The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

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domino
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:30 pm

latenlazy wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:54 pm
Not at all. Never said that Rustal should get swift abrupt karma, just that I don't agree with the finale's politics and moral stance. Note how I talk a lot about the implications of the message in the finale and not much at all about Rustal's fate. My criticism is not really about Rustal.
Can you please give examples of the finale's "politics and moral stance" giving the "subtext" to which you refer? i.e. the "trust a dictator to ultimately use their power for good" ?

Imo, IBO has not done that at all and the final meeting between Kudelia and Rustal was obviously to show that they do not trust him but must work within the system because they are following Orga's last order: "keep moving forward" . Tekkadan seems to have interpreted that as "We will do what we must to survive" ie the ends justify the means. They even included Ride's transformation which follows the same philosophy (ends justify the means) but Kudelia said he hasn't "moved forward" which is true. Ride and his crew are stuck in the past and could jeopardize everything they've accomplished so far.

I'm not sure how you interpreted those scenes.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by latenlazy » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:02 pm

domino wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:30 pm
latenlazy wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:54 pm
Not at all. Never said that Rustal should get swift abrupt karma, just that I don't agree with the finale's politics and moral stance. Note how I talk a lot about the implications of the message in the finale and not much at all about Rustal's fate. My criticism is not really about Rustal.
Can you please give examples of the finale's "politics and moral stance" giving the "subtext" to which you refer? i.e. the "trust a dictator to ultimately use their power for good" ?

Imo, IBO has not done that at all and the final meeting between Kudelia and Rustal was obviously to show that they do not trust him but must work within the system because they are following Orga's last order: "keep moving forward" . Tekkadan seems to have interpreted that as "We will do what we must to survive" ie the ends justify the means. They even included Ride's transformation which follows the same philosophy (ends justify the means) but Kudelia said he hasn't "moved forward" which is true. Ride and his crew are stuck in the past and could jeopardize everything they've accomplished so far.

I'm not sure how you interpreted those scenes.
"How Rustal is portrayed in the end is the same conceit every oppressor ever sells as moral justification for their actions. We will do what's right with our power. See that wasn't so bad. Ignore that we've already shown we're willing to do terrible corrupt things to grab and stay in power. Platitudes for all the people who had to die to make this happen, unfortunately, but look it wasn't all for naught! Except we'll make sure they're forgotten or seen as villains in history. How romantic."

"How the show chooses to portray the ending, morally and tonally, is different from its objective facts. For example, Gaelio and Julietta are pretty complicit in Rustal's corrupt machination, and they're largely rewarded for it. Rustal himself comes away not only unpunished, but stronger. The narration expresses some degree of somber satisfaction to this outcome, as if we should entrust this person and the system he's marshaled, when series goes out of the way to convince us of just how untrustworthy and self serving they are. Yes, this stuff does happen in the real world, but the show's narrative isn't morally neutral about it, and the subtext of trusting corrupt system actors at the end so long there's enough agitation flies in the face of expectations we'd have in real life, even if the outcomes themselves are realistic."

If the above two posts need clarification, the epilogue shows Rustal delivering on both the ideals of McGillis and Tekkadan after crushing them. People like Rustal don't behave like this in real life, but the show presents this as a reasonable outcome. I think I've bellyached enough about the finale though. You don't have to agree with me.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by MarshalBraginsky » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:04 am

Judging that aside,
Show
IdIok may have received a lot of hate for his stupidity, but am I the only one here who thinks that his death was overkill? And with raging Akihiro the guy to deliver the final blow, it does seem fitting that he would also go down to his death with that moron and avenge Lafter's death at the same time. On the other hand, the way Mika goes full berserk in a severely damaged BLR and having a critical injury to boot, it kinda reminds me of Roberta from Black Lagoon: Roberta's Blood Trail when the psycho maid also goes full berserk with just one arm and a musket to boot.

On the other hand, Ride's assassination of Nobliss did remind me of one of the passages that was written in the review of Gundam 00 Season Two episode 20, especially Lyle's desire to avenge Anew's death by killing Setsuna and how it was averted before he would have developed a Shinn Asuka-like obsession for revenge? Well Ride's path of revenge now makes him on par with or surpasses Shinn's desire for revenge. It's gonna eat up the unadjusted members of Tekkadan like Ride on the inside.

