Turn A and X vs SEED and SEED DESTINY

[Ultimetemark4]

I don't understand. Does everybody here agree with the reviews on the Anime section of Gundam, cause I really don't. I personally despised Turn A and X because of how much they focused on the boring 'character development'. These are really just over glorified cartoons, yet you treat it like a book, taking it way to seriousl.

I feel it is completley fine if a series isn't full of plot advancement all the time, I find it quite boring. I loved SEED for the amout of action and fighting. Not boring cheesy love scenes. (SEED had alot, but they were easily ingnorable)

Why is it that everybody here loves over amouts of plot and character development.

Of course I'll lose cause of out numberment

[Strike Zero]

It's simply all a matter of preference. Sometimes I like to watch a good action scene from SEED, but most of the time I like to sit down and watch a really good story take its time to unfold.

[Ultimetemark4]

It's simply all a matter of preference. Sometimes I like to watch a good action scene from SEED, but most of the time I like to sit down and watch a really good story take its time to unfold.

I just can't do that. I turn off the tv and look for something better to do.

[lalahsghost]

I already don't see this thread going anywhere productive, so heed this unofficial warning and make sure your posts are going to be cognitive, intelligent, and purposeful before submitting them.

[Annon Kaies Zi]

The two different styles are both acceptable. The action-oriented anime is preferred by a very good amount of people (who doesn't like shit blowing up?). And good for them; to each their own. However, there's also many others that prefer story and characters. There's good things about both styles, as there are bad things. Again, to each their own. When you have a type of show such as Gundam, there seems to be a split in these styles. It is a genre that many people expect to be very action packed (they are mecha after all). However, the genre also tilts toward story. So many times you get a split community also.

Now, I believe that in communities such as MAHQ, you'll find many, many more people that prefer the story/characters. Why is this? Well, I think that most people that take time out of their day to become part of a community such as this, also prefer their anime to have something deep...otherwise, why would they spend so much time discussing it? However, obviously there are a very good amount of people that prefer the action (which is obvious considering how popular SEED and SEED DESTINY are, along with Wing and other Gundam series). But, again, I don't think you'll find as many of these people in communities such as MAHQ, or most other bigger communities.

[Collector]

i love both ways, and when they are mixed together, in all honesty sometimes i want to watch something in depth or watch soemthing wher everything gets blown to shit just as strike zero said. I mean look at gundam wing, decent plot advance ment with decent ass kicking. and thats what i grew up on

[Camille Vidan]

I agree on the reviews, but not on the points. Seed got a lot of 5-s.

[Haros_Pet_Kat]

Gundam Wing is definitely better for its story than its action since most of its action is either blowing up grunts or having a duel that ends in a stalemate.

I watched Gundam SEED for the action, but the latter half began to have that "Gundam Wing" feel where you see more grunt destruction and stalemates until the fight with Rau. The story was decent, although it shouldn't have borrowed from UC so much because its original elements were its strength.

The only thing about SEED that really ticked me off was ZAFT building a couple of new Gundams because it seemed so wrong for them to build its enemy's style of mobile suit and make them much better than the monoeyes they were known for.

I definitely prefer UC's style, where the main character tends to be put in dangerous and unique situations and does something smart to get himself out. I love Zeta Gundam and Victory Gundam, because even though beams are so rampant, there are other elements of fighting tactics thrown in to try and get the opponent in a bad situation so they can't dodge that beam, and at the same time they have good stories to go with the action scenes.

[Ryujin]

Shouldn't this thread at least be moved to the Anime & Manga forum instead of General Discussions?

[Antares]

I am always wondering why is it that we cannot have the cake of plot development and eat it while watching good action all in the same series? I suppose Gundam series are a bit restricted by their genre to go for one or the other. GS/D offer action but we've all pretty much agreed that the series do so at the expense of other aspects. I still like to refer to my favorite anime sci-fi saga Legend of the Galactic Heroes which I feels brings in character development and plot and action. Then again, a friend of mine who liked GS for the action thought LoGH was deadly boring. I guess what I am saying is that you usually look for different things in anime, and judge that series according to how you feel your expectations were met.

[muishkin]

I don't think the issues is so black and white.

The action choreography in Turn A is no doubt better than the flashy repetitivness shown in Seed and Seed Destiny. It's just didn't have a lot of it.

Seed had some good character developments and sets up a very intriguing gundam alternate timeline.

Seed Destiny actually had a decent story. The show was marred by various other factors.

[Kokopelli]

I think one of the issues is that the mecha genre falls into an action orientated stereotype. Even the fans expect to be entertained by heavy plot and action. Not that mecha fans can't appreciate slower plots and character development though.

The first time I saw Turn A I watched about 2-3 eps then put it town because I couldn't understand what it was trying to do. Later I went back to watch it for completion's sake and was pleasently surprised that it became my favorite series. X was very well balanced in character and action (they start out with a colony laser firing!) so I don't understand why one wwould think that it is boring. The only thing I can think of is the two points were the story stalled during the Ocean and Kingdom arcs.

