The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

The place to discuss anything relating to anime or manga.
Post Reply
User avatar
yazi88
Moderator
Posts: 1401
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Scopedog Bed

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:43 am

Show
Ending did fall short and didn't really explain much the epilogue as things just happened.... I wasn't a fan of the ending either, but it did have some strong moments in the 1st half.
But things not being explained in the ending isn't anything new to Gundam.... Most of the time Gundam doesn't end well and to me this is one of those times. I didn't put much expectation in the show having a good ending, but I still enjoyed the ride that was IBO. It broke a lot of conventions throughout the series for Gundam, just as much as 00, especially on the gritty child soldier end, compared to previous Gundam shows. The ending I think also pretty unique to Gundam.

This 2nd season I enjoyed pretty much all of it, despite some hiccups after the Space battle with Rustal and the ending.
Last edited by yazi88 on Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
krullnar
Posts: 626
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:42 pm

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by krullnar » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:51 am

I quite liked the ending and was fitting if you look back at the show over all.
ShadowCell - Mr. T doesn't read YouTube comments. Neither does Jesus. Or MacGuyver. Don't you want to be like Mr. T, Jesus, and MacGuyver?

User avatar
yazi88
Moderator
Posts: 1401
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Scopedog Bed

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:56 am

Oh I agree, the ending was fitting with certain characters, my main problem with the ending is:
Show
Rustal getting away with all the horrible war crimes he committed, he came out as the big winner and no one stood against him, not even Gaelio, who I felt was wasted in the end, aside from his revenge thing with McGillis, he was useless in the end and just Rustal's lapdog. Given how he didn't give a damn about the corruption and Rustal's activities, McGillis was right to never trust him. Funny enough, we don't see Gaelio's sister in the ending either...

latenlazy
Posts: 1223
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:30 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by latenlazy » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:15 am

yazi88 wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:43 am
Ending did fall short and didn't really explain much the epilogue as things just happened.... I wasn't a fan of the ending either, but it did have some strong moments in the 1st half.

But things not being explained in the ending isn't anything new to Gundam.... Most of the time Gundam doesn't end well and to me this is one of those times. I didn't put much expectation in the show having a good ending, but I still enjoyed the ride that was IBO. It broke a lot of conventions throughout the series for Gundam, just as much as 00, especially on the gritty child soldier end, compared to previous Gundam shows. The ending I think also pretty unique to Gundam.

This 2nd season I enjoyed pretty much all of it, despite some hiccups after the Space battle with Rustal and the ending.
It's not just that the ending hand waves an ideal outcome, or that it was unrealistic, or even that it devalues the deaths and ideals of all the characters who ended up being sacrificed. The message that this ending tries to peddle―that if you fight to the death for a cause your corrupt adversaries, who have basically proven time and again that they will go to the most underhanded, depraved, and dishonorable lengths to stop you and preserve a corrupt status quo, will deliver the change that you have been seeking—is mindless poppycock.

People who take this kind of unrealistic romanticized ethos to heart often end up becoming complacent apologists for the worst kinds of misdeeds that you can find in history books. This is the narrative of sorts that predatory and wrongful institutions and systems exploit to justify their inertia and breed complicity in their body politic. If we want to say that we shouldn't read too deeply into the politics of this series because it's a kid's show, that actually only makes the message in this ending worse. After all, it is kids who end up internalizing the ideas and values of a story with little critical thought and scrutiny, and it is appalling to me that these ideas are what will be spoon fed to them. Do I think the show will have such an undue influence in practice? No, of course not. But that doesn't absolve the sheer magnitude and deficient nature of these problems.
Last edited by latenlazy on Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
yazi88
Moderator
Posts: 1401
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Scopedog Bed

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:20 am

Oh yeah, I agree with you. I just didn't expect it to go that route in Gundam....

sdwoodchuck
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:12 pm

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:38 am

Show
So many plot points in the ending just derive from nothing.

Rustal winning doesn't bother me, but he went from a paper-thin character to a self-contradiction at the drop of a hat. His insistence that all of Tekkadan must die plays into nothing at all, in the end. It was just an excuse to hang a last stand on, because it didn't make sense otherwise. But then once the dust settles, his scheming and ruthless ambition leads him to becoming... a peaceful democratic leader? It doesn't fit his character at all. If he had the scope for that kind of leadership role, he wouldn't be throwing his weight around turning down surrenders. That decision has no sensible motive for his character, and it has no repercussion in the plot.

Nothing comes of Gaelio either. He contributes nothing to the ending, And what of Ein? His extended life for the purpose of revenge has been a theme touched on many times in the series--and prominently in the plot for Season 2 as a reveal--and that's just wiped off the table. After all his talk of Ein being his ally and all this stuff, there's not even any acknowledgment of that side of the plot. Ein is either destroyed with little-to-no mention (very poor handling of plot elements) or he's still stuck with his brain in an unused mobile suit, or something happens to him off-screen with no explanation.

