Turn A Theory.

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MetalNeptune479
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Turn A Theory.

Post by MetalNeptune479 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:57 pm

20 years since the release of Turn A Gundam, is Turn A Gundam's Balck History timeline still a thing with the Non U.C gundam series, or has Sunrise, Bandai, or Tomino fell back on the more conventional alternate universe idea with the Non U.C. Gundam series being set in parallel universes?

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:07 pm

MetalNeptune479 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:57 pm
20 years since the release of Turn A Gundam, is Turn A Gundam's Balck History timeline still a thing with the Non U.C gundam series, or has Sunrise, Bandai, or Tomino fell back on the more conventional alternate universe idea with the Non U.C. Gundam series being set in parallel universes?
AFAIK, Sunrise has never recanted the whole Black History thing that was in Turn-A Gundam.

Originally, the Black History only consisted of After Colony, After War, and Future Century with the Cosmic Era being shown outside the diagram.

The 2014 MG Turn-X booklet includes the Cosmic Era, Anno Domini, and Advanced Generation in the Black History.

Yoshiyuki Tomino wasn't consistent about whether Reconguista in G takes place before or after Turn-A, so it's hard to say if it belongs to the Black History or not. IIRC he originally said it occurred before the Correct Century but later changed his mind and said it was a thousand or so years after the Correct Century.

The Post-Disaster era from Iron-Blooded Orphans is also not placed, but some contextual hints suggest it's also probably a Black History period. The use of nano-materials in Mobile Suit construction feels like a lead-up to things like the nanomachines in the Anno Domini era and nanomechanical Devil Gundam in the Future Century, and there's the Operation British crater visible in Australia's coastline in the worldmap shown in the first season.
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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by MetalNeptune479 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:12 pm

I see. I was hoping they'd take a note from Marvel or DC and make the non-UC installments "elseworlds" series. One of my takes on it is the producers want to go the tragedy route with the every bittersweet ending being rendered moot and the moonlight butterfly apocalypse being the penultimate disaster.

On one hand I can see the reason for the technological inconsistencies being due to the wars being so calamitous, most technology doesn't survive, leading to humanity having to pick up from what they have. Though when comparing Wing to SEED the only recognizable machines in the After Colony era are Gundam MS, while the Cosmic Era at least references Zeonic MS design and has some Island 3 colonies which are not seen in AC era. Because of this It is hard to tell which Non-UC Gundam series precedes the other.

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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by E08 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:07 pm
... The use of nano-materials in Mobile Suit construction feels like a lead-up to things like the nanomachines in the Anno Domini era and nanomechanical Devil Gundam in the Future Century, and there's the Operation British crater visible in Australia's coastline in the worldmap shown in the first season.
The crater in Australia in IBO might have been from Dainsleif bombardment. The bombardments are said to be the reason for the change in the moon's shape (?).

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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:35 am

MetalNeptune479 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:12 pm
I see. I was hoping they'd take a note from Marvel or DC and make the non-UC installments "elseworlds" series. One of my takes on it is the producers want to go the tragedy route with the every bittersweet ending being rendered moot and the moonlight butterfly apocalypse being the penultimate disaster.
That's Gundam for ya... every triumph is at-best bittersweet because of all the loss of life and destruction, and humanity is damned to keep repeating the same mistakes until it achieves a deeper level of communication and understanding like the Newtype colony-turned-generation ship Dandelion that left the Sol system on a self-elected mission to colonize Proxima Centauri in Mobile Suit Victory Gundam: Outside Story.

The one and only truly happy ending in Gundam was that one... where Judau Ashta and an entire colony of Newtypes said "F*ck this sh*t, we're out" and spent five centuries flying to Proxima Centauri to get away from the Earth and its constant self-destructive behavior.


MetalNeptune479 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:12 pm
On one hand I can see the reason for the technological inconsistencies being due to the wars being so calamitous, most technology doesn't survive, leading to humanity having to pick up from what they have.
More severe than that, the Moonlight Butterfly activation is indicated to wipe out all advanced technology in the solar system... at least as far out as Jupiter. Humanity basically gets catapulted back to pre-industrial status on each activation of the Moonlight Butterfly. The only technology that doesn't get wiped out is buried or specially shielded against the nanomachines... which is possibly how constructs like Venus Globe survived, given that that installation has been around at least long enough to figure out how to build new mobile suits equipped with that devastating weapon like the G-Lucifer.


