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Revolver Ocelot
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Post by Revolver Ocelot » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:09 pm

Chris wrote: I'm really tired of having the term "bias" thrown in my face time and time again. If I critically judge something and don't like it for various listed reasons, why does that make me 'biased'? What's wrong with giving the last episode of MSG a 5 if I think it was superior to GSD's finale? How is that being "biased?" Reviewing something critically is not the same thing as being "out for blood." I gave the second half of SEED positive ratings, and the first half of GSD got pretty positive reviews (particularly the first 13 or so episodes). I feel to see how there's any "bias" in pointing out legitimate faults of a series. And though you're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, if you can look at all of GSD and honestly say you don't find a single serious fault with it, you're definitely softballing it.
I don't recall ever saying GSD was perfect. I just said it was my favorite Gundam series. Like you said, nothing's perfect. But also, it seems when you and I watch a Gundam series, we're on the lookout for totally different things.

If you want an example of how black and white you and I are, I thought the last episode of MSG was a total disaster and completely failed at anything even remotely resembling closure. I think MSG's abrupt ending is pretty glaring and undeniable despite the fact that the series lost 7 episodes, yet the equally unsatisfying endings of SEED, Destiny, Wing, and a few others get torn apart for committing the same crimes in your reviews.

I'm sorry, but I loved GSD. I loved the mecha designs, I loved the fight scenes, I loved the characters and how they had grown since the first series, and I thought it executed drama better than a lot of the other sagas without delving into overly contrived plot angles and nonsensical character motivations. The fact that there's some hokey elements like characters surviving exploding mobile suits and lots of flashbacks aren't enough to undo the above mentioned pros, and they're really minor setbacks in my view.
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Post by Mwulf » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:23 pm

Ugh... you have some major problems with the English language... particularly words like "opinion".

Do you honestly not see how foolish you're being? I'm done with this thread. Odds are it'll be locked soon anyway.
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Post by Chris » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:25 pm

Revolver Ocelot wrote:If you want an example of how black and white you and I are, I thought the last episode of MSG was a total disaster and completely failed at anything even remotely resembling closure. I think MSG's abrupt ending is pretty glaring and undeniable despite the fact that the series lost 7 episodes, yet the equally unsatisfying endings of SEED, Destiny, Wing, and a few others get torn apart for committing the same crimes in your reviews.
Again, we completely disagree. I don't see how in any way, shape, or form the final episode of MSG is a disaster. Everything the series has been building to is resolved and ends with an epic battle. There are other factors to consider when comparing these series, since you point to MSG. One is the fact that it's the ORIGINAL, and to some extent every series thereafter will be derivative. Second is the fact that it was canceled early, so I'm willing to be more forgiving with any problems (the same goes for X), not that MSG's ending has any problems. On the other hand, SEED, DESTINY and Wing enjoyed full runs and squandered their potential and endings via clip shows or other wastes of valuable time.
Revolver Ocelot wrote:I'm sorry, but I loved GSD. I loved the mecha designs, I loved the fight scenes, I loved the characters and how they had grown since the first series, and I thought it executed drama better than a lot of the other sagas without delving into overly contrived plot angles and nonsensical character motivations. The fact that there's some hokey elements like characters surviving exploding mobile suits and lots of flashbacks aren't enough to undo the above mentioned pros, and they're really minor setbacks in my view.
Given how much DESTINY is a rehash of elements of SEED and Zeta, I don't see how it handles anything "better" than other series. If anything, what you're saying just proves my point that you're softballing the series because you like it so much. When it comes to bias, you're the one who's biased in favor of these shows and can't see anything wrong. And that's the difference between us - I can acknowledge that the series I enjoy aren't perfect. You claim to do the same, yet at the same time you dismiss problems with the series as "minor setbacks."

Coming back to the issue of bias, you mentioned in a previous point my review for the last episode of GSD, which rated a 2. Yet you conveniently ignore my review of FINAL PLUS, which rated higher as a 3. If I was so jaded and biased, I wouldn't give FP a higher rating. Also, at the time GSD ended, I got a lot of criticism from people who thought I was too *soft* on the finale by giving it a 2. I also got the same criticism for giving FP a 3. Those people are the biased ones, and I ignore that and judge the show by its own merits (or lack thereof). Giving my honest opinion is just that - nothing less and nothing more.
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Post by saneman » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:36 pm

No offense to anyone... but why are you having this discussion at all?
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Post by Revolver Ocelot » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Mwulf wrote:Ugh... you have some major problems with the English language... particularly words like "opinion".

