The AEUG's legacy- was it all good?

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The AEUG's legacy- was it all good?

Post by Recon 5 » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:41 pm

We all know what a bunch of despotic losers the Titans (or at least the controlling few) were, but they were an Anti- Zeon group an we also know that Zeon didn't exactly consist of angels either. In fact, most if not all of the Zeonic factions in UC (and their descendants) have been distinctly anti- Earth.

My question is this: Did the AEUG inadvertently support any Zeon remnants by fighting the Titans? I know that the Titans had to go at some time or the other, but if they were indeed effectively removing Zeon forces/ influences (regardless of what they did on the side) then their removal would have helped Zeon remnants and other Zeon- like groups.

I know that a major part of the question would be if the Titans were indeed suppressing Zeon forces or if there were indeed any Zeon forces left to suppress. If there were indeed Zeon forces being suppressed, wouldn't the AEUG's struggle have helped them a lot? Char himself certainly didn't seem to have been the worst for it, and we all know what his Axis did in CCA.

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Post by Imperial » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:45 pm

I can see where you're coming from. In fact, the ending of Zeta Gundam seems to bear you out. The AEUG has succeeded in crushing the Titans at the expense of leaving the Earth Sphere exhausted and vulnerable to Haman's ambitions.

But it's not that simple. The Titans were more than willing to work with Axis, as demonstrated in all the wheeling and dealing that goes on over the course of the show. By the time 0087 rolls around, the Titans no longer care about suppressing Zeon. They're in it to sustain their own power. Keep in mind that the AEUG was made up of former EFF soldiers. They're more likely to look out for the Earth's best interests than Axis, yet the Titans were more than willing to deal with them for the sake of destroying the AEUG. In the end, the world was better off without them. Axis' return was simply bad timing.
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Post by auriga » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:50 pm

Imperial has a point. The Titans weren't simply about being anti-Zeon; if that were simply the case, things would turn out much differently. But for the anti-Zeon faction that they claim to be, they sure turned out to be huge hypocrites for wanting to work with Haman just to put an end to the AEUG (and who knows what other *good* stuff they could've achieved from that?).

It was also mentioned during an AoZ discussion that the AEUG weren't too hot about including Zeon remnants in their ranks, either, as they were well aware of the attrocities Zeon committed during the OYW.

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Post by Recon 5 » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:31 pm

So why didn't the AEUG do anything about Zeon? At the very least some anti- Zeon work of their own might have netted them info about possible collaboration between the Titans and Zeon, and that would subsequently have given them massive grassroots support against the Titans.

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Post by turkishproverb » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:47 pm

Recon 5 wrote:So why didn't the AEUG do anything about Zeon? At the very least some anti- Zeon work of their own might have netted them info about possible collaboration between the Titans and Zeon, and that would subsequently have given them massive grassroots support against the Titans.
They were a little desperate for allies. Read AOZ if you want proof.
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Post by Imperial » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:22 pm

Recon 5 wrote:So why didn't the AEUG do anything about Zeon? At the very least some anti- Zeon work of their own might have netted them info about possible collaboration between the Titans and Zeon, and that would subsequently have given them massive grassroots support against the Titans.
AEUG did do some things about Zeon. They wound up taking the fight to the Zeeks, such as seizing Gryps 2. Besides, the AEUG already had a lot of good PR as seen in the Dakar speech and foiling colony gassings and the like. Everyone knew the Titans were corrupt. Saying they were working with Zeon was simply beating a dead horse.

Even during the Neo Zeon War, the AEUG continued to resist Neo Zeon even if they were largely ineffectual. There was an attack on Axis that occurred off-screen during ZZ that has been subsequently fleshed out in supplemental materials. The AEUG also rebuilt its fleet with the purpose of locking horns with Neo Zeon, but that became a moot point by the time the civil war was over.
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Post by auriga » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:25 pm

Because Zeon wasn't the threat at that time, and neither was Neo-Zeon until the Gryps War was over. It wasn't as if someone was actually pulling off an Operation Stardust redux, right?
At the very least some anti- Zeon work of their own might have netted them info about possible collaboration between the Titans and Zeon
The Titans-Axis collaboration came late in the Gryps war, and the AEUG was well aware of it to the point that they too wanted Axis on their side.

