The Official Macross Frontier Thread

[gundamtype0]

I've been wondering about this for awhile regarding Macross Frontier. I thought that the VF-19s were supposed to replace the VF-11s and VF-17s as the main fighter of the UN Spacey. What happened? Its only been about two decades since project super nova and now that VF-171s are the main fighters. Did they mothball the VF-19 and VF-22 designs?

[MrMarch]

No in-universe explanation has been given why the VF-19 and VF-22 don't appear in Macross Frontier. However, Kawamori has said that for production reasons, the VF-19 was too similar in appearance to the "hero" Valkyrie of Macross Frontier (the VF-25) and thus the choice was made to go with a redesigned VF-17 as a way to distinctly separate the two types of fighters (old versus new).

[gundamtype0]

Now its makes some sense. I'm still hoping that either the military or the private military contractor in Macros Frontier will have some VF-22s for special forces purposes.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Ironic too since the planes the VF-171s are based on are now obsolete themselves.

[gundamtype0]

The updated VF-171s give off the look of a heavy weapon systems fighter since the design itself looks rather bulky, while the VF-19, VF-22, and VF-25 looks extremely aerodynamic even with FAST packs equipped.

[Destiny_Gundam]

This conversation should be moved to the mecha thread.

[Isamu Alva Dyson]

I have to say that two things have really impressed me about this series. Firstly, pacing has been great thus far, drawing us into the story, introducing the characters, telling us a little more about the important ones... and tying it together with the action and music we've come to enjoy in Macross. Secondly, the fight choreography is magnificent. If computer graphics means no more stock footage battles, I'm all for it, because I get the sense that we're not going to see the same fight twice in this series.

I really enjoy the fact that Alto seems to be driven to help by both noble and more personal (some would say selfish) reasons; it seems more realistic, in a sense, than either a purely idealistic person deciding to fight solely because the cause is right, or the more irritating "pacifist in a warlord's body." In a way, he exemplifies the concept of a good military contractor in that they want to help, but they also want to get paid. I think the whole idea of having military contractors be the good guys, especially given current affairs in Iraq, was a really good idea.

[MrMarch]

Can't say I disagree. The show is clipping along at a very satisfying pace and the animation has yet to produce a bad episode. I've never considered the possibility that CG would help bring about the end of recycled footage in anime, but I certainly hope you're right. What a truly fine accomplishment for CGI that would be!

In my opinion, I'm waiting for more before I claim allegory in Macross Frontier. I acknowledge the possibility, but I don't feel there's enough said about the SMS, the NUNS and the old UN Spacy as yet. The whole history might develop differently than at first glance. Plus, I find allegory is too often suggested where it does not exist. I'm fine either way, but I'm reserving judgment for now.

[Isamu Alva Dyson]

In my opinion, I'm waiting for more before I claim allegory in Macross Frontier. I acknowledge the possibility, but I don't feel there's enough said about the SMS, the NUNS and the old UN Spacy as yet. The whole history might develop differently than at first glance. Plus, I find allegory is too often suggested where it does not exist. I'm fine either way, but I'm reserving judgment for now.

As usual, I enjoy reading to what you have to say, Mr. March. I absolutely agree with you that any thought of "OMG Kawamori likes PMCs this is totally about Iraq!!! WHAT DOES IT MEAN?" is inappropriate. I meant that more on a personal level, the juxtaposition of the idea of the noble mercenary versus what one reads about companies like Blackwater and Halliburton is thought-provoking.

As a political theory student, it raises all sorts of questions, like whether the state abandons its sovereign power by relying so much on hired soldiers, or whether that even applies in the context of a giant fleet of ships. As someone who loves history, the memory of the Roman Empire's downfall being at least in part based upon the overreliance on foreign mercenaries makes me question Spacy's future. It will be interesting to see the interplay between SMS and the Frontier government, as they seem somewhat shady, fairly inept, (and creepy, in the case of Leon... that scene when he made out with the president's daughter made my skin crawl).

[MrMarch]

Oh man, I could definitely go off on a tangent with you about that. I admit, I haven't thought about the ramifications of private military groups like Blackwater in a broader political context. However, I've often criticized policy of foreign workers and foreign industry as a serious national security vulnerability. A country relying heavily upon foreign work forces and manufacturing could have it's economy brought to it's knees without an enemy force ever setting foot on domestic soil.