Iok's entire role feels so incidental. He survives McGillis's attack a couple episodes back, but why even have him in that scene, why have Iok be that guy if you're just going to trot him out two episodes later to die a token death? It just seems ridiculous. He doesn't add to the McGillis scene at all. His ALMOST dying doesn't lend that scene any dramatic heft, and indeed it pisses some of it away in having to show why he's not dying, but he was saved just so he could get killed for real later. No other purpose.

Dainsleif are a hanging plot thread as well. They're built up to be this forbidden weapon, it's supposed to be a big deal that they're being used at all, they need to work around loopholes to use the weapon type at one point, it's a political nightmare--but in the end, who cares? Just do some orbital bombardment with them, never acknowledge the forbidden status of the weapon, and have no repercussions for doing so?

Julietta is pulled out of doing nothing just long enough to stumble ass-backward into a heroic leadership role with Iok levels of incidental justification.

And what of Mikazuki? He's been a non-character (for the most part) since episode 1. It seemed like his partial connection with Barbatos where he keeps losing some of his body functions was building to something. Considering he was the only one who could seemingly handle it, and it played such a big role in his story in Season 2, it seemed like that might, I don't know, be a part of the plot. But nah, I guess not, he just became a magical cripple for a while and then died, whatevs.

domino
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:53 am

latenlazy wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:41 am
It's almost shocking how problematic and regressive this conclusion is, despite its finer sentiments, which are used as cheap emotional hooks to sell its utter nonsense.

If you think about it, it's not much different from other endings such as 0083 and both seasons of 00 Gundam....
Show
In both, the "heroes" are outcasts and have to go into hiding in order to survive. The system won. The difference this time is that we neither get the satisfaction of an awesome final battle nor seeing the death of a major villain.

IBO's ending is also a tear jerker because we grew to know and care about the characters far more than many previous series.

It's tragically sad that Mika died the way he did but he had already resolved himself to that end. What Julieta eventually understood was that Mika was fighting simply to survive and not for glory and power - as she was.

It's also interesting to see that someone like Ride could be driven to a life of revenge - going so far as to set up his own splinter group and distancing himself from his family.

So many undertones and messages in this ending and throughout IBO. The series doesn't lay them out neatly for the audience which I guess is the issue many have.

In many ways, Tekkadan won. Mars is free, Tekkadan members no longer have to fight just to survive and Kudelia achieved her mission. However, Rustal also won.
Last edited by domino on Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
yazi88
Moderator
Posts: 1401
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Scopedog Bed

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:54 am

Domino, use spoilers options man... it only aired a few hours ago...

EDIT: Thank you.

latenlazy
Posts: 1223
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:30 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by latenlazy » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:06 am

domino wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:53 am
latenlazy wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:41 am
It's almost shocking how problematic and regressive this conclusion is, despite its finer sentiments, which are used as cheap emotional hooks to sell its utter nonsense.
If you think about it, it's not much different from other endings such as 0083 and both seasons of 00 Gundam. ...
1) In 00 the system doesn't actually win. It turns on itself after its own corruption becomes unignorable in a pretty significant way. Celestial Being doesn't lose. They're essential in excising the rot in the system, live to see another day, and even have their reputation rehabilitated to a degree. That said the main antagonist wasn't the system itself, but someone with a god complex manipulating the system for their own self serving purposes. 00's ideas have their own problems, but they're not at all identical to the takeaway you get from IBO.

2) 0083's ending is understandable, since it's meant to set up the situation in Zeta.

3) It's *how* IBO portrays the ending that's the issue. What Tekkadan fights for ends up happening because the bad guy, after crushing them for rebellion, ends up changing the system largely just because. The narration in the epilogue even states that Rustal's swift victory ends up resestablishing Gjallahorn's faltering legitimacy. The impression it leaves is that you can trust a corrupt system to change on its own if you fight honorably and lose, which is just unbelievably farcical.
Last edited by latenlazy on Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mobiusdiablo
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Gryps 2

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by mobiusdiablo » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:16 am

