Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

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Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:21 am

It's no secret that Haman's sudden infatuation with Judau seems to have come from nowhere, and ultimately is forced as a major plotline whenever Haman shows up. There's also Haman's previous obsession with Char, which also seemed somewhat forced at times.

While I can't rule out that Haman may have indeed been that infatuated with both, a few things have got me thinking if there could have been more to this:

-First and foremost, Mashymre Cello, who is initially depicted as a young and foolish officer, is given command of his own ship. Early own he proves to be quite incompetent, and we can't but wonder if his devotion to Haman is the only reason he got the job. Indeed he's shown to be in love with Haman from the beginning and even after being converted into a Cyber Newtype. More importantly, early on he's given a AMX-103 prototype which, had an incomplete quasi-psycommu system. I've been thinking if perhaps the real reason he got the job and Hamma Hamma was because he had some latent Newtype potential, which led Haman to give him a position of power to gain his favor (as if she needed to...) and a newtype machine that an old type would not be able to operate as intended, but perhaps a latent newtype might be able to make up for the incomplete system.

-There's also the case of Chara, who is even more incompetent than Mashymre and seems to be missing a screw, but makes up by having more developed newtype abilities. Before joining up with Mashymre and the Endra, Character supposedly led her own ship, the red-colored Endra class Fundra (or Landra by some sources) in a similar mission as Mashymre's.

My point is, that Haman, or rather Axis/Neo Zeon might have been starving for newtypes, and anyone that seem to have latent newtype capabilities was given such positions of power despite their actual capabilities as a soldier.

Then there's the case of Glemy, who first shows up as basically Gaza C pilot #5 but a few episodes alter reappears as an officer with his own custom MS and his own ship, the Mindra (later replaced by the Sandra). Soon after the story leads Judau and the Argama to Axis, where they first run into Ple's AMX-004-2 before she's actually introduced the next episode. This makes me think that Glemy's promotion could likely be the result of adding Elpeo Ple, a newtype pilot, to Haman's ranks. Also, considering that Glemy doesn't openly shows his whole army of Ple clones until much later, it would seem that finding more newtype pilot was indeed very highly praised.

Speaking of the AMX-004-2, I still have the pet theory that Axis did had the resources to mass produce the AMX-004 and/or the Mk II, but lacked newtype pilots to operate them. I base this on the existence of more Mk II units, namely Ple Two's and the unit form Gundam Evolve, but also from the color scheme of the black AMX-004G units, which I suspect were upgraded from existing Qubeleys. After all, let's remember that even units like the Quin Mantha and Geymalk are oddly enough classified as mass production units. In such case, perhaps it might not be too-farfetched to assume that there was an hangar in Axis filled with a bunch of shiny new AMX-004/AMX-004-2 units that were just gathering dust due to a lack of pilots for them, at least until the Ple clones entered the picture.

I'm also considering that despite Haman already suspecting Glemy's impending betrayal after their return to Side 3, he was still allowed access to Axis after presenting Ple Two, another newtype pilot, possibly under the excuse of doing further research on the Qubeley's, resulting in the remote controlled AMX-004-3 which Ple Two might have had painted in a different color scheme as to differentiate it from her original's unit, which she had fought and destroyed on Earth. This gave Glemy Axis to all the new prototypes, including the Qubeleys, Doven Wolfs and even the Quin Mantha. Regarding the later, I still dig the idea of Haman being supposed to get her own NZ-000 as shown in some old artwork.

It's also worth mentioning the extensive reconstruction and modification of the captured RX-80 Pale Rider, which became the AMX-018 Todesritter and combined the features of many AMX units. While technically not an actual newtype unit, and supposedly the HADES system remaining a black box, it was upgraded far beyond any OYW Zeon MS.