One of the problems I had with SEED was the action was repetitive. It doesn't take a keen eye to notice when animation sequences are repeated. Honestly I found Wing much better in terms of action due to the one-sided slaughterfest of the Gunddams vs OZ grunts (you know you like seeing 1 hero take on 100 badguys).

I have to ask why you would say that you love action so much but do not like plot, character development, or love scenes? What's the point to action is there is no purpose behind it? Keep in mind that whether its a glorified cartoon or a work of classic literature, ther purpose is to tell a story (and sometimes critique society, investigate the human condition, etc..) and that requires setting up conflict through character interactions and plot development. It sounds like you'd enjoy the Gundam Evolve shorts more than a series since they focus on a few minutes of gorgeous animation rather than telling a story.

[Dark Duel]

(you know you like seeing 1 hero take on 100 badguys)

For my part, no, I don't, which is the very reason why I found some parts of the last ten Eps or so of Seed tedious, and also the specific reason why I hated a large portion of Seed Destiny. There's too much of that "1 hero take on 100 badguys".
This is especially true when the Freedom is involved - I'll accept that it's a powerful machine, but its capabilities in terms of the numbers of MS it is capable of blasting apart, especially when standing stock-still and shooting in a single direction, are GROSSLY EXAGGERATED.
Wing, at least, was tolerable about that, except for the earliest engagements involving Wing Zero. It suffered the same flaw, but it was less blatant, and I actually found it less exaggerated.

[Haros_Pet_Kat]

Yeah. The difference between Gundam Wing and Gundam SEED is that the Gundams have extremely powerful armor and weapons that let them be able to survive missions that no UC mech could ever dream of doing. It's actually acknowledged in-story that they are very hard to kill, so the viewer expects the Gundams to do cleanup work.

SEED, however... People have a good reason to complain about some characters being able to fight a hundred grunts and survive during SEED Destiny (I'm not sure SEED qualifies, because Kira and Athrun were mostly fighting the druggies during the later half, and Kira had some good fight scenes during the first half). SEED Gundams are just re-imagined UC Gundams, meaning that they are actually capable of being destroyed, yet they wanted to go for Wing-style battles anyway.

Remember the scene where Shinn in the Impulse was floating in one place, with twenty Windams firing beams at him, with the only beam that would have hit Shinn being blocked by the shield? That was one of the worst scenes I have ever seen in my entire life! I can't even comprehend why something like that would come into fruitition, especially after the awesome battle scenes that broke the mold during the colony drop.

[Aegis]

You're missing a third choice in the selection, namely one that says something along the lines of 'Doesn't matter so long as it's good'. I love watching something with a deep plot and character development, but I also enjoy the mindless action left right and centre. Afterall, I love the slow pace of series such as Macross Plus as well as the graphically intense, sound thumping Appleseed. The key to this is that whatever the aim of the series, just please do it well.

When Destiny tried the philosophical approach, it did it very bad. Wing has been slammed at times for its shallowness, yet that series did manage to nail some aspects of war and pacifism down very nicely, probably moreso in some regards than other vaunted Gundam series. When it tried to get into action, it was rather repetitive and too predictable. You very much knew Kira and co would win, and you knew that it'll be done via crippling.

Still, I've seen far worse action scenes than Destiny. Afterall, I take serious issues with FF7 Advent Children and its definition of a fight scene.

[mcred23]

You're missing a third choice in the selection, namely one that says something along the lines of 'Doesn't matter so long as it's good'. I love watching something with a deep plot and character development, but I also enjoy the mindless action left right and centre. Afterall, I love the slow pace of series such as Macross Plus as well as the graphically intense, sound thumping Appleseed. The key to this is that whatever the aim of the series, just please do it well.

I'd have to agree with that. If a show is good and if you're watching it in a certain frame of mind, most shows (Particularly some of the Gundam ones) can be enjoyable.

That said, even trying to make it a clear cut "Plot Development vs Action Packed" thing doesn't exactly work, for as it's been noted a few times, the action isn't always going to be good (Over-use of stock footage kills many shows) and unless the plot grabs you, how it develops doesn't matter. It all comes down to the series in question, and, as it was said earlier in this thread, a matter of personal preference.

[Imperial]

You can't really rank one over the other, I think. You need a mix of both to make a Gundam series work. Relying purely on one over the other will lead to a flop.

If you want a bunch of mindless violence, then Getter Robo might be more up your alley. Gundam is about more than the machines slugging it out.

Sure, it's a cartoon, but we enjoy it. We see what it sets out to do and enjoy the end result.

[NewtypeS3]

The funny thing is that Wing is about 50/50 with character development and action. It's actually closer to shows like Zeta, which have moments that are character-heavy - but then also have action-heavy moments.

It's just that 'fans' of the show who never really watched it claim that Wing is either all-action or all-talking-heads.

As for myself, I also fall into that third unwritten category of "I'll like it if it's good."
Seed was decent.
I loved Wing.
I loved X.
I loved Turn-A most of all, but lamented the lack of action in the first half.

