Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

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Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Jameedaark » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:06 pm

Hi, in Gundam we have population estimates for the colonies but I have never found population estimates for the moon and its cities. Any info or ideas?
Thank you

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:24 pm

The only lunar settlement I've seen a population figure given for was Von Braun. In Gundam Officials, it's said to be the largest/most populous lunar settlement... home to approximately 50 million people. That'd suggest that the moon's population was somewhere south of 300 million, given the settlements we know about.
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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Jameedaark » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:33 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:24 pm
The only lunar settlement I've seen a population figure given for was Von Braun. In Gundam Officials, it's said to be the largest/most populous lunar settlement... home to approximately 50 million people. That'd suggest that the moon's population was somewhere south of 300 million, given the settlements we know about.
Thanks Seto!
That's a lot of people for a city...I always had thought that the lunar settlemen are problematic cause the low gravity, but evidently on the moon they have some system to counteract the harmful effects of low gravity :?

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:24 pm

Jameedaark wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:33 pm
Thanks Seto!
That's a lot of people for a city...I always had thought that the lunar settlemen are problematic cause the low gravity, but evidently on the moon they have some system to counteract the harmful effects of low gravity :?
On a 0083 pamphlet, they showed Von Braun's underground city with slanted spinning mechanism to give you artificial gravity. (And since it is the underground part, you cannot see it as such outside.)
Granted, as the slope is linear(drawn as such), the closer to the centre, the less gravity they will get.

The design isn't new, at least a Japanese science magazine translated article showed various similar design for moon cities in the late eighties, some even with rings of different slopes/spin speed to give you a more similar gravity simulation. Probably that is what inspired the Von Braun design of 0083's pamphlet.(but too late for Zeta)

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Jameedaark » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:48 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:24 pm
Jameedaark wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:33 pm
Thanks Seto!
That's a lot of people for a city...I always had thought that the lunar settlemen are problematic cause the low gravity, but evidently on the moon they have some system to counteract the harmful effects of low gravity :?
On a 0083 pamphlet, they showed Von Braun's underground city with slanted spinning mechanism to give you artificial gravity. (And since it is the underground part, you cannot see it as such outside.)
Granted, as the slope is linear(drawn as such), the closer to the centre, the less gravity they will get.

The design isn't new, at least a Japanese science magazine translated article showed various similar design for moon cities in the late eighties, some even with rings of different slopes/spin speed to give you a more similar gravity simulation. Probably that is what inspired the Von Braun design of 0083's pamphlet.(but too late for Zeta)
Spinning a whole underground city on the moon?
I don't understand how.
Can you explain to me?
I've seen many drawnings of von braun with cutaway and maps in this page (https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Von_Braun)
but I don't undestand how spin a city of 50 millions under the surface.
Seems to me a little too much despite Gundam... :shock:

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:20 pm

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Jameedaark » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:29 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:20 pm
Kind of like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_Up_(ride)
This is absurd.
Apart from the fact that we have never seen in Gundam any scene in which von Braun turns like a spinning top, it would also be impractical with large cities and buildings as we see in von Braun. Ok for the colonies that are in the void but the lunar cities I don't think they turn like tops. In fact my doubt is that they have much smaller populations than colonies; in support of this we have people like degin zabi who spent a lot of time on the moon and in 0079 at a not too old age he was already reduced as an old sick man

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:46 pm

Jameedaark wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:29 pm
This is absurd.
Apart from the fact that we have never seen in Gundam any scene in which von Braun turns like a spinning top, it would also be impractical with large cities and buildings as we see in von Braun.
Not really... it won't work much differently to the interior of a colony, which we've seen some heavily urbanized versions of.

It's not as easy as in zero gravity, but 1/6th of a g isn't a lot to get in the way.

The big problem is that the animators basically forgot that Luna only has 0.1666667g local gravity... so everyone on the moon walks around like it's Earth sea level.
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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Jameedaark » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:07 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:46 pm
Jameedaark wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:29 pm
This is absurd.
Apart from the fact that we have never seen in Gundam any scene in which von Braun turns like a spinning top, it would also be impractical with large cities and buildings as we see in von Braun.
Not really... it won't work much differently to the interior of a colony, which we've seen some heavily urbanized versions of.

It's not as easy as in zero gravity, but 1/6th of a g isn't a lot to get in the way.