And with that, IBO officially joins Stardust Memory as the only Gundam show where the baddie actually wins and with such a huge amount of characters that died, it might even have surpassed Victory Gundam in death counts. Hopefully the next Gundam series would be an improvement over IBO.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by phillosmaster » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:32 am

Sigh... improvement over IBO? This is why we can't have nice things.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:14 am

latenlazy wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:02 pm
If the above two posts need clarification, the epilogue shows Rustal delivering on both the ideals of McGillis and Tekkadan after crushing them. People like Rustal don't behave like this in real life, but the show presents this as a reasonable outcome. I think I've bellyached enough about the finale though. You don't have to agree with me.
When you say "the show presents this"....are you referring to the narration of how events unfolded after the McGillis incident? That was Julietta's voice if I'm not mistaken. That would explain why it may seem over-glowing.

Rustal is most likely still a scoundrel - it said that he still cuts deals with Teiwaz. He'd do anything for his own benefit and played his cards well. I think he's just a smarter version of McGillis honestly. McGillis wanted to get his hands dirty but Rustal knew that was unwise. It's better to have pawns (like Gaelio and Julietta) fight for you especially when you are able to encourage them to be willing to sacrifice themselves.

You really ignored how the other characters - even Gaelio - all reflect that they survived but have lost something nonetheless. If anything, the "subtext" in the show is that"the ends justify the means" in order to achieve the change you want in the world.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Cybaster » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:16 am

Judging that aside,
And with that, IBO officially joins Stardust Memory as the only Gundam show where the baddie actually wins and with such a huge amount of characters that died, it might even have surpassed Victory Gundam in death counts. Hopefully the next Gundam series would be an improvement over IBO.
And unlike Stardust Memory, IBO isn't an origins or prelude story to anything, where the bad guys winning is simply due to them needing to survive for the next show's plot. So nobody here saw Rustal's total victory coming, really.

Ultimately, I'd like to think of the ending of IBO as a satire of the 'Small Heroic Resistance Group stands up to Large Big Bad Entity and Proves the Justice of their Culture' formula that Zeta Gundam popularized, and which almost every other non-OYW, non-BF Gundam show (F91, V, Wing, X, SEED, SEED Destiny, 00, AGE, G-Reco, etc.) tended to follow on since Zeta. In a more favorable setting, in fact, Tekkadan basically would be the AEUG --- and like the AEUG, they wouldn't have solved anything either had they won because Tekkadan's schtick basically consisted of the same 'brute force and just destroy the enemy in front of us, and let everything sort itself out afterwards' methodology that $insert_small_heroic_resistance_group also followed since the AEUG popularized the trope. IBO's message IMO is that this just doesn't work in reality, full stop.

In Zeta, the AEUG beat the Titans, but like Tekkadan they had been so focused on fighting and simply destroying their enemy (and following the notion that if the Titans were destroyed all would be automatically well with the Earth Federation) that once the war WAS over they didn't have any actual substantial idea on how to reform the Earth Federation, had the power to do so, or even had stopped to think that the REAL problem with the Earth Federation really lay within its own bureaucracy rather than with just some extreme rebel faction - and as a result there was peace but the status quo then set right back in, causing more people to become increasingly disillusioned (Char, Hathaway, etc.) and start more wars to try to find an answer.

Had Tekkadan won as per Gundam norms, would they have had changed a thing? Not really IMO. Rustal, McGillis and Gjallarhorn were demolished but from there, I don't think Tekkadan would've had an idea on how they had to follow through on what they had won, especially without Orga, and there would be peace for awhile before Tekkadan and Mars fell back to the same patterns as before - which is exactly why the UC was such a clusterf*ck of 70+ years of running conflicts followed in between by short periods of peace (that only lasted as long as some other disillusioned nutcase didn't decide to step up and try to change things). Ultimately, IBO's message IMO is that the 'destroy all opposition and then sort things out later' approach to most Gundam shows seldom works in real life, or even in reality; the 'heroic resistance' winning doesn't necessarily solve all problems, either (and in fact might end up causing more problems than they solve in the long run).
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by latenlazy » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:42 am

domino wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:14 am
latenlazy wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:02 pm
If the above two posts need clarification, the epilogue shows Rustal delivering on both the ideals of McGillis and Tekkadan after crushing them. People like Rustal don't behave like this in real life, but the show presents this as a reasonable outcome. I think I've bellyached enough about the finale though. You don't have to agree with me.
When you say "the show presents this"....are you referring to the narration of how events unfolded after the McGillis incident? That was Julietta's voice if I'm not mistaken. That would explain why it may seem over-glowing.