Destiny, however, seemed to shove EVERYTHING aside completely. Ugh.

[Jak Stoller]

When I want action, I want action. If i want plot/storyline, I go watch something that doesn't have giant robots... To me, if your gonna try to make something all serious with character development and plots, you shouldn't have huge ass robots that still somehow don't fall through the concreat on the streets. If i'm watching something as laughable (i mean, honestly, its not realistic folks) as Gundam, i just wanna be immersed in this other reality, and suspend my disbelief. Which to me means reveling in the whole point of Gundam; battle, battle battle, more battle, and just enough "war-sucks" mentality to qualify it as not a super robot show I mean, every one of the shows is named after... A Gundam, yep. Not after a plot element, or a character... so obviously the emphisus isn't on that to begin with.

On the shows like Turn A, where they try to produce more plot, I feel like their negating the purpose of the Mobile Suits to begin with. A really good design that could be kickin ass is taking back seat to some kid with some social or personal issues that are about as cliche as they come. Unfortunatly, in the Gundam universe especialy, "action packed" just means rehashed animation. If I see the Strike bust that same action-pose (shootin from the hip, shield cocked back, legs bent, ya know the one) I'm just gonna pause it there and make up the rest of the story... something along the lines of robots only having three configurations of servo placement for combat measures...

But lets face it, Gundams market audience is adolecent males who can't focus through a 20 second comercial without a gag or an action shocker... Which really is fine with me, cause the less of my time I have to sit through some kid with angst issues the better... Its the same reason why I watch Spike TV over The Soup Network.

--Jak

[Mark064]

Since when have books been the "owners" of plot and character development? That is some series sterotyping you have going on there that books can only be "serious" and something animated loses any thing that could be called serious. Unless a TV show is episodic (Simpsons, Family Guy, etc.) the plot and characters will develop this seems to be more dominant in anime then cartoons.

Gundam managed to be different from early Super Robot shows where the characters rarely changed to a great degree. In the end of Mazinger Z Kabuto Kouji was more or less the same guy, sure it took him a few episodes not to pilot Mazinger Z like a total idiot but he quickly got that under control and stayed the same. Mobile Suit Gundam brought a great change to this as Amuro changed quite a bit over the course of the series and the stories were more focused on plot and character development then a super robot going and smashing the enemies. The trend continued with all the Gundam shows and future Super Robot shows as well.

See this is why constantly in Gundam shows we see kids just happen upon Gundams and become their pilots. This is a way for the characters to develop their lifestyle is then changed to something out of the ordinary and they are forced to adopt a more militaristic or at the very least fighting lifestyle. (Tomino seems to really love this idea as it's present in most of his robot shows with L-Gaim and Daitarn 3 being the real exceptions that come to mind as both Daba and Banjou just start with their mecha) This whole thing then leads to the character expanding even more because of said lifestyle. In the event this is not done and they become the pilot for other reason they are forced to use another starting point for the development. For example in 08th Shiro had his love with Aina, Domon in G had his brother "stealing" the Devil Gundam, and Shinn in SEED Destiny had his revenge. This is also mixed into other more simple things of why they stay as a pilot for example Judau in ZZ wanted to help his sister with a better life and Kira in SEED wanted to protect his friends. Gundams are nothing more then tools for character development.

Now to pick on some series. Turn A Gundam specfically focuses more so on character development. Perhaps this was just Tomino's attempt to make a commercial unfavorable series where the Gundam didn't need to be constantly focused. X there really isn't any dignifying quality that I can really think about that make it any more character or plot development then virtually the rest of Gundam. Gundam Wing did focus quite a bit of character development and even more so plot development though Relena seemed to be the focus of this rather then Heero. SEED is quite a bit the same deal Kira grows up quite a bit as a character and same with everyone else... Lacus comes to mind.

But honestly from this pairing of Turn A and X vs Gundam Wing and SEED it seems to be more around the lines of wanting a Gundam that can go against 100 MS and win apposed to something more in turn of a war story where the Gundam is not the be all, end all force. And not part of the Lacus is Right and Everyone Else is Wrong Gang or the Five Man Army.

Now for my preference in all of this. I love Super Robot shows. I love seeing Super Robots smash through the monsters of the week and anything the evil forces throw at them, it doesn't matter if the characters don't develop or do develop because Super Robot shows are there to showcase the robot more so then the character. That being said I love Real Robot Shows too. It's always nice to see the plot and character develop as the robots destroy whatever. Of course when shows mix it up it's alright too. But that was my problem with SEED/D they tried to have a serious war going on but then threw in super robot aspects. So it sorta killed the whole idea of a serious war. Turn A Gundam ended up being my favorite Gundam show because of it's story and character development. I'm not someone so starved for something not being destroyed. And Turn A had some beautiful mecha action as well. Which when you get down to it the more action of SEED/D and Wing ended up reusing the same battle scenes multiple times. Wing did this to a far less as the constantly reused battle animtions were death animations.