There's also the odd case of Illia Pazom, who seems to be Haman's most level-headed newtype. She appears late on the story supervising the enhanced Mashymre, in a role analog to the Lance brothers who supervise the reconditioned Chara. The later once served as Haman's personal bodyguards according to the background of their AMX-117 units. It's possible that Illia also served in apportion close to Haman, before she was required to keep a tight leash upon one of Haman's brand new cyber-newtypes.

Taking all these into consideration, I wonder if Haman's infatuation with Char and Judau could have simply been more about adding more newtypes to her army. Despite Axis having advanced newtype technology, and even seemingly enough resources as to mass produce such newtype machines, they clearly faced a lack a quality pilots, and even more so of newtypes for their specialized machines. In the end, Haman's obsession would prove to be her fall, allowing Glemy to take over Axis and revolt, while also making an enemy out of Judau.

Food for thought: Perhaps the development of the Doven Wolf and its quasi-psycommu system was further pushed ahead as way to overcome the obstacle that a lack of newtypes represented, specially if we consider that such units should be rather expensive to build even in small number, let alone mass produce, due to their extensive weaponry, high output generators and experimental systems. Following that train of thought, I can't help but think that perhaps Axis/1st Neo Zeon's vast resources could be the legacy of M'Quve, who supposedly shipped enough resources from Odessa as to allow Zeon to fight for another 10 years (a bonus clip from 08th MS team make it sound more epic by claiming that he didn't gave up the base until every resource-loaded transport launched into space). Ironically, it was right after this conflict that Neo Zeon movements taking place more than 10 years after the OYW, would become much smaller in size and available resources, thus making M'Quve's words seemingly become true and eerily accurate.

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Re: Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

Post by False Prophet » Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:53 am

If you think about it, all of the Newtype research Zeon had amassed during OYW had all been taken away by the Federation (Augusta lab, their Cyber Newtypes, etc.) The Char's Deleted Affair manga shows that not many scientists made it to Axis. Could this have contributed to the lack of Newtype being discovered in Axis?

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Re: Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

Post by EFSF Pilot » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:35 pm

I think that the rag-tag formation of Zeonic combat vets that refused to surrender after the OYW played a factor. The population was skilled oldtypes and Doven-wolf was the answer to maximize their skills.

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Re: Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:34 pm

When it comes to Haman and Judau, it seems to follow a trend on (Cyber) Newtypes being drawn towards other (strong) Newtypes while also there seeming to be some sort of "first come, first serve" thing that goes on where it seems like such Newtypes are just incapable of moving on to other Newtypes, as if the first one is their eternal soulmate or something, hence the "if I only had met you first" lines like Lalah to Amuro or Haman to Judau (who, ironically, both met Char first), and could also explain the extremely fast romance between Kamille and Four as well as the "triangle" of Char, Quess, and Gyunei in CCA.
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Re: Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:45 am

I must admit I'm likely not up to date on the retcons that could have occurred to the canon as far as what did the EF actually managed to capture from the Principality of Zeon's newtype research and weapons, specially anything that didn't show up in animated works.

AFAIK, originally the EF only managed to capture the Zeong's blueprints, which served as the cornerstone of their entire newtype research.. Thunderbolt, which I assume is a separate universe, takes this a step further by having the EF capture unfinished Zeong units.

I know that some mangas, such as Ecole Du Ciel, would seem to claim that the EF also got ahold the research from the Flanagan Institute. I'm not certain which of those claims might actually be considered canon, and also I'm mostly unaware of any similar claims that might have popped in mangas such as Advance of Zeta and sub-series, which I have yet to read.

As for the pilots among Axis/Neo Zeon ranks, the general consensus seems to be that their average pilots were young and unskilled. Even if we would like to assume that ZZ's humor was a factor in the depicted skill of the pilots in the series, this is also evident during Zeta, namely during the AEUG's operation to capture Gryps which was currently under Axis control. By the end of ZZ, soldier quality do seems to improve though: I particularly remember a scene of Mashymre giving a speech on board the Endra II heading towards Axis, giving a speech to his soldiers. We are given a quick tour of the ship and instead of young skinny soldiers like Glemy (who early on was a good example of your typical young and unskilled Zeon soldier) we are shown a bunch of brawny serious-looking soldiers, more like Rakan.