Rustal is most likely still a scoundrel - it said that he still cuts deals with Teiwaz. He'd do anything for his own benefit and played his cards well. I think he's just a smarter version of McGillis honestly. McGillis wanted to get his hands dirty but Rustal knew that was unwise. It's better to have pawns (like Gaelio and Julietta) fight for you especially when you are able to encourage them to be willing to sacrifice themselves.

You really ignored how the other characters - even Gaelio - all reflect that they survived but have lost something nonetheless. If anything, the "subtext" in the show is that"the ends justify the means" in order to achieve the change you want in the world.
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm pointing out how problematic the ethos of "ends justify means" as it's portrayed in this conclusion is in terms of its message. That's literally what I mean when I say this conclusion is the same conceit used by oppressors in real life to justify their actions.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:46 am

"Ends justifies the means" was referring to Tekkadan and their method of survival.

I mean, I half expected Eugene to try to kill Rustal and Julieta with his bare hands but instead, he played his role. He knew what they would lose if he became like Ride.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by latenlazy » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:10 am

domino wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:46 am
"Ends justifies the means" was referring to Tekkadan and their method of survival.

I mean, I half expected Eugene to try to kill Rustal and Julieta with his bare hands but instead, he played his role. He knew what they would lose if he became like Ride.
Ends justify the means could also be used to describe Rustal, who basically grasped victory using some very underhanded methods and now gets to write the history books. As a story telling devise, regardless of who is narrating, the content of narration imparts some measure of authority to the meaning and significance of a creative work. That it was Julietta doing the narration doesn't change its contents.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:29 am

At this point I think you're just nitpicking - and that's probably why you interpret the ending as you do

It's a bit short-sighted to see the ending only as "Darnnit, Rustal got his way!" without seeing everything else that also happened.

Heck, you could've done better to consider why Julietta prefers to remain a pawn eventhough she eventually realizes that Tekkadan was not the group of monsters she thought they were.

There's a lot more going on in the ending than the parts you keep focusing on. Rustal was just a character in the show. He wasn't the main villain like we usually get in Gundam. He does look pretty evil though

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by latenlazy » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:46 am

domino wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:29 am
At this point I think you're just nitpicking - and that's probably why you interpret the ending as you do

It's a bit short-sighted to see the ending only as "Darnnit, Rustal got his way!" without seeing everything else that also happened.

Heck, you could've done better to consider why Julietta prefers to remain a pawn eventhough she eventually realizes that Tekkadan was not the group of monsters she thought they were.

There's a lot more going on in the ending than the parts you keep focusing on. Rustal was just a character in the show. He wasn't the main villain like we usually get in Gundam. He does look pretty evil though
I didn't just focus on Rustal in my earlier replies, and I don't think you understand what I'm actually critiquing here...it's not that Rustal won. It's that what he does as the victor paints an unrealistic and naively romantic ideal of what victors who've shown they're willing to use corruption to serve their own ends do after they've won, and the moral implications of such a message. Anyways, I think it's best if we leave it here.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Cybaster » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:04 am

latenlazy wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:46 am
I didn't just focus on Rustal in my earlier replies, and I don't think you understand what I'm actually critiquing here...it's not that Rustal won. It's that what he does as the victor paints an unrealistic and naively romantic ideal of what victors who've shown they're willing to use corruption to serve their own ends do after they've won, and the moral implications of such a message. Anyways, I think it's best if we leave it here.
Yeah, a part of me can't help but feel nonetheless that the director saw certain global politics unfold in RL mid-2nd season, then decided he had to suddenly use IBO as a vehicle for...some kind of social statement towards Trump or Putin or Brexit or whoever. I can't explain it, but that's the kind of disconnect I feel there between how the two seasons generally went.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:16 am

A part of me wonders if Gaelio's sister killed herself or somehow was exiled for declaring loyalty to McGillis? Maybe she even exiled herself since the family also lost its power?

