Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

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abaoaqu
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Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by abaoaqu » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 am

Over the course of work on my project I was asked this:
Also this is just speculation but I think, let's say El Paso citizens as a example would probably be afraid to rise against Zeon, They drop a entire colony, murdered millions of they own people, for a strategic victory against the Federation. This are your overlords and you ask if they willing kill they own people in such magnitude, what would happen if El Paso decide to rebel against the invaders?

Now to be fair my knowledge of Gundam is very rough, so I don't now how Zeon treat people in occupied territories. But since they need resources they probably use the occupied people as miners or drones.
The idea of Island Iffish being Zeon's own people is sketchy: they weren't part of Zeon, both fell under the classification of Spacenoids. Then again, the way he words it could also apply to Sydney.

While there possibility of militias with occupied zones is nothing unheard of (Francis Marion during the American Revolution, the French Underground of WWII, etc.), I wouldn't be surprised if such efforts only yielded middling results. After all, the Zeon Earth Expeditionary Forces had Dopps, Magella Attacks, Gaws, Zaku IIs, etc.; a few guys in the badlands armed with hunting rifles or even nabbed RPGs would most certainly be at a loss if mobile suits were thrown into the mix.
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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:58 am

abaoaqu wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 am
The idea of Island Iffish being Zeon's own people is sketchy: they weren't part of Zeon, both fell under the classification of Spacenoids. Then again, the way he words it could also apply to Sydney.
Zeon did claim to stand for the rights of all Spacenoids... so that might be enough to count offing the population of Iffish as killing their own people, or at least the people whose rights and liberties they claimed to hold dear.

abaoaqu wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 am
While there possibility of militias with occupied zones is nothing unheard of (Francis Marion during the American Revolution, the French Underground of WWII, etc.), I wouldn't be surprised if such efforts only yielded middling results. After all, the Zeon Earth Expeditionary Forces had Dopps, Magella Attacks, Gaws, Zaku IIs, etc.; a few guys in the badlands armed with hunting rifles or even nabbed RPGs would most certainly be at a loss if mobile suits were thrown into the mix.
Given how ineffective even high-end anti-Mobile Suit man-portable missile systems were shown to be against Zeon mobile suits, I'd expect any resistance efforts would be focused less on combat and more on collecting actionable intelligence to be smuggled to the Federation Forces.

We don't really get to see much of Zeon-occupied territory where civilian populations are concerned, but they did appear to be treating the wealthy locals reasonably well in the area Garma was overseeing before he died messily.
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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by abaoaqu » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:37 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:58 am
abaoaqu wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 am
The idea of Island Iffish being Zeon's own people is sketchy: they weren't part of Zeon, both fell under the classification of Spacenoids. Then again, the way he words it could also apply to Sydney.
Zeon did claim to stand for the rights of all Spacenoids... so that might be enough to count offing the population of Iffish as killing their own people, or at least the people whose rights and liberties they claimed to hold dear.

abaoaqu wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 am
While there possibility of militias with occupied zones is nothing unheard of (Francis Marion during the American Revolution, the French Underground of WWII, etc.), I wouldn't be surprised if such efforts only yielded middling results. After all, the Zeon Earth Expeditionary Forces had Dopps, Magella Attacks, Gaws, Zaku IIs, etc.; a few guys in the badlands armed with hunting rifles or even nabbed RPGs would most certainly be at a loss if mobile suits were thrown into the mix.
Given how ineffective even high-end anti-Mobile Suit man-portable missile systems were shown to be against Zeon mobile suits, I'd expect any resistance efforts would be focused less on combat and more on collecting actionable intelligence to be smuggled to the Federation Forces.

We don't really get to see much of Zeon-occupied territory where civilian populations are concerned, but they did appear to be treating the wealthy locals reasonably well in the area Garma was overseeing before he died messily.
Yes, I always imagined that if a city in the region attempted to overthrow Zeon control in the area, there would have been a repeat of the Yaroslavl Uprising, but faster.


He also says this:
Although it would make sense most people of North America are starving, accord to FANDOM they objective in the continent was to destroy the industrial complex of Earth and cut off the food supply, doesn't help they capture most of the food necessary for survival across the world.