At first, the whole "newtype soulmate" sounds reasonable based on the aforementioned cases, but considering that Haman seemed to have a much deeper contact with Kamille, even sharing each other's memories, I'm not entirely convinced that's necessarily the case.

Now, being fair, even during the OYW there were not many newtypes among Zeon: Char, Challia Bull and Lalah are the most well-known. The Gihren Greed games showed a Newtype Corps that included them, plus Cuzco Al and Marion Welch (who are mentioned in more than one manga/novel/game), for a total of five. After that we have newtypes that appear only in their particular story: Yahagi Franziback, Annerose Rosenheim, Serein Experi, etc.

Tomino's novel probably had one of the largest newtype corps: at one point Zeon's newtype corps consists on an Elmeth and 6 Rick Doms, all with newtype pilots. After another battle the Elmeth is lost along 2 Rick Doms (it's also implied that a 3rd Rick Dom pilot was lost or unable to continue), and they are reinforced with Braw Bro, 5 Zakus and 7 newtype pilots (these supposedly came form a pool of 20 or so newtype candaites). Adding Lalah who was lost along her elmer earlier in the story, this means that basically 15 newtype pilots went through this version of the 300th Newtype corps.

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Re: Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

Post by Zeonista » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:52 am

With regards to Haman's obsession, it should be perpetually noted that Newtype ESP power is supposed to enable communication between individuals. Haman is a powerful Newtype, so her ability to sync with other Newtypes like Camille and the off-the-charts Judau shouldn't be a surprise as a story element. It does come across as a surprise in-story, but that is part of the human element both delightful and exasperating. ZZ unfortunately gets wrong-footed early on and an interesting development of Tomino's previous theme doesn't really go anywhere, which is a shame since maybe the "typical UC" kill-'em-all ending might be averted. Too bad, since the cyber-Newtype Plus also show an ability to sync with others, proving it is a feature of Newtype psi power, not a bug. (Meanwhile the commanders on both side grumble into their wine goblets about the super-duper Newtypes not massacring fleets like they are supposed to. :P)

Now, as regards a drought of active Newtypes on the Axis Neo-Zeon side, one should again keep in mind a few factors which I think are worth considering.
1. Axis is a hurly-burly mix of native and refugee elements that are working with each other but don't have the designed and assigned command structure of the Principality. A lot of assets are doubtless being underused or overlooked. Even so, the manga Char's Deleted Affair suggests that Axis is doing its best to assemble and develop Newtype-enhancing technology, so when Newtypes are recognized they can be effectively utilized.
2. Naturally occurring Newtypes are a hit-and-miss affair. Either they are present, or they are not. When one arises, they will do well, but can they do better? Maybe with a new MS that better utilizes their abilities?
3. In regards to #2, the Cyber-Newtype development program was supposed to handle the deficiency. These made-to-order Newtypes could have created that Newtype presence. Imagine the planned goal of Marida Cruz x 20, distributed among the Neo Zeon ships and stations and equipped with MP Quebely units, with loyalty to Haman-sama and Minerva-hime indoctrinated into them.
4. Which brings to mind the rather opportunistic intrusion of Axis into the Gryps War. Would it have been better to wait a year or two and see if AEUG prevailed while building up strength? No matter who won, the Federation's civil war would weaken it, and leave it vulnerable to an Axis fleet fronted by Newtypes using specialized MS, assisted by Remnants guerillas on and around Earth. Haman seems to have led Axis into action before its forces were truly ready, which might explain while there is a dearth of skilled young Newtype pilots.
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Re: Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:10 pm

Agree on most accounts, though I want to point out that while Haman's faction did succeeded at developing Cyber-newtypes (or at the very least improve their faulty newtypes: Mashymre and Chara), this happened very late into the 1st Neo Zeon War. Also, Haman seemed overall unaware of Glemy's mass produced Cyber newtypes, being surprised upon meeting Ple Two that she looked just like Elpeo Puru and asking if they were sisters.

