LOGOS

[lordyu]

The people in Western Eurasia were not attacking ZAFT. The Alliance military was.

I ment that it was to be expected that the alliance would attack.

Gundam Official says so.

It may say so but there is little evidence in GSD that the war was for profit.

[razgriz]

its good story fodder to have a secret society like logos, although it could seem like they were wiped out, their survivors/descendants could easily ressurect themselves after a hibernation period to lull their victims into a false sense of security. cliche, yes, but it still makes for exciting and endless sci-fi/action material.

[Ravager]

It may say so but there is little evidence in GSD that the war was for profit.

When the organization is called Military Industrial Conglomerate and Merchants of Death, it is pretty much understood by the intelligent audience that one of the major reasons of the war is for profit.

Although I do recall some of Djibril's pals seeming genuinely surprised at Break the World, especially the methods used to conduct it, so I suppose the backstage player in this case might be someone else, like Dullindal.

It is heavily implied in Destiny Astray that this is the case.

I ment that it was to be expected that the alliance would attack.

The central Eurasian military largely turned a blind eye on the Western Eurasian insurrection. Otherwise, the rebels wouldn't have lasted for so long and ZAFT would not have gained access to such a city as Berlin. So this is not the Alliance military attacking. More like the Atlantic troops doing Djibril's bidding. He did mention he is moving in heavy Atlantic forces to garrison Western Eurasia.

[Melchior]

A news reporter also mentioned that the Eurasian Commander-in-Chief had deployed three divisions of ground troops to deal with the rebels in Western Eurasia, so they Central Eurasians weren't turning a blind eye, as you say.

[Ravager]

Note that i said largely turned a blind eye to the troubles. Three divisions of ground troops? That's like almost an afterthought. Western Eurasia is a whole half-continent at the least. Three divisions of ground troops without mobile suit support looks a very weak effort when the rebels would likely have Daggers, a Hyperion (since taken out) and massive local support.

I assume this is from Delta Astray?

[Melchior]

No, it's from Phase 16 or 17, can't remember which exactly.

[lordyu]

the AF never invaded Western Eurasia. Phantom pain is made up of personnel from all alliance nations.

[ShadowCell]

The people in Western Eurasia were not attacking ZAFT. The Alliance military was.

I ment that it was to be expected that the alliance would attack.

Gundam Official says so.

It may say so but there is little evidence in GSD that the war was for profit.

I'm pretty sure an explanation from the official Bandai English website for Gundam SEED DESTINY trumps that anyway.

the AF never invaded Western Eurasia. Phantom pain is made up of personnel from all alliance nations.

Where'd you get this? It only says "Earth Alliance personnel and equipment"--that could easily simply mean the Atlantic Federation, using equipment that is employed by the rest of the Alliance as well.

[Crusader]

I never ever heared anyone in LOGOS mention money. The only problem with that is Djibril gets all the screentime over the rest of his comrades. I don't even remember him mentioning money.

There is no proof that LOGOS had a hand in Break the world, i would like to see some proof of that.

On the subject off Phantom Pain, i thought they were rather small. Given that thier numbers seem small in the mangas. Mattise group doesn't count, as she was apart of the EA's intellegence group.

[blaze101]

Well, in terms of the Windam, Dagger L, Slaughter Dagger...

Hmm...obviously, it's another case of "the legendary Super-Saiyan." But we still could try to make sense out of it. Of the three original Striker packs, the only one I've seen used by the Windam was Aile. We've seen the Dagger L and Slaughter Dagger with Sword and Launcher Strikers, not to mention a refined ISWP Striker for the latter.

So, maybe the Windam was an expedient way of beefing up OMNI forces, exploiting which seem to be "cheap" Striker packs (Dopplehorn and Jet) and being better suited to the grunt OMNI ranks than the Dagger L was. Now which is better, the Dagger L or the Slaughter Dagger, I won't go there, lol.

But I'd like to think that to OMNI/PP's top notch pilots, using the Dagger Ls/Slaughter Daggers isn't much different than using a Windam, but what makes the former two choices more preferable than the latter is the wider variety of Striker packs that can be used.

[StrikeEnd]

Phantom Pain's official description from the STARGAZER website, translated on Gunota here, describe it as getting the best equipment and funding from Blue Cosmos--which is a front for LOGOS, so essentially, Phantom Pain is LOGOS's military arm.

That's... some pretty twisted logic. Phantom Pain is something akin to the Titans -- they're technically a part of OMNI, but operate outside the standard chain of command. And, like the Titans, they seem to be pretty small -- which makes them a poor choice for a group designed to line Logos' pockets.

Logically, that would require a bigger budget, because you'd have to get a hold of fancy Strike Gundam variants or Destroy Gundams or whatever for free, and even if LOGOS is funding Phantom Pain through Blue Cosmos, they're going to have to get their weapons from somewhere, which makes for a convenient nullification of the costs of the Phantom Pain.

The Destroys never seem to be under Phantom Pain's command -- OMNI just borrows some of their pilots. And it seems to me that upgraded GAT-X machines and stolen enemy units would be far cheaper than designing new Gundams from the ground up, so if Logos was really using Phantom Pain as a cash cow, they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it.

Besides, with the way Djibril was strutting around for his associates while the Destroy was leveling Berlin, it seems to me that he'd at the very least had some hand in the development of the Destroy.

That makes sense, yes; I'd imagine the development of the mobile armors cost more than Phantom Pain's entire operation. But of course, the mobile armors weren't part of Phantom Pain...

The Windam was introduced after the Armory 1 raid

Maybe, but Phantom Pain is still using Daggers rather than Windams as late as the battle against Stargazer; significantly after the Windam rolled out.

Either way, Neo managed to get his hands on one.

And he's the only Phantom Pain pilot we see who does.

Again...remember how well the Windams did in battle? Yeah.

I imagine that was largely because of inferior pilots rather than Windams being an inferior machine. Phantom Pain does alright with nothing but Dagger Ls and Slaughter Daggers (in addition to their Extended-piloted Gundams, of course). As you mention above, Neo grabs himself a Windam -- and he's the only Phantom Pain pilot who does. If it was an inferior machine, why would he pull strings to get one for himself rather than just grabbing a Dagger L or Slaughter Dagger?

Besides, even the rest of the Alliance was using Dagger Ls as well as Windams

I don't believe we see any regular OMNI units using Daggers during Destiny, though I could be wrong about that. Regardless, it's obvious that the vast majority of OMNI is using Windams for the vast majority of Destiny -- and yet Phantom Pain is not. Seems rather out of character for a Logos cash cow.

From what I can tell from what I've seen from the show and from GundamOfficial, Phantom Pain was indeed Logos's private army. The reason why PP never used the Windam was simple: it was a brand new machine that had yet to prove itself on the battlefield, whereas the 105 was a good machine, tried and true. The Dagger L was something of an upgrade, so why not use it, too? Phantom Pain obviously was at Daedalus and Heaven's Base, so it's not too out of the question to assume at least a couple of the mobile armors there were used by Phantom Pain. Also, GO said that Phantom Pain was comprised of the best soldiers Blue Cosmos could get its hands on, so, for desperate battles like Heaven's Base and Daedalus, wouldn't the selection for the best soldiers be kinda limited. I'm aware most of that is conjecture, but its still entirely plausible.