The big problem is that the animators basically forgot that Luna only has 0.1666667g local gravity... so everyone on the moon walks around like it's Earth sea level.
I can live with an error in the animation.
But with city like new york constructed inside a big washing machine on the surface of the moon is a big big trouble also for gundam technology, for my opinion. In space you have no gravity. Ok with low gravity on moon but is not zero. What happens if on the moon the spinning broke down? All the city fall?
I prefer to think that people on city on moon have the problem to live with low gravity and infact majority live on colonies.

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:04 pm

Jameedaark wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:07 pm
I can live with an error in the animation.
But with city like new york constructed inside a big washing machine on the surface of the moon is a big big trouble also for gundam technology, for my opinion. In space you have no gravity. Ok with low gravity on moon but is not zero. What happens if on the moon the spinning broke down? All the city fall?
I prefer to think that people on city on moon have the problem to live with low gravity and infact majority live on colonies.
You do not need to have high speed rotation, for example, the O'Neil Cylinder spins at a rate of 0.5rpm, or 1 revolution every 2 mins.
On the Moon, it would also not be a cylinder but a sloped ground, because you can add the Moon's gravity to the equation. You can get something like a 20 degree slope and things won't get really messy even when the spin stopped, and likely such structures will stop from time to time, either for maintenance or accidents.

Think of a turntable, if you put a marble on it and spin, the marble will fly off the edge, if you have a spinning V-shaped surface, when no spinning the marble will fall to the centre and will stay in a certain height depending on your speed of rotation. The g-force it is experiencing is higher than gravity, and this is what they are doing with a spinning city.

But like I said, no matter how you do it, as long as it is a linear slope(unless, it is a straight cliff), most of the city won't have the maximum gravity you are generating, so most of them will be in low gravity.
If you have something like a gravity well shape(inverse bell), a higher slope in the middle and a smaller slope on the outside, you can get roughly the same gravity, but at a certain slope things are likely to either roll or slide off, so the middle will be cut out and not spin.

Technology wise, they have the power required and electromagnetic means of doing so, and since most creators don't care for actual engineering and economic problems, I guess you have to let those slide.

BTW, Anaheim journal basically ditched the whole rotation idea.

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Jameedaark » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:31 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:04 pm
Jameedaark wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:07 pm
I can live with an error in the animation.
But with city like new york constructed inside a big washing machine on the surface of the moon is a big big trouble also for gundam technology, for my opinion. In space you have no gravity. Ok with low gravity on moon but is not zero. What happens if on the moon the spinning broke down? All the city fall?
I prefer to think that people on city on moon have the problem to live with low gravity and infact majority live on colonies.
You do not need to have high speed rotation, for example, the O'Neil Cylinder spins at a rate of 0.5rpm, or 1 revolution every 2 mins.
On the Moon, it would also not be a cylinder but a sloped ground, because you can add the Moon's gravity to the equation. You can get something like a 20 degree slope and things won't get really messy even when the spin stopped, and likely such structures will stop from time to time, either for maintenance or accidents.

Think of a turntable, if you put a marble on it and spin, the marble will fly off the edge, if you have a spinning V-shaped surface, when no spinning the marble will fall to the centre and will stay in a certain height depending on your speed of rotation. The g-force it is experiencing is higher than gravity, and this is what they are doing with a spinning city.

But like I said, no matter how you do it, as long as it is a linear slope(unless, it is a straight cliff), most of the city won't have the maximum gravity you are generating, so most of them will be in low gravity.
If you have something like a gravity well shape(inverse bell), a higher slope in the middle and a smaller slope on the outside, you can get roughly the same gravity, but at a certain slope things are likely to either roll or slide off, so the middle will be cut out and not spin.

Technology wise, they have the power required and electromagnetic means of doing so, and since most creators don't care for actual engineering and economic problems, I guess you have to let those slide.

BTW, Anaheim journal basically ditched the whole rotation idea.
Understood.
So we see this slope spinner only on a pamphlet of 0083.
In all the other series we don't see anything moving or rotating.
In Anaheim Journal they ditched the whole idea.
So I'm inclined to think, after seeing in all series, very few population in comparison of a single colony, that moon cities are higly automatizated and that population go back and forth from moon to colonies from time to time to recover. Like our astronaut that live in the ISS for some month and then they rotate with others.
What do you think about this? Is compatible with what we can see in Gundam in the various series and the general background story? Is possible that the moon is principally a site of automatizated industries and mining facilities instead of host 300 millions? 30 millions of workers and employers on the whole moon seems to me a sufficient number for a higly tecnological society like in Gundam.