My point is that, by the time Axis arrived at the Earth Sphere, Haman had yet to produce successful cyber newtypes and Glemy would still be keeping to himself his secret project to mass produce them.

On the hand, Axis did likely already had the resources to mass produce newtype MS like the Qubeley, but likely lacked the newtype pilots for them. In such case, returning to the Earth Sphere might have been a move intended to have not only Char rejoin her forces, but also to find more newtypes for her army.

This actually has made me wonder about Illia Pazom, whom I already pointed out to seemingly be Haman's most stable newtype pilot: considering how late she appears in the story and that she's technically given a role as Mashymre's subordinate, rather than lead her own ship, could she actually not be from Axis?

I'm thinking that maybe she could have been from Side 3 and decided to join Axis after learning of their return. She appears in the story just before the Republic of Zeon's RMS-099B team is assigned to the Endra II.

Considering that she's piloting and relatively old MS-14J, perhaps she was originally a MS-14 pilot for the republic of Zeon and switched to a machine she would be more familiar with instead of a new Axis/Neo Zeon model.

Another possibility is that while Haman had her keep watch of Mashymre, she still didn't trust Illia quite enough to give her a proper newtype MS, such as a Qubeley.

Lastly, there's always the chance that much like the enhanced Mashymre, she simply preferred a fast MS over one with newtype weapons (IIRC, I think there was some mention of her MS-14J also being a hand me down from Mashymre).

Perhaps the real purpose of Haman sending ships to the colonies after the Gryps war was locating potential newtypes among the population. Gathering the Zeon remnants, Titans, the Republic of Zeon's forces and even AEUG soldiers (at least according to Mirage of Zeon), might have also had the secondary purpose of finding more newtypes among them.

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Re: Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

Post by DarthYAM » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:49 am

Haman's obsession made sense; she's used to everyone being evil and selfish so seeing someone who is (for all his flaws) a genuinely good person is a genuine stunner for her. There's a bit right before the second meeting; she's told that he's looking for leina. Haman's all wait isn't that the kid glemmy has? When this is confirmed she seems stunned that he's searching for someone.

He also reminds her of her younger more idealistic self.

All things said it's a hell of a better reason to be interested in the hero (intellectual curiosity)

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Re: Haman's Obsession and Axis/Neo Zeon's Newtype Drought

Post by Zeonista » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:56 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:10 pm
On the hand, Axis did likely already had the resources to mass produce newtype MS like the Qubeley, but likely lacked the newtype pilots for them. In such case, returning to the Earth Sphere might have been a move intended to have not only Char rejoin her forces, but also to find more newtypes for her army.
This is a good suggestion, which I can support. Haman-sama could have decided that the Sides and Remnant forces might be able to make up the shortage of Newtypes through recruiting. Maybe a bit optimistic, but eternal optimism is a hallmark characteristic of the Zeonista type. ;)
This actually has made me wonder about Illia Pazom, whom I already pointed out to seemingly be Haman's most stable newtype pilot: considering how late she appears in the story and that she's technically given a role as Mashymre's subordinate, rather than lead her own ship, could she actually not be from Axis?
Ilia Pazom makes an appearance in Char's Deleted Affair as an up-and-coming pilot who is distinctly different from the cyber-newtype pilots. I got the impression from the manga that she was a promising rookie destined for greater things than a Gaza-series MS. However, setting that aside, your proposal of Illia as a rebellious Republic pilot who joins the Neo Zeon fleet has some merit to it. The Regelg has enough features for an improved OYW MS to make it a machine she brought with her, or was a better-than-average old MS that could be given to a Newtype until Axis had completed one for her.
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"Discontent is the first step in the progress for a man or a nation." - Oscar Wilde

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