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Post by toysdream » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:53 pm

As auriga notes, there simply weren't a lot of Zeons around for anyone to fight. (Of the few Zeon remnants left in the Earth Sphere, most seem to have been laying low until Haman's forces contacted them in the middle of Gundam ZZ.)

I suppose this actually presented a bit of a problem for the Titans, as a Zeon-hunting organization with no Zeons to hunt. Even more so given that Jamitov's master plan seems to have been to drum up a new global war so that he could turn the Federation into a military dictatorship and get rid of the worthless Earthnoid elites. Instead, Jamitov just abused the spacenoid population until a new resistance movement emerged, allowing him to scare the Federation government with the specter of the terrorist AEUG.

Does that mean the AEUG were playing into Jamitov's hands? In a sense, I suppose so, and the first portion of Zeta Gundam certainly makes it look that way. But if the AEUG hadn't challenged the Titans, Jamitov would have kept provoking the spacenoids until somebody else did, and the AEUG had the two merits of 1) being generally good people and 2) actually defeating the Titans. One trembles to think what would have happened if Axis had shown up before the AEUG took action, and Haman became the de facto leader of the anti-Titans resistance.

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Post by mcred23 » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:39 am

Imperial wrote:
Recon 5 wrote:So why didn't the AEUG do anything about Zeon? At the very least some anti- Zeon work of their own might have netted them info about possible collaboration between the Titans and Zeon, and that would subsequently have given them massive grassroots support against the Titans.
AEUG did do some things about Zeon. They wound up taking the fight to the Zeeks, such as seizing Gryps 2.
Add lets not forget the AEUG, at it's peak, had about 30 combat ships. They were barely able to fight the Titans (Who were backed by the reluctant EFSF and the more-than-willing-to-help Republic Of Zeons) for most of the war, and I doubt they could have lasted if the "two front" war (For lack of a better term) against both the Titans and Axis started earlier and/or went on longer than it did.
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Post by Koshernova » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:43 am

Interestingly, the point I would make is that the Titans' persecution of Zeons smacks of a sort of McCarthyist persecution of communists. Just like in the real world there is a distinction between a Marxist and someone who advocates Stalin-like dictatorship; in the Universal Century there is a demarcation between those who advocate Zeon Daikun's ideals (Zeonists?) and those who support the idea of the Principality of Zeon as a Zabi dictatorship. The latter are the ones who actually may be dangerous, but because of them, the former are persecuted as well.

This is why I believe the AEUG leadership, aside from desperation, were willing to open talks with Axis. Of course, part of it was power play, trying to offset the Titans. Yet it would make sense for them to think that the AEUG, as a more spacenoid-friendly group that wasn't anti-Zeon per se, would have a better chance to be picked up on their proposal by Axis. Specially compared to the Titans.

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Post by Dean_the_Young » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:40 am

toysdream wrote:
Does that mean the AEUG were playing into Jamitov's hands? In a sense, I suppose so, and the first portion of Zeta Gundam certainly makes it look that way. But if the AEUG hadn't challenged the Titans, Jamitov would have kept provoking the spacenoids until somebody else did, and the AEUG had the two merits of 1) being generally good people and 2) actually defeating the Titans. One trembles to think what would have happened if Axis had shown up before the AEUG took action, and Haman became the de facto leader of the anti-Titans resistance.

-- Mark
Hm.

On one hand, she would be getting a lot of hidden political support.

On the other, the Titans would already almost have the solar ray constructed, not be forced by necessity to allow Haman a chance to cripple it/see it seized by AEUG, and possibly the Titans would be mostly transitioned over to their next main-suit, be it the Marasai or the Barzam. Granted, that means that the AEUG's corporate support would have time to put out their own high-quality suit for the Haman Faction, but I would think that the military balance of all of Earth, the EF government/space forces, and the Solar Ray would see Haman lose after a nasty struggle.


At which point, the military dictatorship would emerge in the aftermath of the wasted economy, as per plan. Or something like that.
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Post by toysdream » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:07 pm

Now that I think about it, the what-if "Axis before AEUG" scenario is kind of interesting. Somebody was recently wondering why Axis headed back to the Earth Sphere when it did, and I suppose it's quite possible that Haman - who seems to be very well-informed about the situation in the Earth Sphere - saw an opportunity to become the champion of the spacenoid cause in the coming conflict. Once she arrives, Haman definitely seems to favor an alliance with the AEUG, and since her "agent" Char is already in place there she may have assumed that the merger would be virtually automatic.