Do you honestly not see how foolish you're being? I'm done with this thread. Odds are it'll be locked soon anyway.
Yeah.. with people like you just trolling in to insult people without contributing anything to the otherwise well-behaved conversation, it probably will.. nice going.
Given how much DESTINY is a rehash of elements of SEED and Zeta, I don't see how it handles anything "better" than other series. If anything, what you're saying just proves my point that you're softballing the series because you like it so much. When it comes to bias, you're the one who's biased in favor of these shows and can't see anything wrong. And that's the difference between us - I can acknowledge that the series I enjoy aren't perfect. You claim to do the same, yet at the same time you dismiss problems with the series as "minor setbacks."
Sorry, that seems a little conceited to me. It seems like you think that your opinion about the show seems to be more reasonable than mine. Like I said, we differ greatly in our views. What you consider a major offense, I consider minor, and what I consider a major offense you consider minor. It's all relative. It's not a fact that GSD wasn't good, so I wish people would stop acting that way. I never said it was perfect, I never even said it was great. I just said it was my favorite, so stop acting like I'm proclaiming GSD as the greatest achievement in the history of animated television. The fact that it's my favorite means absolutely nothing to anyone but me. I'm not softballing anything. I just loved it and think everyone should give it a chance and decide for themselves whether it's good or not, and believe it or not, I'm not the only person out there who really likes SEED Destiny. Is there something wrong with that?
Giving my honest opinion is just that - nothing less and nothing more.
That's basically what I said here:
But I don't really complain about it because that's honestly how you felt.
Go ahead and bash SEED Destiny, I don't care. It seems to me like you're a little UC biased, but that's not necessarily true. As long as you know you aren't, what I say shouldn't matter.
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Post by Chris » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:06 pm

Revolver Ocelot wrote:I just loved it and think everyone should give it a chance and decide for themselves whether it's good or not, and believe it or not, I'm not the only person out there who really likes SEED Destiny. Is there something wrong with that?.
No, there's nothing at all wrong with that. I found SEED as a whole ok, and I enjoyed parts of DESTINY.
Go ahead and bash SEED Destiny, I don't care. It seems to me like you're a little UC biased, but that's not necessarily true. As long as you know you aren't, what I say shouldn't matter.
I'm not out to "bash" DESTINY. People do that already on 4chan and countless other forums. I review anime and provide legitimate criticism about what I think is wrong with it. And once again, I'm tired of people throwing "UC bias" at me. On the flipside, I could throw an "AU bias" at you if I wanted to resort to name calling. Have you even seen my AU reviews, or at least the review averages? If I'm "UC biased," why are G, X and Turn A ranked so highly? Why does SEED come out with a solidly average rating, when if I hate it so much I could just rate everything a 1 or 0?

You're free to enjoy SEED all you want - you have your opinion and I have mine. And I don't dissuade people from watching and deciding for themselves. It's clear our opinions are diametrically opposed, so we're never going to agree on this. Might as well just agree to disagree while this is still civil.
Last edited by Chris on Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RoninWanderer » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:08 pm

Well, im watching GSD now, go through Break the World. Seems pretty good, not as good as the last part of Seed yet, but good. But, god, i hate Shinn's attitude.

And people, there is nothing wrong with people liking shows that you find flawed/lacking/etc.. Personally, i thought the ratings given to Macross Zero were lower than i would have given(5's all around!), but i dont argue. Same goes for F91 and Wing, especially the former.

And remember, the reviews on MAHQ are based on the reviewer's opinion and thoughts.

edit: dont mean to act like a moderator, just dont want the flame war to keep going :?
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Revolver Ocelot
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Post by Revolver Ocelot » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:14 pm

Chris wrote:I'm not out to "bash" DESTINY. People do that already on 4chan and countless other forums. I review anime and provide legitimate criticism about what I think is wrong with it. And once again, I'm tired of people throwing "UC bias" at me. On the flipside, I could throw an "AU bias" at you if I wanted to resort to name calling. Have you even seen my AU reviews, or at least the review averages? If I'm "UC biased," why are G, X and Turn A ranked so highly? Why does SEED come out with a solidly average rating, when if I hate it so much I could just rate everything a 1 or 0?
I hate to throw more wood on the fire, but I think it's funny that X and Turn A never came out here and that G is really unpopular. Perhaps it's not so much an anti-AU bias as it is an anti-popular bias? More baseless speculation, but I digress..

At any rate, I think this whole thing got blown way out of proportion. All I was trying to do was stick up for GSD. I apologize if I've offended you in any way. I think your reviews are really comprehensive and well-written even if I don't agree with them most of the time.
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Chris
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Post by Chris » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:21 pm

Revolver Ocelot wrote:I hate to throw more wood on the fire, but I think it's funny that X and Turn A never came out here and that G is really unpopular. Perhaps it's not so much an anti-AU bias as it is an anti-popular bias? More baseless speculation, but I digress..

At any rate, I think this whole thing got blown way out of proportion. All I was trying to do was stick up for GSD. I apologize if I've offended you in any way. I think your reviews are really comprehensive and well-written even if I don't agree with them most of the time.
A good debate can be engaging, so I don't have any problem with that. However, I do take offense at the last comment about an "anti-popular bias." That never factors into anything I review. I don't care about the hype a series has, one way or the other. And while people will complain about me comparing Gundam series with each other, that's just the way it is.
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Post by Revolver Ocelot » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:28 pm

Chris wrote: However, I do take offense at the last comment about an "anti-popular bias." That never factors into anything I review. I don't care about the hype a series has, one way or the other. And while people will complain about me comparing Gundam series with each other, that's just the way it is.
I was pretty much elbow-jabbing you with that one.. but it's hard to express that sort of thing in text.
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Post by Wingnut » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:30 pm

All right, shut it Ocelot. You have taken this way too far off topic already. I should have taken measures against this earlier. If you want to rant and bitch about Chris and his reviews, do it in a PM.

Let's get this back to the original topic now if at all possible.
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