So I imagine in occupied territories the situation for the daily life citizen is grim if you don't collaborate with Zeon.
It's known that nothing in Gundam is black-and-white: we have Zeons who are decent people like Ramba Ral and the two pilots from "Winds of War" and crappy Federation types like the drunks who broke into Amuro's mother's house and bossed around that town (not to mention Bask Om later down the line). I do wish we had more on civilian life in an occupied zone, but I've mostly gone with data from Nazi-occupied Paris for ideas, here.
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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by Chris » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:05 pm

abaoaqu wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 am
The idea of Island Iffish being Zeon's own people is sketchy: they weren't part of Zeon, both fell under the classification of Spacenoids. Then again, the way he words it could also apply to Sydney.
If you wanted a different example of Zeon's cruelty, I'd point to them having no trouble forcibly displacing 1.5 million of their own citizens in the Mahal colony to turn it into the Solar Ray. I'm sure not all the Zeon soldiers were nice and friendly during this massive forced evacuation. Given how packed Side 3 was, what did they plan to do with these people? Where did they put them? Were they just tossed aside as refugees in their own Side?

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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by abaoaqu » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:56 pm

Chris wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:05 pm
abaoaqu wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 am
The idea of Island Iffish being Zeon's own people is sketchy: they weren't part of Zeon, both fell under the classification of Spacenoids. Then again, the way he words it could also apply to Sydney.
If you wanted a different example of Zeon's cruelty, I'd point to them having no trouble forcibly displacing 1.5 million of their own citizens in the Mahal colony to turn it into the Solar Ray. I'm sure not all the Zeon soldiers were nice and friendly during this massive forced evacuation. Given how packed Side 3 was, what did they plan to do with these people? Where did they put them? Were they just tossed aside as refugees in their own Side?
Yes, I recall. Probably had the Kycilia Secret Agency interrogate the bulk of the less cooperative ones and send them to a Gulag... if they were lucky.
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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by False Prophet » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:18 am

Say, I have always wondering how did the EFF get the Zaku to make into Zanny? Did their agents steal them, they captured them after raids, or rebuiled from parts scattered parts on the battlefield?

Also, for every Gamma who tried to play nice with the political establishment, I imagine two other Zeons who bumbled around and angered the local powers so much that they become the resistance. Wasn't Icelina's father a resistance in Origin too?

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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:52 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:18 am
Say, I have always wondering how did the EFF get the Zaku to make into Zanny? Did their agents steal them, they captured them after raids, or rebuiled from parts scattered parts on the battlefield?
From what I've seen and read, the EFF obtained a fair number of Zaku I and Zaku II units by recovering Zakus the Zeon troops abandoned on the battlefield after they were disabled by fire from Federation M61 tanks and missile teams. All they had to do was combine parts from different wrecks until they had a working Zaku. I'd expect a few were probably stolen from various Zeon bases or depots, or taken intact from surrendering troops.

Quite frankly, as often as the Principality's defense industry sabotaged itself I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if a number of Zakus ended up in Federation hands as part of some ploy by Zimmad to undermine their rival. We saw that Zeonic was willing to take its part in their rivalry far enough to actually hurt the Principality itself in order to damage its competition, leaking development data from Zimmad's EMS-10 Zudah program directly to Federation authorities (who lost no time using it to fatally undermine Zeon's propaganda).
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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by yazi88 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:15 pm

We saw in MS Igloo 1 episode 2 that there were some Zaku II's that were captured/repaired from various parts and used by Federation pilots on Earth, and that was still in the early months of the OYW.