So in a situation where the AEUG, for whatever reason, takes six months or so longer to go into action, it's quite possible that Axis would have become the standard bearer. Anaheim, which is eager for a money-making conflict, would surely have dumped the timid AEUG in favor of the aggressive Axis. Without the AEUG as an excuse the Titans wouldn't be as far along in their R&D efforts, the construction of the Colony Laser, or their takeover of the regular Federation Forces, but they'd have the undivided support of the Federation once an honest-to-goodness Zeon invasion was underway.

And the AEUG? Cut off by Anaheim, repulsed by the Zeons, and in Char's case nursing a major grudge against Haman herself, it's possible that they'd sit out the conflict entirely. Or perhaps they'd disband, with individual members joining whoever they saw as the lesser of the two evils. I can imagine Char and Amuro meeting in battle again, one fighting for the Titans and the other for Axis, but I can't say who would be on which side...

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Post by Dean_the_Young » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:01 pm

toysdream wrote:Now that I think about it, the what-if "Axis before AEUG" scenario is kind of interesting. Somebody was recently wondering why Axis headed back to the Earth Sphere when it did,
...
-raises hand meekly-
and I suppose it's quite possible that Haman - who seems to be very well-informed about the situation in the Earth Sphere - saw an opportunity to become the champion of the spacenoid cause in the coming conflict. Once she arrives, Haman definitely seems to favor an alliance with the AEUG, and since her "agent" Char is already in place there she may have assumed that the merger would be virtually automatic.
A question to that, though; how much support on the AEUG side was there for an alliance with Axis, really? I always saw it as an alliance of pure necessity, with Katz (loudly) voicing the concerns and thoughts of a number of the crew.

Not saying your analysis was wrong, but how much basis was there on Haman's part?
So in a situation where the AEUG, for whatever reason, takes six months or so longer to go into action, it's quite possible that Axis would have become the standard bearer. Anaheim, which is eager for a money-making conflict, would surely have dumped the timid AEUG in favor of the aggressive Axis.
"Surely"? I know Anaheim was extremely mercenary, and that they sold object to all factions, but wasn't one of the reasons they supported the AEUG because they thought the Titans would be bad for buisness? And would Axis be any better, especially if both the Titans and Axis know that Anaheim supplies weapons to the other side?
Without the AEUG as an excuse the Titans wouldn't be as far along in their R&D efforts, the construction of the Colony Laser, or their takeover of the regular Federation Forces, but they'd have the undivided support of the Federation once an honest-to-goodness Zeon invasion was underway.
Wouldn't the Titans have seen Axis depart from the Asteroid Belt, and prepare accordingly? I know that Char had some photos rather early in the series of Axis moving out, though I don't know when it came to the Titans' attention. But while I can see the war-accelerated research being behind, several monthes warning of the return of Zeon would seem like ample incintive and time to complete the Colony Laser (for defense), take control of the EFSF (for leadership and control purposes), and so on.
And the AEUG? Cut off by Anaheim, repulsed by the Zeons, and in Char's case nursing a major grudge against Haman herself, it's possible that they'd sit out the conflict entirely. Or perhaps they'd disband, with individual members joining whoever they saw as the lesser of the two evils. I can imagine Char and Amuro meeting in battle again, one fighting for the Titans and the other for Axis, but I can't say who would be on which side...

-- Mark
Interesting thoughts, Mark.
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Post by toysdream » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:54 pm