I for one think that this ending is the only way it could have, at least before the epilouge. There was no way our heroes were going to come out alright in the face of that. As for the epilouge itself
Show
I do think that the idea of Gjallarhorn having to change its government structure is sound, which could never have happened without the actions of McGillis, and by extension Kudelia and Tekkadan. It does seem kind of out of left field for Rustal to assume the role of a president, but on the other hand, don't you think someone who is a career leader/politician who manipulates ZOINKS would want absolute power? And even if his actions are benevolent to some, he still has explicit connections with Teiwaz and presumably other parts of the underbelly of society. Furthermore, banning human debris actually helps cement his power further by preventing groups like Tekkadan challenging him. He seems to play the same game as some politicians in real life do, I just wish we had more time spent on that and learning what his full motives are.
I have my own gripes with the show I do believe it gets more flak than what it deserves. IBO was heavily laden with symbology, from McGillis citing Gundam Frames being heralds of change, his fixation on the Maiden of Revolution, and the ideal that Gjallarhorn could be reformed into an honorable, 'pure' order free of corruption. Season 1 feels to me like it's arguing why this is good, while Season 2 comes off as saying idealism and symbolism and in the case of Tekkadan, forsaking their own way of doing things and taking it slow and steady for a chance to win it big, is just not enough.
Show
Even at the very end, symbolism is thrust upon us - Mikazuki's kid is named Akatsuki, 'Dawn,' as opposed to his father's name meaning 'crescent moon.' Remember, Earth's moon is nothing but a crescent in IBO, a remnant of the Calamity War and representing how the fallout, the aftermath of war affects and ruins lives. Compare to Dawn, which not only symbolizes the moon fading into the sunlight, but the literal dawn of a new era and future.
I could go into more, but break is about to end and I could use more time mulling over everything.
From 00 S2 ep 25

Tieria: As long as you keep looking down on them, you'll never understand them!
Ribbons: *has Newtype-y flash of AGE, of Kio and his UNDERSTANDING replacing his show* I DON'T WANT TO UNDERSTAND!

domino
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:18 am

You should remove my quote or add spoilers. I forgot to do so initially but edited it later

The system in 00 changed due to CB's intervention but never to the benefit of CB. In 2nd season, they lost against the unified Earth forces which ultimately continued their system. We can see this by Patrick and his wife advancing in ranks while some elements of supersoldier research remained (Seen in the movie) so even in a world of Innovades, the corruption continued. All that happened was the death of the major villain - which I mentioned is what IBO lacked. IBO never had a major villain.
latenlazy wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:06 am
3) It's *how* IBO portrays the ending that's the issue. What Tekkadan fights for ends up happening because the bad guy, after crushing them for rebellion, ends up changing the system largely just because. The narration in the epilogue even states that Rustal's swift victory ends up resestablishing Gjallahorn's faltering legitimacy. The impression it leaves is that you can trust a corrupt system to change on its own if you fight honorably and lose, which is just unbelievably farcical.
I think you need to rewatch the conversation between Rustal and Orga. He had this planned all along. Use Tekkadan as scapegoats in order to secure his rise to power. He pushed to get rid of the Seven Stars system so he had full and final authority. As someone who does not like to get his own hands dirty then of course Rustal ensured that no one would talk about the war crimes he committed. With unified power, there also was no need for him to continue conflicts so him letting Mars gain independence was as much punishment to the Mars branch for letting McGillis safe passage as well as releasing himself of the responsibility.

The fact that Rustal did what McGillis said he wanted to do was simply ironic especially in Julieta's opinion.

latenlazy
Posts: 1223
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:30 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by latenlazy » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:24 am

domino wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:18 am
You should remove my quote or add spoilers. I forgot to do so initially but edited it later

The system in 00 changed due to CB's intervention but never to the benefit of CB. In 2nd season, they lost against the unified Earth forces which ultimately continued their system. We can see this by Patrick and his wife advancing in ranks while some elements of supersoldier research remained (Seen in the movie) so even in a world of Innovades, the corruption continued. All that happened was the death of the major villain - which I mentioned is what IBO lacked. IBO never had a major villain.
The Earth Federation reforms at the end of 00, A-Laws is done, and CB is seen as heroes by the public, where they even get their own movie about their exploits. Your characterization of 00's end is, imo, a stretch.
I think you need to rewatch the conversation between Rustal and Orga. He had this planned all along. Use Tekkadan as scapegoats in order to secure his rise to power. He pushed to get rid of the Seven Stars system so he had full and final authority. As someone who does not like to get his own hands dirty then of course Rustal ensured that no one would talk about the war crimes he committed. With unified power, there also was no need for him to continue conflicts so him letting Mars gain independence was as much punishment to the Mars branch for letting McGillis safe passage as well as releasing himself of the responsibility.

The fact that Rustal did what McGillis said he wanted to do was simply ironic especially in Julieta's opinion.
I'm not protesting narrative consistency. I'm protesting the inherent politics and ethos of the message.

User avatar
yazi88
Moderator
Posts: 1401
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Scopedog Bed

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:26 am

Show
Rustal is a smart guy and knows how to negotiate with people despite all the crap he did, so he can make a for effective politician outside from a military guy. Effective doesn't always mean a good guy. I don't know what happened to the other families (which the ending also didn't address) but now that he's the top dog, he can control everything, plus, its not like he's against peace, as long as its under HIS terms, he'll go along with it. I'm assuming that from what I've seen of Rustal and it does seem to fit his character. I just wish there were more explanations, but the last ep didn't have anytime for that, especially after a time skip.