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Jameedaark » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:29 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:24 pm
The only lunar settlement I've seen a population figure given for was Von Braun. In Gundam Officials, it's said to be the largest/most populous lunar settlement... home to approximately 50 million people. That'd suggest that the moon's population was somewhere south of 300 million, given the settlements we know about.
Von Braun has a diameter of 6 km and 5 levels.
If you calculate the square km of the city, each level is 18,84 square kilometres.
If you add the five level we have 94,2 square km.
With a density like London of 5000 ab. x km2, we have a population of about 471.000 inhabitants.
With a desity like the center of New York, abaut 10000, we have a max population of 942.000.
50 million people is wrong, I suppose.
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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:43 am

Jameedaark wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:29 am
Von Braun has a diameter of 6 km and 5 levels.
If you calculate the square km of the city, each level is 18,84 square kilometres.
If you add the five level we have 94,2 square km.
With a density like London of 5000 ab. x km2, we have a population of about 471.000 inhabitants.
With a desity like the center of New York, abaut 10000, we have a max population of 942.000.
50 million people is wrong, I suppose.
Regards
As I recall, we had a discussion in the mecha and technology about a similar population density problem for the colonies as well. Unless we have a much more packed situation than any of the official images(basically a mega multi-building instead of a clear open view that occupies a few hundred metres in height), or much more colonies than any sources suggested, there is no way they can get to the settings' population.

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by tHeWasTeDYouTh » Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:59 pm

I saw some of the mini lore videos on the Gundam 08th MS Team and they said that each O'neill colony can hold up to 30 million people. Sadly it did not say how many people a close type colony from Side 3 can hold or how many live in the Lunar cities. Has it ever been started how many people lived in each individual Side? must have been at least 1 billion per side.
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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Jameedaark » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:13 pm

tHeWasTeDYouTh wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:59 pm
I saw some of the mini lore videos on the Gundam 08th MS Team and they said that each O'neill colony can hold up to 30 million people. Sadly it did not say how many people a close type colony from Side 3 can hold or how many live in the Lunar cities. Has it ever been started how many people lived in each individual Side? must have been at least 1 billion per side.
Yes, a colony can hold up many millions but 30 millions are too much.
In Gundam we see that many colony is between 3 and 10 millions.
Each colony (open type) is 325 square km.
With a density like new york of 10000 ab we have 3.250.000 ab.
With a density like manila of 45000 ad we have 15.000.000 ab
With 30.000.000 millions we have a very overpopolated situation with serious problems of food, environment and unemployement. Probably in many colonies this is what has caused disorders and desire to indipendence.
If all the spacenoids had lived comfortably and in socio-economic well-being, the war would not have broken out.

A closed type is similar in population like open type because of problems of environment and food if you double the population, but more economical. But much more unpleasant to live because of the absence of the sky, so after side 3 no other side is made of closed type colonies...

About lore videos, Japanese animators tends to give numbers at random and without think... :lol:

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:13 am

Jameedaark wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:13 pm

Yes, a colony can hold up many millions but 30 millions are too much.
In Gundam we see that many colony is between 3 and 10 millions.
Each colony (open type) is 325 square km.
With a density like new york of 10000 ab we have 3.250.000 ab.
With a density like manila of 45000 ad we have 15.000.000 ab
With 30.000.000 millions we have a very overpopolated situation with serious problems of food, environment and unemployement. Probably in many colonies this is what has caused disorders and desire to indipendence.
If all the spacenoids had lived comfortably and in socio-economic well-being, the war would not have broken out.

A closed type is similar in population like open type because of problems of environment and food if you double the population, but more economical. But much more unpleasant to live because of the absence of the sky, so after side 3 no other side is made of closed type colonies...

About lore videos, Japanese animators tends to give numbers at random and without think... :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17685&p=391866&hil ... on#p391862

This is the original number.
Not really from the lore videos, and is likely what the creators used.

The argument they gave is that they have mastered nuclear fusion as a power source and thus they can fit more people into a colony.
Don't know why that really helps because at the same time they didn't cared about the low density living area they showed in the anime isn't 3 times as dense as what O'Neil proposed.

Food isn't really a problem because they have other colonies for farming, and most of North America has became farm land.(until 0083's colony drop, that is, and by then half of the population has died during OYW so you have less mouths to feed)

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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Jameedaark » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:10 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:13 am
Jameedaark wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:13 pm

Yes, a colony can hold up many millions but 30 millions are too much.
In Gundam we see that many colony is between 3 and 10 millions.
Each colony (open type) is 325 square km.
With a density like new york of 10000 ab we have 3.250.000 ab.
With a density like manila of 45000 ad we have 15.000.000 ab
With 30.000.000 millions we have a very overpopolated situation with serious problems of food, environment and unemployement. Probably in many colonies this is what has caused disorders and desire to indipendence.
If all the spacenoids had lived comfortably and in socio-economic well-being, the war would not have broken out.