Dean_the_Young wrote:A question to that, though; how much support on the AEUG side was there for an alliance with Axis, really? I always saw it as an alliance of pure necessity, with Katz (loudly) voicing the concerns and thoughts of a number of the crew.
It's hard to say, since Char derails the negotiations almost immediately. Perhaps, like the Jaburo attack, this is a case where Anaheim and the AEUG have a difference of opinion. In cases like that, Anaheim generally wins.
Not saying your analysis was wrong, but how much basis was there on Haman's part?
Haman definitely seems to favor the AEUG as partners; she keeps trying to strike a deal with them even after she's made one with Scirocco, and she never even tries to negotiate with Jamitov in earnest.
"Surely"? I know Anaheim was extremely mercenary, and that they sold object to all factions, but wasn't one of the reasons they supported the AEUG because they thought the Titans would be bad for buisness?
Not necessarily. In Tomino's Zeta novels, there's a conversation between Char and Blex before the Argama sets sail, in which Char makes it very clear what he thinks of Anaheim - they're merchants of death, who are only supporting the AEUG because war is good for their business. The Jaburo attack, which Char and the AEUG oppose and Anaheim insists on, serves to expand the war to Earth and escalate the conflict further. (Incidentally, the profile of the Nemo III from the old Zeta MSV series mentions that relations between Anaheim and the AEUG worsened after Blex's death, which supports the notion that Blex was the main one holding that relationship together.)

When Axis returns to the Earth Sphere, it's Anaheim that orders the Argama to go and meet them, and they even send Wong Lee along to supervise the negotiations. Remember that Anaheim has a lot of former Zeons on its staff, that it aided the Delaz Fleet, and that it's already benefited from its relationship with Axis (having obtained the Gundarium Gamma alloy from Axis by way of Char). The animation suggests that it's Anaheim, not the AEUG, that's pushing for an alliance with Axis, and everything we learn from the novels and background materials reinforces that impression.

For Char, on the other hand, his distrust of Anaheim and his disgust for Haman align pretty conveniently and give him plenty of reason to sabotage the negotations. :-)
Wouldn't the Titans have seen Axis depart from the Asteroid Belt, and prepare accordingly?
They had as much warning as the AEUG, and didn't do anything about it. For that matter, even when Axis shows up Jamitov and Bask don't bother to deal with it themselves, and the Zeta movies go so far as to suggest that Scirocco's initial meeting with Haman is completely unauthorized. Perhaps the Titans are preoccupied with the AEUG, or perhaps Jamitov simply underestimates what Axis is capable of.

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Post by turkishproverb » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:46 pm

toysdream wrote:Now that I think about it, the what-if "Axis before AEUG" scenario is kind of interesting. Somebody was recently wondering why Axis headed back to the Earth Sphere when it did, and I suppose it's quite possible that Haman - who seems to be very well-informed about the situation in the Earth Sphere - saw an opportunity to become the champion of the spacenoid cause in the coming conflict. Once she arrives, Haman definitely seems to favor an alliance with the AEUG, and since her "agent" Char is already in place there she may have assumed that the merger would be virtually automatic.

So in a situation where the AEUG, for whatever reason, takes six months or so longer to go into action, it's quite possible that Axis would have become the standard bearer. Anaheim, which is eager for a money-making conflict, would surely have dumped the timid AEUG in favor of the aggressive Axis. Without the AEUG as an excuse the Titans wouldn't be as far along in their R&D efforts, the construction of the Colony Laser, or their takeover of the regular Federation Forces, but they'd have the undivided support of the Federation once an honest-to-goodness Zeon invasion was underway.

And the AEUG? Cut off by Anaheim, repulsed by the Zeons, and in Char's case nursing a major grudge against Haman herself, it's possible that they'd sit out the conflict entirely. Or perhaps they'd disband, with individual members joining whoever they saw as the lesser of the two evils. I can imagine Char and Amuro meeting in battle again, one fighting for the Titans and the other for Axis, but I can't say who would be on which side...

-- Mark

Umm...

Wow.

Suddenly I want you writing alternate universe comics under agreement with/license from Bandai. 8) (I know I know, not how it works. But seriously, THAT was a fun theory)

Good logic there. I can see the arguments, honestly. Especially given that the Titans were known for accepting unusual people given their claims of earthnoid supremacy.
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Post by toysdream » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:01 pm

turkishproverb wrote:Good logic there. I can see the arguments, honestly. Especially given that the Titans were known for accepting unusual people given their claims of earthnoid supremacy.
Perhaps I'm just dying to resurrect that memorable insult from Kondo's old "Side Story of Zeta" comic: "Char Aznable, Titans dog!!"

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Post by Imperial » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:14 pm

It's a fascinating read, Mark.