User avatar
mobiusdiablo
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Gryps 2

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by mobiusdiablo » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:31 am

Agreed, Yazi. I feel like this could've been settled if they didn't have Orga effectively tread water for two episodes after Shino biting it - or hell, let Shino survive and secure about an extra episode and a half for this. I never liked how his death came off as a retread of Amida and Naze's.
From 00 S2 ep 25

Tieria: As long as you keep looking down on them, you'll never understand them!
Ribbons: *has Newtype-y flash of AGE, of Kio and his UNDERSTANDING replacing his show* I DON'T WANT TO UNDERSTAND!

User avatar
yazi88
Moderator
Posts: 1401
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Scopedog Bed

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:34 am

I doubt Rustal would've ever settled with Orga... he was out to make a example of Tekkadan as a show of force from Gjarrhorn.

I just realized that Ride became Mark Warlberg from the end of "THE DEPARTED" lol

User avatar
Kuruni
Posts: 2978
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:43 am
Location: sitting next to a yandere loli
Contact:

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Kuruni » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:50 am

Wow, I were wrong big time. A truly grey and grey moral story, ahh. The final battle is pretty fun, love the moment Barbatos' silhouette look more like Hushmal.
Spoiler
Show
Iok's death is very satisfied.

So despite painted as villain, eventually people remember only McGillis and eventually forget Tekkadan. It seem that Julieta developed in same direction with Kudelia, she's clearly not proud of her final duel with Mika, but it's her "role" in this battle.

I think misunderstand Rustal big time. Ultimately he's a practical person and merciless, but he isn't embrace the corruption.

Nobliss pay for his crime. Sadly, this also indicate that Ride can't move on like other.
The endling leave good impression in weird way.
My girlfriend was a loli.

User avatar
X_zoro
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:01 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by X_zoro » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:13 am

My only response is this was a garbage ending,
Show
Hush and shino should have lived and Juilata or what ever her name is should have died with Iok
6/10 only because it had a strong start and Season 1 was good but I say for anyone who honestly loves Tekkadan just watch season 1 and pretend they were able to do great things ( the only sad thing you will get in S1 is biscuits death but they get their revenge on that)

User avatar
yazi88
Moderator
Posts: 1401
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Scopedog Bed

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:14 am

Kuruni wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:50 am
Wow, I were wrong big time. A truly grey and grey moral story, ahh. The final battle is pretty fun, love the moment Barbatos' silhouette look more like Hushmal.
Spoiler
Show
Iok's death is very satisfied.

So despite painted as villain, eventually people remember only McGillis and eventually forget Tekkadan. It seem that Julieta developed in same direction with Kudelia, she's clearly not proud of her final duel with Mika, but it's her "role" in this battle.

I think misunderstand Rustal big time. Ultimately he's a practical person and merciless, but he isn't embrace the corruption.

Nobliss pay for his crime. Sadly, this also indicate that Ride can't move on like other.
The endling leave good impression in weird way.

You make a very good point about Rustal, ruthless but practical...

User avatar
zetatype
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by zetatype » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:18 pm

I have a lot of mixed feelings about this episode.
Spoiler
Show
On one hand the fight was good, Lok is dead, and it's good to see that most of Tekkadan made it out alive. On the other hand Rustal's actions during the epilogue just don't make sense to me. I really can't recall any point in the series that implied he would support a more democratic government or a free Mars.

User avatar
Amion
Posts: 2167
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Amion » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:34 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:14 am
Rustal, ruthless but practical...
Pretty much my initial thoughts. So, this is similar to a Durandel wins ending. Huh. In an odd, way, I don't mind the ending. It came off surprisingly satisfying, despite misgivings I had in the past. Definitely better than AGE or Destiny, so it doesn't fall below the Gundam Bar. However, the series as a whole is another story. I will now forget about it entirely.

As for this episode: the highlights were relatively few. First off, Barbatos really is just a Hashmal-lite. That's cool in my book. Second, the brush cutters! Ahahahahaha! Yes! That was the meaning for their existence! Too bad I now feel kind of bad for Iok Kujan. :|

Sayonara, Tekketsu no Orphens.

So. Where from here? Perhaps a fresh writer for Gundam. Someone other than Marie Okada and her team, thanks and no thanks. A fresh series after this, that's what I want, one with a LOT of beam energy. Beams. Everywhere. With shimmery Hashmal noises. And upbeat characters. Heh. I think I'll go rewatch Build Fighters until then... :twisted:

That said, I wonder if anyone's managed to bribe Urobuchi into doing a Gundam show. With how he handled Gargantia and Madoka Magika, surely he could provide a top quality Gundam series. Well, that's speculation, I'll say no more.

Now, one last question. How was IBO received overall in Japan and, more importantly, how well did those plastic gold makers sell?
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

Post Reply