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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:17 am

Chris wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:05 pm
If you wanted a different example of Zeon's cruelty, I'd point to them having no trouble forcibly displacing 1.5 million of their own citizens in the Mahal colony to turn it into the Solar Ray. I'm sure not all the Zeon soldiers were nice and friendly during this massive forced evacuation. Given how packed Side 3 was, what did they plan to do with these people? Where did they put them? Were they just tossed aside as refugees in their own Side?
From the Zeon point of view, the Mahal people are outsiders, which are those that only defected EF territory to Zeon right before the war. Although they did managed to get recruited into the Zeon forces, they treatment is anything but nice from various stories. Cima's fleet in 0083, forgot the name but the pilot of GM Camof in MS Igloo manga both showed that even the nicer ones in the Zeon military aren't really friendly to them and little to none believed their loyalty.(Which is why Cima defected back to EF to begin with)

And about how packed is Side 3 at the time, likely not really too packed.
In Gihren assassin plan, eventhough it is just a 0090 movie in-universe, they likely depicted Zeon having large area of the city emptied and with random lighting up to faked population even in Zum City, likely to comfort citizens into a fake sense of safety.
So they likely have enough space to just move in the Mahal people, whether they will do so without reluctance is entirely another story. Then of course, there are also tons of wasted colonies out there they trashed, so they can "convince" the Mahal people to just move there if need be.
abaoaqu wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 am
The idea of Island Iffish being Zeon's own people is sketchy: they weren't part of Zeon, both fell under the classification of Spacenoids. Then again, the way he words it could also apply to Sydney.
About the Sydney drop, may I remind you that the colony drop was not aiming at Sydney, but Jaburo, where EFF's HQ is located. I guess no matter how lenient you put the terms, EFF would never fall into the category of protectee of Zeon forces. Sydney and the totality of 2 billion who died on Earth caused by the colony drop that isn't EFF personel is just unlucky.

The occupation area seems to be relatively normal or maybe even better than EF rule.
We see Garma Zabi holding ball nights for the rich, having his own romance with local rich girl.
We also see relatively peaceful field hospital patrols of Zeon soldiers not being rude but just doing their jobs.
The poor can earn a living for the Zeon forces by being a spy, which she wouldn't have such luck with the more burrecratic EF.

The problem of Earth is that EF has moved too many people away from it without good reorganization of the infrastructure and support to smaller local population pockets.
A lot of them have to fall back to rural living styles, without commercial and economic activities, which is shown not only in MSG, but also in Zeta, ZZ, V to even Unicorn(at least the novel, can't remember if any is shown in CCA).
The main cities are still fine to an extend,(Probably not Belfast) but not everyone can find a living there.

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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by Captain Anonymous » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:08 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:17 am
drop was not aiming at Sydney, but Jaburo, where EFF's HQ is located. I guess no matter how lenient you put the terms, EFF would never fall into the category of protectee of Zeon forces. Sydney and the totality of 2 billion who died on Earth caused by the colony drop that isn't EFF personel is just unlucky.

The occupation area seems to be relatively normal or maybe even better than EF rule.
We see Garma Zabi holding ball nights for the rich, having his own romance with local rich girl.
We also see relatively peaceful field hospital patrols of Zeon soldiers not being rude but just doing their jobs.
The poor can earn a living for the Zeon forces by being a spy, which she wouldn't have such luck with the more burrecratic EF.
Ummm. No. If you're talking about Miharu from Mobile Suit Gundam, and you're saying things are better for her as a spy? The Zeon sent her on a suicide mission. The Zeon had no issues about leaving her to die on the White Base. So you're saying the Federation is bad for not sending her on suicide mission? Even so, spies face many problems, and old age is usually not among them.

The Zeon soldiers patrolling a field hospital. And those people in said hospital why now? That kid they bribed with chocolate would disagree things were better.
How about the town of St Anges?

The Zeon were not nice. A lot of people died as a result. Sure there were decent people in their ranks. Sure the Federation had lots of issues.

The Zeon gassed fellow spacenoids. They didn't seem to care much about civilians at Side Six or breaking treaties there.
Sure the Federation is bad. But the Zeon are pretty much evil.

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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by MythSearcher » Wed May 01, 2019 11:45 pm

Captain Anonymous wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:08 pm
Ummm. No. If you're talking about Miharu from Mobile Suit Gundam, and you're saying things are better for her as a spy? The Zeon sent her on a suicide mission. The Zeon had no issues about leaving her to die on the White Base. So you're saying the Federation is bad for not sending her on suicide mission? Even so, spies face many problems, and old age is usually not among them.

The Zeon soldiers patrolling a field hospital. And those people in said hospital why now? That kid they bribed with chocolate would disagree things were better.
How about the town of St Anges?