A closed type is similar in population like open type because of problems of environment and food if you double the population, but more economical. But much more unpleasant to live because of the absence of the sky, so after side 3 no other side is made of closed type colonies...

About lore videos, Japanese animators tends to give numbers at random and without think... :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17685&p=391866&hil ... on#p391862

This is the original number.
Not really from the lore videos, and is likely what the creators used.

The argument they gave is that they have mastered nuclear fusion as a power source and thus they can fit more people into a colony.
Don't know why that really helps because at the same time they didn't cared about the low density living area they showed in the anime isn't 3 times as dense as what O'Neil proposed.

Food isn't really a problem because they have other colonies for farming, and most of North America has became farm land.(until 0083's colony drop, that is, and by then half of the population has died during OYW so you have less mouths to feed)
Hi, the original oneill numbers on island 3 says millions, not a certain number. Furthermore, it is not clear whether he refers to two ballistically united colonies or one.
However, the calculations are quickly made and if you put 30 million in a colony of 32km x 6.5 you have the density of the worst city in Bangladesh. If you like huge numbers, I prefer to follow Mark Simmons' more reasonable line.

The argument of the population in relation to nuclear energy makes no sense. I speak of density of people per km2.

Food is a problem.
Apart from the fact that there are no farm colonies but it is the rings with the dozens of rotating farms that each colony has, which supply the colony. Furthermore, shipping food from the earth for billions of people is absurd and would cost a monstrous amount.
Furthermore, it is said that the colonies were also exploited for food, indeed they were the ones who sent food to the earth.

I read this post: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17685&p=391866&hil ... on#p391862

For me there are many discutible numbers:
- SIDE 3 has, in many works, 40 colonies.
- Side 5 (Loum) have 42 colonies and is in a Lagragian point instable, like SIDE3, because L1 and L2 are instable points.
- The listed numbers of 40 for every other side is arbitrary. I think that side 1,2,4,6 are about 80-120 colonies each, if not more.
- Side 3 is said in Gundam first serie to have numbers of 1/30th of the rest federation, so 300 million people at most.
- Lunar cities 0.8 billions is riddicolous.
- In Gundam movies is said that half people is in space, so in 0079 6,5 billions on earth and 6,5 in space is more reasonable.

I think many numbers in many books are at most, ZOINKS.
I prefere the suggestion of Mark.
Are far far more reasonable and more coincident with many Gundam anime and book, and common sense.
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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by tHeWasTeDYouTh » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:07 pm

- Side 3 is said in Gundam first serie to have numbers of 1/30th of the rest federation, so 300 million people at most.

Just went to check the Garma funeral speech and Gihren says that the "national resources" of Zeon are 1/30th of the Earth Federation. I think he means that their material resources are 1/30th of the Federation like how Germany/Japan had a massive disadvantage in resources compared to the USA and USSR and still captured large amount of land with their initial attacks during the war but once the Allies counterattack it was a constant retreat.
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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:51 pm

Just gonna throw this out there, but the idea that the colonies are kind of overcrowded sh*tholes is pretty consistent with the whole Universal Century setting being about the Earth elite kicking all the poor people off the planet into a bunch of spaceborne shanty towns so they can live in luxury. That allegation that colonists are second class citizens at best goes all the way from the original series thru Hathaway's Flash.

The few colonies we see up close are the relatively nice ones... either ones that are still under construction and not yet fully populated, ones that are abandoned slums, or ones that are governmental capitals where the political and social elite live. Most of the colonies are probably like that one Dort colony in IBO that was one massive highrise slum district where all the poor workers lived.
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Re: Von Braun and Moon Cities - Gundam

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:27 am

Jameedaark wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:10 am

Hi, the original oneill numbers on island 3 says millions, not a certain number. Furthermore, it is not clear whether he refers to two ballistically united colonies or one.
However, the calculations are quickly made and if you put 30 million in a colony of 32km x 6.5 you have the density of the worst city in Bangladesh. If you like huge numbers, I prefer to follow Mark Simmons' more reasonable line.
You probably only read this: https://space.nss.org/o-neill-cylinder- ... ettlement/

The original numbers I referred to is from this:(which is also quoted in the linked I gave up there)
https://space.nss.org/the-colonization- ... oday-1974/
Please see table 1, Model 4.
A double unit can house 0.2 – 20 x 10^6 population, thus 2 to 20 million in double units, and 1 to 10 million for each cylinder.