I'm not quite sure I agree that Anaheim would choose to ignore the AEUG outright, as it would be another source of income, but it's something of a moot point. With Haman becoming the rallying point of the Spacenoid cause, the AEUG would likely be assimilated into Neo Zeon by necessity if nothing else. I'm sure plenty of AEUG memebers wouldn't like it--enough that some might go back to the Federation and the Titans out of lingering anger for the One Year War, as you suggested.

I also doubt the lack of a strong AEUG would impede the Titanic rise to power all that much. After all, the Gryps raid was their first real showing as a military unit, right? The whole point of the attack was to make the big wigs stand up and take notice of a very real problem that had gone ignored for too long. (At least, that's the understanding I got from your topic about the Zeta novels.) Up until then, the Titans seemed to have amassed all their power through Jamitov's political maneuvering and Bask's fearmongering.

Still, it is fun to think where our old friends would end up. Char has been noted as having a burning hatred for both the oppressive Earthnoid elites as represented in the Titans and the very Zabi dictatorship Haman hopes to revive that he spent so much time trying to destroy. Amuro, though, is less of a wild card. He may have lived in space for some time and is under intense scrutiny, but I think all the Amuro-as-a-Titan fanart would come to pass if he had to make a choice, if for no other reason than One Year War memories. Still, I don't think that's set in stone. He's just as likely to throw up his hands in disgust and shun both sides while living it up in his mansion.
Perhaps I'm just dying to resurrect that memorable insult from Kondo's old "Side Story of Zeta" comic: "Char Aznable, Titans dog!!"

-- Mark
Is that the really whacked out one where Char is with the Titans, Camille pilots an Asshimar, the mobile suit roster for both sides is radically different, and the Gei Drei pops up?
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Post by toysdream » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:37 pm

Imperial wrote:I also doubt the lack of a strong AEUG would impede the Titanic rise to power all that much. After all, the Gryps raid was their first real showing as a military unit, right? The whole point of the attack was to make the big wigs stand up and take notice of a very real problem that had gone ignored for too long. (At least, that's the understanding I got from your topic about the Zeta novels.) Up until then, the Titans seemed to have amassed all their power through Jamitov's political maneuvering and Bask's fearmongering.
Right, but as of Zeta Gundam episode 1 it hasn't gotten them very far. For all the pomp and circumstance that accompanies the formation of the Titans in U.C. 0083, as of early 0087 they're still getting their act together, and they seem to have only a single battle-ready ship at their disposal. But after the AEUG attack on Jaburo, which amounts to a declaration of war on the Earth Federation and results in the nuclear destruction of the former Federation HQ, the Titans' power grows by leaps and bounds.

In this case, it seems that the AEUG - on Anaheim's orders - has played right into Jamitov's hands. The plan favored by the AEUG, which was to take their newly captured fleet back to Gryps and take out the Titans in one fell swoop, might well have finished them off for good. Instead the war continues and escalates, which works out nicely for both the Titans and Anaheim but pretty badly for everybody else.
Is that the really whacked out one where Char is with the Titans, Camille pilots an Asshimar, the mobile suit roster for both sides is radically different, and the Gei Drei pops up?
Yep. And Kondo didn't even get around to exploring some of the other possibilities of that scenario, like a Char/Scirocco teamup. :-)

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Post by Imperial » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:15 pm

Yep. And Kondo didn't even get around to exploring some of the other possibilities of that scenario, like a Char/Scirocco teamup.
Is that to say it was cancelled or did he just never opt for something that surreal?

Still, it's fun to wonder what would have made Char join the Titans (more of his tried-and-true destroy-from-within strategy?) or why the AEUG is fielding Marasais and Hi-Zacks or what the Gei Drei is capable of...just to name a few of the many questions I have buzzing around my brain.

I hate to take this thread off-topic, but I'm dying to know more about what looks to be the most interesting take on Zeta since...well, ever. Information on it is woefully scarce.
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Post by turkishproverb » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:02 pm

toysdream wrote:
Is that the really whacked out one where Char is with the Titans, Camille pilots an Asshimar, the mobile suit roster for both sides is radically different, and the Gei Drei pops up?
Yep. And Kondo didn't even get around to exploring some of the other possibilities of that scenario, like a Char/Scirocco teamup. :-)

-- Mark
Was that wan ever collected, or did he do some other Zeta manga?
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