It is strange that Gaelio was not shown with his sister and didn't even make any mention of her. Considering that he's returning to his old care-free ways, it's very uncharacteristic for him

Can only assume that something happened to her.

It would be interesting to find out how the other Seven Stars took being disbanded. They had the opportunity to play a hand in their destiny but instead sat back. As a result, they lost "everything" - or were they just changed over to Heads of the new Democratic System? Curious

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Kuruni » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:50 am

domino wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:16 am
It would be interesting to find out how the other Seven Stars took being disbanded. They had the opportunity to play a hand in their destiny but instead sat back. As a result, they lost "everything"[...]
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:12 pm

IIRC, Almirya said that she would share McGillis' fate as his wife. So, I do wonder if something happened to her in the end.

Though I really don't want to spark any "You watched it wrong!" debates, I do think there's a right and a wrong way to interpret the ending.
Spoiler
Show
Rustal didn't have some kind of Ebeneezer Scrooge-style overnight conversion into a good man; his heart didn't grow three sizes after he ordered his men to snipe Mika and Akihiro from orbit with illegal weapons. He didn't CHOOSE to give away most of his power as the head of Gjallarhorn, he was FORCED to by the changing situation of the world.

The old Gjallarhorn power structure was in ruins: four of the Seven Stars had lost their heirs, the public's confidence in them was shaken by things like the battle in Edmonton and the leaks of Iok's war crimes against the Turbines, and it was clear that enough members disagreed with the status quo to form an active rebellion. They couldn't sustain the old system any longer; doing otherwise would just invite more disaster. They HAD to become a more benevolent organization because the public's eye was on them.

Rustal fought as hard as he could, used underhanded tactics and committed war crimes in order to maintain the status quo of Gjallarhorn being the top dog, and even though he won the war, he failed to achieve his goals. And just as a final middle finger, people he KNOWS are Tekkadan members not only escaped the destruction of the organization, but are living high on the hog thanks to their connections to powerful allies like Kudelia, Makanai and McMurdo...and he can't do a damn thing about it, except smile pretty for the cameras.

So can you really call that "The bad guy wins"?
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by krullnar » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:24 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:12 pm
IIRC, Almirya said that she would share McGillis' fate as his wife. So, I do wonder if something happened to her in the end.

Though I really don't want to spark any "You watched it wrong!" debates, I do think there's a right and a wrong way to interpret the ending.
Spoiler
Show
Rustal didn't have some kind of Ebeneezer Scrooge-style overnight conversion into a good man; his heart didn't grow three sizes after he ordered his men to snipe Mika and Akihiro from orbit with illegal weapons. He didn't CHOOSE to give away most of his power as the head of Gjallarhorn, he was FORCED to by the changing situation of the world.

The old Gjallarhorn power structure was in ruins: four of the Seven Stars had lost their heirs, the public's confidence in them was shaken by things like the battle in Edmonton and the leaks of Iok's war crimes against the Turbines, and it was clear that enough members disagreed with the status quo to form an active rebellion. They couldn't sustain the old system any longer; doing otherwise would just invite more disaster. They HAD to become a more benevolent organization because the public's eye was on them.

Rustal fought as hard as he could, used underhanded tactics and committed war crimes in order to maintain the status quo of Gjallarhorn being the top dog, and even though he won the war, he failed to achieve his goals. And just as a final middle finger, people he KNOWS are Tekkadan members not only escaped the destruction of the organization, but are living high on the hog thanks to their connections to powerful allies like Kudelia, Makanai and McMurdo...and he can't do a damn thing about it, except smile pretty for the cameras.

So can you really call that "The bad guy wins"?
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:17 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:12 pm
IIRC, Almirya said that she would share McGillis' fate as his wife. So, I do wonder if something happened to her in the end.

Though I really don't want to spark any "You watched it wrong!" debates, I do think there's a right and a wrong way to interpret the ending.
Spoiler
Show
Rustal didn't have some kind of Ebeneezer Scrooge-style overnight conversion into a good man; his heart didn't grow three sizes after he ordered his men to snipe Mika and Akihiro from orbit with illegal weapons. He didn't CHOOSE to give away most of his power as the head of Gjallarhorn, he was FORCED to by the changing situation of the world.