Ahem, anyway, back to Macross Frontier

I love the subtle machinations going on behind the scenes. Leon Mishima is up to something. He's banging the President's daughter, Katherine Glass, and he knows far too much for my comfort. Plus, it looks like Kathy is starting to wise to Leon's activities. Kathy saw something was going on at the Miss Macross Frontier contest and previously took note that Leon was looking over Ranka's file in episode 2 (or was it 3?) with intense interest. THere's going to be something big going down with Leon. I only hope Kathy gets it together before that happens or she might end up getting killed.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I don't think it's that odd that the SMS is better than the UN Spacey. This is often the case in a lot of animes. Military pilots are shown as strictly obediant dogs, following whatever order their commander gives. As such, they can't respond to unknown enemies such as the Vajra, because their superiors usually can't hand down effective orders fast enough. When the pilot needs to think on his own, he's completely lost.

A group of ragtag pilots such as SMS do better because they're far more flexable. Their orders are more general, and they're more prone to disobey orders to get the job done as well. Where a military pilot might go "I don't know what to do! Give me orders!", your standard hotshot pilot will go "Ok, let's see if this works!"

This is why your accidental mecha pilot does better than trained soldiers. The accidental pilot hasn't been trained to blindly follow orders. They also haven't been trained that "This is the way you're supposed to fight!", so they do stuff not written in 'the book.'

Remember I'm saying this in the context of anime, not reality.

[manwiththemachinegun]

"I meant that more on a personal level, the juxtaposition of the idea of the noble mercenary versus what one reads about companies like Blackwater and Halliburton is thought-provoking."

So now we're judging all mercenaries in a group or company as bad because some are? It sounds like the same thing in reverse that you're arguing for why SMS is good.

They chose Private Military Contractors, Private Military Company, Civilian Military Provider what have you because its a modern euphemism for mercenary. And we've had anime pilot mercenaries since Area 88.

Face it, mercenaries = cool points.

[Isamu Alva Dyson]

So now we're judging all mercenaries in a group or company as bad because some are? It sounds like the same thing in reverse that you're arguing for why SMS is good.

They chose Private Military Contractors, Private Military Company, Civilian Military Provider what have you because its a modern euphemism for mercenary. And we've had anime pilot mercenaries since Area 88.

Face it, mercenaries = cool points.

Hmm... I certainly don't know if WE'RE judging all mercenaries based upon the actions of some. And that certainly wasn't what I meant. The thrust of what I was saying was that the popular conception of modern military contractors has been tarnished by the abuses of, as you note, some members of those groups, and the choice to make mercenaries the heroes of Macross was thus an interesting one based upon this context. Other recent depictions of Private Military Companies, such as in Gundam 00, have portrayed mercenaries as avaricious and bloodthirsty villains, perhaps adapting to this modern disapproval of contractors. I don't wish to delve into my own personal politics, but I'm not the only person in the world who may have a sense that mercenaries are not always "heroes for hire," and that the widespread usage of these groups is an interesting and perhaps problematic development in modern warfare. At any rate, manwithmachinegun, I hope you recognize that my thought process was a little more nuanced than "Oh man all PMCs are evil and only like killing lots of people and getting paid," because that wasn't what I said.

It's the nature of the relationship between the government and regular space forces and SMS that I think could be a very interesting subplot, though the writing so far has tended towards a more personal drama that is equally interesting.

As to giving mercenaries cool points, my introduction to mecha was through Mechwarriors 2: Mercenaries, so I won't argue with you there.

[Aegis]

So I've finally caught up with everyone else and just managed to watch episode 4. Of all main characters who have found themselves in a valkyrie's seat, Alto truly impresses me the most. I give them credit for being able to make Alto a very skilled pilot through his training, yet somehow still manage to make him reasonable. It was impressive watching him take down one of the Queadluun-Rau battle suits, and then manage to fight off Klan Klein for as long as he did. Knowing that Mikhail jacked up the difficulty settings in the simulator, complete with 25 different signs that reads 'I'm Dead', thus 25 laps in Ex-Gear armour was hilarious. That, and Ozma kicking Alto in the rear for missing one shot was funny.

I'm also liking the added Macross fanservice, more specifically the latest rendition of My Boyfriend's a Pilot. I just like Ranka more and more; she's genuinely cute without all the nausea that goes with it, and she's just such a pleasant personality. As shy as she may be, to enter the Miss Macross pageant knowing how... uh... outclassed she was compared to the other women took alot of courage to do so (even if it is buoyed by Alto's encouragement).

Maybe it's just me, but the only sore point of the episode was really when Klan Klein stepped out of her battlesuit. Does the colouring on her face seem a little on the plastic or flat side? Compared to her hyperactive miclone form, something doesn't seem right from the animation there.

Oh, and Alto looks hideous in makeup. @_@

[manwiththemachinegun]

"I don't wish to delve into my own personal politics, but I'm not the only person in the world who may have a sense that mercenaries are not always "heroes for hire," and that the widespread usage of these groups is an interesting and perhaps problematic development in modern warfare."

