pirates were quickly silenced after one too many attacks on Titan energy supplies. Who knows what coul have developed in 60 years? Same with the Jupiter Energy monopoly, though that was a bit more obviously a problem child. Not even an attempted revolt by the Titan garrison commander succeeded; the Dictat simply ordered energy rationing for the extent of the emergency, launched a crash-course program for solar energy and alternative sources for Helium 3 on the moon, and by the time the Titan fleet had secured Jupiter and supplies were flowing regularly again, many of the colonies were already half-supplied by power generated within the Earth Sphere (those solar control sites manned and guarded by Titan enlistees from other sections).
Really the only question is about a successor, but then again, I hear the Dictat has been researching heavily into artificial intillegence and life-extension possibilities...
I'm sorry this letter is so long, but I did not have time to make it shorter. -Mark Twain
Official Jerid Fanboy
Official Jerid Fanboy
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Arbiter GUNDAM
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Didn't they make the Pcychos and the Hazel?Wingnut wrote:Seeing as they never made any attempt to make any after the Mk. II, I doubt that.Zangetsu wrote:Unless his Titans have Gundams.
"Paladin Anderson, Executioner Anderson, Bayonet Anderson, Dust to Dust Anderson, Assassin Anderson, Regenerator Anderson, Killing Judge Anderson"-Millennium Soldiers
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Strike Zero
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If you haven't heard about the Advance of Zeta novel, you wouldn't have known about it. It's this thing here.Mendou wrote:Don't remember it.Zangetsu wrote:I don't know much about it but, I think it's in some type of Titan's Test Fleet.
Thundermuffin wrote:SETSUNA: There is no Tomino in this world.
I can't help but compare your "Jerid's Titans" to "Garma's Zeon" (or was it True/Legitimate Zeon?) in Gihren's Greed. You'd have a moderate, benevolent leader in charge of a rather extreme organization.
Honestly, though, if Bask/Pappy can be more subtle, it is possible to join with then manipulate Jerid from behind the scenes.
Honestly, though, if Bask/Pappy can be more subtle, it is possible to join with then manipulate Jerid from behind the scenes.
"So...what does the Uncertainty Principle really mean?"
"Sorry, I'm not sure."
"Sorry, I'm not sure."
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HalfDemonInuyasha
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reply
And profiles also state the Titans had one of the Gundam Mark III's too, along with the Gundam Mark IV and a Gundam Mark V. x_x
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
Jerid was a monster.That said, a Titan's victory doesn't have to be dystopic; one of the reoccruing plot points in the series was Jerid's race towards the top, and he was respected not only by his subordinates during his arc as a commander in space, but Lila and Maour also thought he would be a good leader. Maour's last newtype message to Jerid basically said that he would be a good leader of the Titans and would save the world (or something like that).
So say that the POD comes before Maour's death (or maybe the PoD IS Maour's death, and the lack thereof). Jerid doesn't sink entirely into vengeance with Maour's influence, and instead keeps climbing up to the top as a firm but still human figure.
Notice that he's advocating a colony gassing operation while Mouar is still alive. You give him too much credit in saying he only turned bad after Mouar died. There was a reason he was a Titan. He was a thug.
I never got the impression he loved Lila. He looked at her as more of a mentor. Even then, he seemed to be using her toward his own ends.First of all, no official spacenoid persecution. Jerid stopped caring about that early in the series, and his first love (Lila) was a spacenoid.
This coming from the colony gasser? Or the guy who didn't even blink when he heard his superiors were going to throw him and his comrades away like so much trash with the Jaburo bomb?This also means that if Jerid commands "thou shalt not attack the spacenoids," and you attack the spacenoids, you're screwed.
I can't possibly see Jerid being anything better than totally apathetic toward the colonies, likely turning a blind eye to any terrorism or prejudice the people might face. There might be a token investigation to maintain the appearance of efficiency, but they're just stupid Spacenoids so far as the Titans are concerned.
You think too highly of Jerid. He was a Titan. Zeta goes to rather insane lengths to remind us that the Titans are evil.
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