The Zeon were not nice. A lot of people died as a result. Sure there were decent people in their ranks. Sure the Federation had lots of issues.

The Zeon gassed fellow spacenoids. They didn't seem to care much about civilians at Side Six or breaking treaties there.
Sure the Federation is bad. But the Zeon are pretty much evil.
The problem is that if not for Zeon, she'd probably have died of starvation before the show. Belfast wasn't in a good state at the time, and it didn't look like that is because of the war either. She was a spy before the suicidal mission and that is what kept her and her family alive, at least that is what the show implied. This does not show the Zeon being nice, but it does show the EF isn't nice.(Yet it is also one of the few scenes where EFF soldiers seemed to be nicer, so it goes both ways)

Yes, the Zeon were not nice overall, but neither is the Federation.
Like I said in that post, from MSG to Unicorn, we all see various problems on Earth which are attributed to EF being so bureaucratic and cared little about its subjects. While the Zeon being bad overall, at least some of the individual soldiers are nice. Not saying EFF soldiers aren't, but seems like less of them are shown on screen and likely they can do less as they likely have to serve in the same area for longer and it will be easier to enforce stricter rules by higher-ups.
Unicorn especially mentioned this at least in the novel, that the EF had left pockets of rural area under-supported, which is inline with the previous shows of individuals living in poverty seemly even without electric power and didn't like EFF soldiers to a point of not responding them when talked to.

And yes, I totally agree the Zeon is pure evil in gassing and nuking fellow spacenoids, and I do not mean that the colony drop isn't evil, just that it is also not in their foresight that it will drop on Sydney causing much more destruction to civilians when they aimed it at Jaburo.

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Re: Regarding Zeon Occupation of North America

Post by Captain Anonymous » Fri May 03, 2019 4:20 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:45 pm
The problem is that if not for Zeon, she'd probably have died of starvation before the show. Belfast wasn't in a good state at the time, and it didn't look like that is because of the war either. She was a spy before the suicidal mission and that is what kept her and her family alive, at least that is what the show implied. This does not show the Zeon being nice, but it does show the EF isn't nice.(Yet it is also one of the few scenes where EFF soldiers seemed to be nicer, so it goes both ways)

Yes, the Zeon were not nice overall, but neither is the Federation.
Like I said in that post, from MSG to Unicorn, we all see various problems on Earth which are attributed to EF being so bureaucratic and cared little about its subjects. While the Zeon being bad overall, at least some of the individual soldiers are nice. Not saying EFF soldiers aren't, but seems like less of them are shown on screen and likely they can do less as they likely have to serve in the same area for longer and it will be easier to enforce stricter rules by higher-ups.
Unicorn especially mentioned this at least in the novel, that the EF had left pockets of rural area under-supported, which is inline with the previous shows of individuals living in poverty seemly even without electric power and didn't like EFF soldiers to a point of not responding them when talked to.


[/quote]

A lot of the problems on Earth were indeed caused by the colony drop. According to the Gundam the Origin anime, the colony drop is what left the Earth in ruins. The Zeons are the ones who dropped it. Climate change and coastal areas were wiped out. I'd a lot of the problems in Belfast were due to the colony drop. Tons of the Federation infrastructure was gone. Climate change probably destroyed crops. The Zeon caused the suffering on Earth. Yeah, the Federation is corrupt and has problems. But the Earth is a mess because of the Zeon dropping the colony.

Fact that Zeon were aiming for Jaburo and missed does not absolve them still dropping it.

If you want to look at Gundam Unicorn and Post OYW Earth, Delaz Fleet destroyed a chunk of the North American grain regions. Haman destroyed Dublin. Char dropped 5th Luna on Llasa Tibet. The Federation is probably doing a lousy job of keeping people Fed and building infrastructure since the Zeon keep dropping objects on Earth.

People like Miharu are helpful to the Zeon to fight the war. What about after? Once the Zeon one the war, What do you think they would do to Earth? I'd imagine wipe out people and strip mine the Earth. Once people like Miharu have served their purpose, the Zeon would probably kill or abandon them.

The Zeon were war criminals from the start of war. No matter how much a cold bureaucracy the Federation is, the Earth definitely not in better hands with the Zeon.

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