Fair enough, I was just clarifying. Your thoughts are your own

The thing is though, killing for money is the world's second oldest profession. I don't care what kind of U.N. resolution you pass (In 'theory' using mercenaries is illegal hyuk hyuk), it will find a way to come back. The modern incarnation happens to be PMCs. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a mercenary, its better than being a soldier in some aspects since you get to choose who you're fighting *for*. Obviously, one can still be an evil jerk off though, even if the cause is just.

I do get tired though from endless bashing of PMCs by people who know really nothing about the history of mercenaries (<-Went to college with morons LOLZ!). There have been plenty of interesting groups, good and bad throughout history and that's not going away anytime soon.

I think in Macross Frontier the issue has been handled tastefully thus far and look forward to a deeper examination the issue.

[MrMarch]

I don't think it's that odd that the SMS is better than the UN Spacey. This is often the case in a lot of animes. Military pilots are shown as strictly obediant dogs, following whatever order their commander gives. As such, they can't respond to unknown enemies such as the Vajra, because their superiors usually can't hand down effective orders fast enough. When the pilot needs to think on his own, he's completely lost.

Remember I'm saying this in the context of anime, not reality.

Hehehe, glad you added that caveat at the end of your post

I suppose your theory about the SMS isn't that bad, within the context of anime. Personally, I'm hoping there's a little bit more to it than that in Macross Frontier. I'd like to know a bit more about how the SMS became such a pivitol group in the current socio-political makeup of the UNG, why they've been given so much new weaponry and why the UN Spacy/New UN Spacy degraded the way it did*. Granted, I'm willing to accept that perhaps the current way-of-things in the UNG is not terribly important to the plot of Macross Frontier, but I do hope they weave it in there somehow.

*Actually, I wonder if the sad state of the UNS/NUNS could be tied to the Protodeviln War in Macross 7. That show did a good job making the UN Spacy military seem completely incompetent and utterly helpless, dependent upon a rock band to defeat the enemy.

[Destiny_Gundam]

It could be that the UN goverment is simply too old and has fallen into stagnation, like the Federation government in later UC series. Or perhaps the higher ups have taken the stance of "Eh, we're safe here on Earth. Who cares what happens to some fleet out in the middle of nowhere. We have plenty of other fleets."

Or, the more obvious reason I just thought of: SMS has known about the Vajra for 11 years. They've had time to prepare themselves for their inevitable return. If any NUN officers knew about the Vajra (as President Glass did), they probably kept it top secret from everyone else, so their soldiers were caught off guard.

On a completely unrelated note, it seems two of Sheryl's songs have been leaked. Diamond Crevasse, the ending song (which I'm rather fond of), and Iteza Gogo Kuji Don't be late, the song she sang in her concert.

[manwiththemachinegun]

"Actually, I wonder if the sad state of the UNS/NUNS could be tied to the Protodeviln War in Macross 7. That show did a good job making the UN Spacy military seem completely incompetent and utterly helpless, dependent upon a rock band to defeat the enemy."

I like to think of it as the same problem the U.S. faced in Vietnam with fighter pilots, over dependence on a certain weapon. In their case, missiles, in this case, the Minmei defense. Think about it, if you're constantly training your pilots to engage an enemy already disorganized by culture, there's got to be a big drop in performance. If the U.N. isn't spending the bucks on pilot training, it doesn't matter how great the machines are, losses are going to be high.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I like to think of it as the same problem the U.S. faced in Vietnam with fighter pilots, over dependence on a certain weapon. In their case, missiles, in this case, the Minmei defense. Think about it, if you're constantly training your pilots to engage an enemy already disorganized by culture, there's got to be a big drop in performance. If the U.N. isn't spending the bucks on pilot training, it doesn't matter how great the machines are, losses are going to be high.

This applies more to Macross II, not nessesarily Frontier. I don't think they're just relying on singing anymore. We haven't seen any sound weapons in Frontier. I mean, they find a new unknown alien race (Vajra), shouldn't their first thought be "Let's sing to it! That's worked on all the other aliens we've faced!"

[Dendrobium Stamen]

As regards the state of the UN forces and why SMS have become the pivotal element of Macross 25's defence forces... it may be worth considering the fact that the organisation we're seeing in Frontier is the New UN Spacy - clearly something rather important has happened between 7 and the new series for the "old" UN Spacy to have fallen by the wayside to be replaced by this modern incarnation. While it could be that the force we've seen in previous series' has simply been renamed, that'd be comparable to some event causing the American government to rename a branch of their armed forces the New US Navy, so I'm hoping this isn't the case. To make a wild assertion, it could be a result of the prior contact with the Varja 11 years prior to the series' beginning that gave us this reborn force?

I'm sure more Macross-knowledgeable people can connect this tidbit to an in-universe explanation of where the VF-19 and VF-22 went, and why the VF-17 was used as the basis of the New UN Spacy's current-generation fighter, but that's not for me I don't think