The old Gjallarhorn power structure was in ruins: four of the Seven Stars had lost their heirs, the public's confidence in them was shaken by things like the battle in Edmonton and the leaks of Iok's war crimes against the Turbines, and it was clear that enough members disagreed with the status quo to form an active rebellion. They couldn't sustain the old system any longer; doing otherwise would just invite more disaster. They HAD to become a more benevolent organization because the public's eye was on them.

Rustal fought as hard as he could, used underhanded tactics and committed war crimes in order to maintain the status quo of Gjallarhorn being the top dog, and even though he won the war, he failed to achieve his goals. And just as a final middle finger, people he KNOWS are Tekkadan members not only escaped the destruction of the organization, but are living high on the hog thanks to their connections to powerful allies like Kudelia, Makanai and McMurdo...and he can't do a damn thing about it, except smile pretty for the cameras.

So can you really call that "The bad guy wins"?
In addition to what AmuroNT1 said:
Show
Gjarrhorn lost a LOT of forces due to McGillis's uprising, a lot of soldiers, ships and mobile suits were lost, along with a decent amount from Rustal's own forces. While Rustal became the top dog, Gjarrhorn was weaker, and Rustal is on the spotlight now as the leader of Gjarrhorn with the 7 star family structure taken out, he has to be very careful with his actions, as he still has to answer to a civilian government on Earth, and can't do anything to Kudelia due to her political muscle. Plus its not like he has anything against Mars being more economically developed, that is on the Earth Government, nothing militarily related to Gjarrhorn.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:30 pm

Show
The concept of Rustal leading Gjallarhorn into being an idealized democratic organization is farcical, whether it's an overnight change of heart, or whether he's "forced into it," it's equally nonsensical to his character, to his leadership style, and to the status of the world at the end of IBO.

Murderous dictators do not become benevolent leaders just because "the public eye is on them." They don't become benevolent leaders because the social order is destabilized. If anything, a destabilized social structure is where dictators thrive. IBO's world is one where military power is very centralized into a few organizations, with Gjallarhorn being top of the heap. When you put the megalomaniac in the position of being king of the hill in an organization that has the furthest reach and influence, who has shown no remorse in bending the facts in order to justify his actions, who has been a meticulous social manipulator, that person doesn't just roll over and accept that things are changing. A military dictator like Rustal would take over the newly destabilized world like Hitler took over post-WWI Germany. Like Lenin took over Russia after the February Revolution. Like Pinochet took over Chile in 1973. Only unlike any of these guys, Rustal has way, way more influence.

The notion that he's got to just "grin and bear it" that the world is changing under him is ridiculous, childishly idealized nonsense. Granted, Gundam in the past has been guilty of this, and IBO's brand of childishly idealized nonsense isn't any worse than Wing's childishly idealized nonsense ending, but I don't see anybody really praising that either.
And it's not like changing that would have fixed the ending. The ending had MUCH bigger problems than not making sense politically.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Cybaster » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:07 pm

sdwoodchuck wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:30 pm
The notion that he's got to just "grin and bear it" that the world is changing under him is ridiculous, childishly idealized nonsense.
Not any more than a resistance group consisting only of three ships and a handful of plot armor-equipped Mobile Suits and pilots thoroughly trouncing both much larger sides, taking over everything in the aftermath, and the entire Earth Sphere becoming magically sunshine and rainbows automatically just because there's no antagonists left.

*coughThreeShipsAlliancecough*

IBO thankfully isn't that kind of Gundam show. Say what you will about Rustal's rise to power and apparent change of heart, at least the process is still more realistic than most Gundam endings where the improbably outnumbered good guys *do* win through sheer plot armor and make everything better without any explanation whatsoever. Heck; To say nothing of Kira, imagine if Kamille was in Mikazuki's place. The plot armor would've been so thick that the Zeta alone could actually wade through everyone (*coughBioFieldcough*) and emerge unscathed, and we as viewers would be calling MAJOR shenanigans even moreso than now...
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:23 pm

Yeah, I don't disagree, and if anyone were sitting around calling those endings "realistic," I'd be laughing at them, too. As I've said before, realism isn't the spectrum on which the quality of this series (or any Gundam series for that matter) rests, and the epilogue being ridiculously implausible isn't its biggest problem, but if folks are using "it's realistic!" as a defense of this? Well, that's just silly.

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