He also proposed an even larger cylinder in the earlier paragraph, one with a 16km radius(so basically it is as wide as the model 4's length, or five times as big) which can, in maximum capacity, hold 700 million and call it the ecological limit.
The argument of the population in relation to nuclear energy makes no sense. I speak of density of people per km2.

Food is a problem.
Apart from the fact that there are no farm colonies but it is the rings with the dozens of rotating farms that each colony has, which supply the colony. Furthermore, shipping food from the earth for billions of people is absurd and would cost a monstrous amount.
Furthermore, it is said that the colonies were also exploited for food, indeed they were the ones who sent food to the earth.

I read this post: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17685&p=391866&hil ... on#p391862

For me there are many discutible numbers:
- SIDE 3 has, in many works, 40 colonies.
- Side 5 (Loum) have 42 colonies and is in a Lagragian point instable, like SIDE3, because L1 and L2 are instable points.
- The listed numbers of 40 for every other side is arbitrary. I think that side 1,2,4,6 are about 80-120 colonies each, if not more.
- Side 3 is said in Gundam first serie to have numbers of 1/30th of the rest federation, so 300 million people at most.
- Lunar cities 0.8 billions is riddicolous.
- In Gundam movies is said that half people is in space, so in 0079 6,5 billions on earth and 6,5 in space is more reasonable.

I think many numbers in many books are at most, ZOINKS.
I prefere the suggestion of Mark.
Are far far more reasonable and more coincident with many Gundam anime and book, and common sense.
Bye
If you take the numbers with what the anime shows you the colonies to be like, low density havens, yes, you can never support that much people. Like I have calculated in that post, each person gets about a square ft, everyone will be squeezed to death before anything happens.

In the same O'Neil's proposal, he also gave research of why he thought that is the ecological limit.
"Calculations based on his figures, but assuming an ideal twelve-month season, indicate that the colonies should be able to support 143 people per hectare with a diet of 3000 calories, 52 grams of usable protein and 4.3 pounds of total food per person per day [ref 9]. Much of the protein would come from poultry and pork."

This is way more than my needs, and average calories is around 2,400~2,500 per person on the higher end, let's say that is redundancy in case of accident.
This is still "the corresponding ecological limit for a full-size community would be 20 million people. At this limit, all the colonists would have a high standard of living, but in apartment-house living conditions, looking out over farmland."

Using only the farming area(the ring), the colonies can already support 13 million("For a community limit of 13-million people, the main cylinders could be kept free of agriculture.")

Using the "143 people per hectare" figure, 30 million people will only require 209790 hectares, or 2098 km^2 of agricultural area.
Using my multi-layered proposal, the farm lands can well be place in inner and outer layers of the colony, on top and bottom of the 116 layers, 2098 km^2 is just about 10 layers on average, much less than the living quarters' 116.
(116 layers may sound strange, but consider 116 story buildings, each around 350m in height.)
Using nuclear fusion to generate the power needed for the LED lights to grow crops, you no longer need to limit your planting area to the Sun's power, and while the inner layers might have less gravity, they get much more protection from radiation.
30 or maybe even 60 million(close types) are possible, just not what they showed in anime.(Not even the Ark Performance Gihren's Assassination Plan's high density Zoum city matches that kind of conditions)

Shipping food from Earth to space is absurd using today's technology, but in UC, they are already using thermonuclear rockets and launching heavy vehicles from Earth isn't a rare sight anymore.
Building Space warships on Earth and launching them to space is also pretty absurd with what we have today, but they can easily build and launch 80 ships with 10~60k tons payload to orbit in a year, each only a 2 stage rocket.(And the second stage is the payload itself) We have trouble launching 80 10 tons payload per year now.
Also, Earth doesn't have to support billions, they can have their own farm lands in the colonies, Earth only need to be the redundant supply line in case something fails.
This is already much better than the CE premise of PLANTS cannot grow their own crops, and their food supply is controlled completely by Earth.

That said, I am totally for the idea of having more colonies in each side. That would make the idea much cooler than packing as much people as possible into less colonies.
What I am saying here is just technological possibilities, not desirable ones.
- Side 3 is said in Gundam first serie to have numbers of 1/30th of the rest federation, so 300 million people at most.
No, Gihren said Side 3 only has 1/30 of EF's power, not man power, he is referring to more about economical and resources than population count.
It also has 1/10 of EFF's military power, but way less military personnel and vehicles than EFF.

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