MetalNeptune479 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:12 pm
Though when comparing Wing to SEED the only recognizable machines in the After Colony era are Gundam MS, while the Cosmic Era at least references Zeonic MS design and has some Island 3 colonies which are not seen in AC era. Because of this It is hard to tell which Non-UC Gundam series precedes the other.
True, and it's not even clear that the Universal Century was the first go-around since we don't know when exactly the Turn-X drifted into the Sol system and was reverse-engineered to create the Turn-A.


E08 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 am
The crater in Australia in IBO might have been from Dainsleif bombardment. The bombardments are said to be the reason for the change in the moon's shape (?).
If it was from Dainsleif bombardment I'd expect the crater to be a lot smaller and there to be a lot more of them than just the one... sustained Dainsleif bombardment was what changed the shape of the moon.
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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by MetalNeptune479 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:25 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:35 am
MetalNeptune479 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:12 pm
I see. I was hoping they'd take a note from Marvel or DC and make the non-UC installments "elseworlds" series. One of my takes on it is the producers want to go the tragedy route with the every bittersweet ending being rendered moot and the moonlight butterfly apocalypse being the penultimate disaster.
That's Gundam for ya... every triumph is at-best bittersweet because of all the loss of life and destruction, and humanity is damned to keep repeating the same mistakes until it achieves a deeper level of communication and understanding like the Newtype colony-turned-generation ship Dandelion that left the Sol system on a self-elected mission to colonize Proxima Centauri in Mobile Suit Victory Gundam: Outside Story.

The one and only truly happy ending in Gundam was that one... where Judau Ashta and an entire colony of Newtypes said "F*ck this sh*t, we're out" and spent five centuries flying to Proxima Centauri to get away from the Earth and its constant self-destructive behavior.


MetalNeptune479 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:12 pm
On one hand I can see the reason for the technological inconsistencies being due to the wars being so calamitous, most technology doesn't survive, leading to humanity having to pick up from what they have.
More severe than that, the Moonlight Butterfly activation is indicated to wipe out all advanced technology in the solar system... at least as far out as Jupiter. Humanity basically gets catapulted back to pre-industrial status on each activation of the Moonlight Butterfly. The only technology that doesn't get wiped out is buried or specially shielded against the nanomachines... which is possibly how constructs like Venus Globe survived, given that that installation has been around at least long enough to figure out how to build new mobile suits equipped with that devastating weapon like the G-Lucifer.


MetalNeptune479 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:12 pm
Though when comparing Wing to SEED the only recognizable machines in the After Colony era are Gundam MS, while the Cosmic Era at least references Zeonic MS design and has some Island 3 colonies which are not seen in AC era. Because of this It is hard to tell which Non-UC Gundam series precedes the other.
True, and it's not even clear that the Universal Century was the first go-around since we don't know when exactly the Turn-X drifted into the Sol system and was reverse-engineered to create the Turn-A.


E08 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 am
The crater in Australia in IBO might have been from Dainsleif bombardment. The bombardments are said to be the reason for the change in the moon's shape (?).
If it was from Dainsleif bombardment I'd expect the crater to be a lot smaller and there to be a lot more of them than just the one... sustained Dainsleif bombardment was what changed the shape of the moon.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:35 am
The one and only truly happy ending in Gundam was that one... where Judau Ashta and an entire colony of Newtypes said "F*ck this sh*t, we're out" and spent five centuries flying to Proxima Centauri to get away from the Earth and its constant self-destructive behavior.
And that happy ending rides on the hope of whether or not the Dandelion Colonists made it to their new home, but if the crews descendants didn't have infighting from within and turned the Proxima Centauri system into another war zone.

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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:35 pm

MetalNeptune479 wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:25 pm
And that happy ending rides on the hope of whether or not the Dandelion Colonists made it to their new home, but if the crews descendants didn't have infighting from within and turned the Proxima Centauri system into another war zone.
Well, said epilogue does indicate the Dandelion colony did successfully colonize the Proxima Centauri system in UC 0653... and as an all-Newtype colony they should be able to resolve their differences without being weaponized the way they fled the Earth Sphere to avoid.

Of course, they could also potentially be the origin of the Turn-X, which would mean someone f*cked up somewhere.
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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by Kuruni » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:56 pm

The first two Heisei Kamen Rider (Kuuga and Agito) are interesting in that there're hints of them being in the same continuity (mostly of the gears used by G3 team) but there's no explicitly stated to be in the same continuity. When Decade rolled in, the alternate reality version of both show dispaly the similar quirk of the original. AR Agito World has some more specific elements from AR Kuuga World (Grongi kaijin from Kuuga appear and hunted down by Lord, Agito's local kaijin, and one charatcer play major role in both worlds), but now they're clearly in two different worlds. By the end of Decade all the worlds connected, so the two series that may or may not be in the same continuity and their two alternate versions which are clearly in different continuities are now coexist together in one big, but separated continuity.

