*sigh* Why do people assume that I'm bashing the whole series troll style whenever I point out actual
facts that don't go with the common good? I'll probably regret this, but here goes.
jam! wrote:I REALLY wish people would think of Gundam 00 as its own series and not compare to others but since it keeps coming up, I have to ask if you guys think it's a fair comparison to say that the Gundam Meisters are depending on technological superiority, trump cards and deus ex machinas to win the day especially when compared to the exploits of Gundam pilots in other series?
That's funny jam!, because I don't remember
you (or many other people for that matter) saying that about SEED or SEED Destiny when they aired. In fact, I recall you did a fair amount of comparing to past Gundam series, such as your so-called "character analysis" between Amuro Ray and Kira Yamato, so when did you decide to turnaround (which I'm coming to expect from you more as time goes by)?
If I remember correctly, we've seen that the Gundams are not the end-all be-all with the Exia being pinned down in mid-air as early as Episode 1 by simple Hellions.
The Exia was never pinned down in that fight; just because Setsuna didn't go all out and slaughter the Hellions en masse doesn't mean that he was under pressure. As well, none of the Hellions' weapons were able to so much as dent the Exia, so even without Lockon's support from ground level (which did help, but wasn't necessary) Setsuna wouldn't have had problems killing them, if eventually.
We've also seen that Tierens have interesting bombardment capabilities to which the Gundams' only defence is nigh-impenetrable GN armour. Alongwith some of the other gadgets that the Big 3 have revealed in their capture-attacks I'm reluctant to outright claim that the Gundam Meisters had superior technology besides the GN drive and GN armour.
You mean stuff like beam weaponry, automatic flight capability, superior speed and mobility, plus all the nifty little points like the Dynames' ability to snipe targets at far higher altitudes from ground level and the Virtue's ability to fire more buster shots than the Wing Zero could hope to manage
isn't superior technology? Also, the Gundams seem to be able to dodge the Tieren's smoothbore guns pretty well, as illustrated by Setsuna and others on more than one occasion, so that throws the bombardment capabilities out the window. Hell, during the battle in Sri Lanka, we see the Exia pulling virtual martial arts maneuvers when evading the much slower Tierens; you can't say that isn't superior technology when the machine can move with the same finesse and fluidity as a human being.
Afterall, we've got linear rifles from the Union that could offbalance even the Gundams (when the long range cannon from the Tieren didn't seem to but then Exia was mid-air when it was hit by the Flag); supersonic (?) flight that the Gundams don't seem to be able to keep up with; plasma blades which are able to effectively parry the GN blades and MS like the Enact and the Flag are capable of manuevrability like the Gundams with some tuning up.
The
experimental linear rifles throw them off balance but they don't leave a scratch, and without damaging capability that makes them useless weapons. Doesn't help that it was also stated that the particular shot you're referring to took a lot of power to fire and couldn't be done rapidly (see 00F chapter 2). Not sure on the supersonic flight bit, but at least the Kyrios has been shown to be able to break the sound barrier (as shown during the first Desert Arc episode). And then you have the plasma blades which to this point we've seen parry GN weapons, but what we haven't seen is them cutting through the Gundams' armor, so for all we know they could be useless as the linear rifles. As for the Enact and Flag, they're maneuverable, but we also haven't seen them perform the same break neck stunt work that the Gundams do regularly, aside from Graham's Overflag (and we know how much of a strain that puts on him even when he's a trained aviator). All in all, technological superiority definitely goes to the Gundams, as usual for Gundam series.
The only special weapons the Gundams had were the GN cannons really and the reason they were special was since the Big 3 didn't have the defence against such weapons.
Beam weapons are beam weapons no matter the universe, as are their advantages over the competition.
That said, I'll also say that unlike other Gundam pilots from other Gundam pilots, these Gundam Meisters are faced with carefully planned out military strategies on a huge scale and are almost always doing well until being hopelessly overwhelmed and then "relying on a deus-ex-machina".
So basically the attacks on the White Base, the massive offensives seen in Gundam Wing (you know, when entire army groups were deployed against even just one or two Gundams at a time like in this series?) and things like Operation Angel Down and all the EA/Orb offensives against the Minerva
weren't carefully planned out military strategies on a huge scale?
To be fair, we've never seen the enemy make such coordinated attacks as this on Gundams before and especially in the battle on the desert, any claims to technological superiority were diminished since the tactics reduced that advantage the Meisters may have had.
That one I'll agree with, since (as I suspected they would from the beginning) the Big Three played on the fact that the Meisters were human and were vulnerable to exhaustion and combat fatigue.
It could also be said that the Gundam Meisters purposefully withheld the Deus-ex-machinas. Tiera wanted to hide the Nadleeh, Dynames wasn't to reveal its longrange bombardment cannon, Kyrios wasn't to use its shield yet either.
Doesn't matter, fact is they brought them out whenever the cards were down and it was mostly (if not only) by the shock and revelation of these new gimmicks that they were able to overcome their opposition. Seriously, you're not going to convince me that without the Nadleeh or Hallelujah, Tiera and Allelujah would have been able to avoid being captured. As well, you're not going to convince me that without the Thrones the Gundams would be able to avoid capture again (a point that was made several times) or destruction without the GN Arms or Trans Am.
When playing RPGs and even playing cards, some of us know to hold your bluffs and keep the trump cards ready just in case and call it strategy so doesn't the same apply here?
And in a storyline, such a strategy is called a deus ex machina because it's an event or feature that was never alluded to before or in some cases not even known about, and when it happens it comes across with the suddeness and effect as an act from God.
Hm...I just don't think that if we must make the comparison that the Gundam Meisters should be seen as incompetent especially given how well and how quickly they adapted to combat against the GN-Xs. Did you notice that despite being outnumbered and usually working in pairs that the Meisters didn't take any critical damage and also worked in unison with unusual pairings: Allelujah & Lock on (that is until Lockon thought his over-sheild could block a GN beam saber).
You'll also notice that aside from Setsuna's lucky shot, Lockon taking out Patrick's shield arm, Tiera's initial buster blast that took the arms off two GN-Xs and the GN Arms appearence that they were unable to any particular damage to the GN-Xs themselves. Granted the Gundams did fairly well holding out toward the beginning, but you could see that they were fighting a losing battle and that if not for the GN Arms sudden appearence they would have been defeated. Unless you think that Setsuna and Allelujah alone could have been able to turn the battle fully around against 19 GN powered MS that were able to match the Gundams performance down to a T (no pun intended) without any additional support (since the two Gundams designed for that role were incapacitated).
), power of love/will, etc... Plus, for 18 episodes the already good superpower aces had to fight uphill most of the time, so their skill and experience would increase at a faster rate. So in the end, it's not that the Meisters are bad pilots, but the nonmeisters are just a bit better (maybe, Setsuna had flashes of skill even pre-Trans-am that would make me put him up there)