Or think of Macross, which DYRL is in-universe movie, but it's different from DYRL we known.

Get it? I thibk Black History is like that. It has everything, but it is different from what we known.
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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:23 am

Kuruni wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:56 pm
The first two Heisei Kamen Rider (Kuuga and Agito) are interesting in that there're hints of them being in the same continuity (mostly of the gears used by G3 team) but there's no explicitly stated to be in the same continuity. When Decade rolled in, the alternate reality version of both show dispaly the similar quirk of the original. AR Agito World has some more specific elements from AR Kuuga World (Grongi kaijin from Kuuga appear and hunted down by Lord, Agito's local kaijin, and one charatcer play major role in both worlds), but now they're clearly in two different worlds. By the end of Decade all the worlds connected, so the two series that may or may not be in the same continuity and their two alternate versions which are clearly in different continuities are now coexist together in one big, but separated continuity.

Or think of Macross, which DYRL is in-universe movie, but it's different from DYRL we known.

Get it? I thibk Black History is like that. It has everything, but it is different from what we known.
The canon of what we know of in each timeline are all slightly different than any of the shows, because of the continuum of mixing different shows together. They are treated more like individual documentaries than actual events from god's view.

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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:20 am

Kuruni wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:56 pm
The first two Heisei Kamen Rider (Kuuga and Agito) are interesting in that there're hints of them being in the same continuity (mostly of the gears used by G3 team) but there's no explicitly stated to be in the same continuity. [...] so the two series that may or may not be in the same continuity and their two alternate versions which are clearly in different continuities are now coexist together in one big, but separated continuity.
Er... no. That's an "Alternate Universe" setting. By definition, that means you have more than one continuity and they're separate from each other. They each have their own separate timelines that are distinct from each other.

That is the polar opposite of Gundam's "Black History".


Kuruni wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:56 pm
Or think of Macross, which DYRL is in-universe movie, but it's different from DYRL we known.
That's also a bad example. Do You Remember Love? is an in-universe work of historical drama, and the two shots we see in Macross 7 that weren't in the 1984 film could easily be explained away as being deleted scenes from an extended/alternate cut of the film, a remake, or even a sequel. (Variable Fighter Master File suggests DYRL was itself a sequel to an earlier in-universe film that depicted the events of the Macross's escape from Earth.)


Kuruni wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:56 pm
Get it? I thibk Black History is like that. It has everything, but it is different from what we known.
Neither of those is anything like how the Black History is described or depicted. Namely, that all Gundam - with the exception of the Build shows - exist in a single universe and timeline with the various calendars separated by many millennia and the recurring unnatural disaster that is the Moonlight Butterfly's activation. There's no basis to argue that the Black History is some unseen different version of those shows.
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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by MetalNeptune479 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:37 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:35 pm
MetalNeptune479 wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:25 pm
And that happy ending rides on the hope of whether or not the Dandelion Colonists made it to their new home, but if the crews descendants didn't have infighting from within and turned the Proxima Centauri system into another war zone.
Well, said epilogue does indicate the Dandelion colony did successfully colonize the Proxima Centauri system in UC 0653... and as an all-Newtype colony they should be able to resolve their differences without being weaponized the way they fled the Earth Sphere to avoid.

Of course, they could also potentially be the origin of the Turn-X, which would mean someone f*cked up somewhere.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:35 pm
Of course, they could also potentially be the origin of the Turn-X, which would mean someone f*cked up somewhere.
Another Idea for the Origin of the Turn X was that a inactive fragment of the Devil Gundam drifted off into space after the events of G Gundam and after several centuries, if not millennia, a ELS probe came in contact with the dormant DG cells and merged with the tech and integrated its information into itself.

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Re: Turn A Theory.

Post by Kuruni » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:34 am

Well, that was epic fail, so lets I try less wordy version.

I think that Black History/CC is still AU, but it's one that has every other timelines happened as part of the Black History. It's probably identical, or slighly different, but we don't get to see it in detail anyway. Afterall, we usually have different depiction of the same event from the same show (TV/Movie) so just one more version isn't that big deal.
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