The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

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phillosmaster
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by phillosmaster » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:07 pm

No probably not. I just wanted to point out to sdwoodchuck that death as a senseless and abrupt thing is a common theme for most of the classic Gundam shows. In fact it was always my understanding as a fan that this exact thing was suppose to be the big takeaway from Gundam. Violence begets violence. It's a cruel and unending cycle. In what I would consider the better Gundam shows they either show how violence leads to mutually assured destruction or the protagonists find a way to escape the cycle. Either way the conclusion comes at a heavy cost. I feel like many of the newer shows forget that and focus too much on the robot porn and/or more conventional anime tropes to lure in audiences. I give Build Fighters a pass because it is fun and it never hides the fact that it's just one big model kit commercial. In that way it's the most honest show in the whole franchise :)
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:11 pm

Ok... I'll stop responding to whatever sdwoodchuck says.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:18 pm

phillosmaster wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:07 pm
No probably not. I just wanted to point out to sdwoodchuck that death as a senseless and abrupt thing is a common theme for most of the classic Gundam shows. In fact it was always my understanding as a fan that this exact thing was suppose to be the big takeaway from Gundam. Violence begets violence. It's a cruel and unending cycle. In what I would consider the better Gundam shows they either show how violence leads to mutually assured destruction or the protagonists find a way to escape the cycle. Either way the conclusion comes at a heavy cost. I feel like many of the newer shows forget that and focus too much on the robot porn and/or more conventional anime tropes to lure in audiences. I give Build Fighters a pass because it is fun and it never hides the fact that it's just one big model kit commercial. In that way it's the most honest show in the whole franchise :)
Senseless and abrupt death is definitely a common piece of Gundam, and that's not what I'm complaining about here. There's a difference between death interrupting a character's progression through life, and an aborted narrative arc. Look at, as an example, Matilda from 0079; one of the earliest and still most abrupt character deaths in the franchise. She has a very well-defined character arc. It's a small one, but it does exactly what it sets out to do. She becomes a friendly face to the White Base in enemy territory, she introduces the concept of Newtypes, and she becomes a symbol to Amuro of the good, caring side of the Federation. It's only after she's served this purpose to the narrative that she's killed off. It's still abrupt; it's still interrupting her life (and a point of this is even made with her husband being brought up), but the facets of her character arc that are set up are played through the narrative. This is starkly different from--
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Hush, who gets a setup that pushes him one direction, but never pays that direction off. It just plops him in his goal, and then aborts, and then kills him without ever actually paying off his character setup in the narrative.
EDIT: Or if you want an example from within IBO:
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Aston works too. His character arc is paid off, and his death is still abrupt and unnecessary without undermining his narrative. He is actually a really well-written supporting character. He's human debris that has spent his life facing death at someone else's orders because he had no other choice, and has been rescued from that life and is slowly adjusting to the idea that his life is no longer at someone else's whim. Takaki takes him in as a friend, and it is as a friend that Aston chooses the actions that lead him to his death. In his final moments, he has finally thrown off the oppression and psychological conditioning that is being "human debris," and has chosen his life actions for himself. Yes, he dies as a result of those actions, but in actually choosing to face that, he has, in his last moments, taken willful control of his life. It is a complete narrative arc, and ends upon its completion.
Last edited by sdwoodchuck on Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:24 pm

Hmm... I think I can understand why McGillis never fully trusted Gaileo or tried to bring him in on his ambitions to overthrow Gjarrhorn. Given the harsh life he grew up in and the constant abuse he went through with Izanario, he resents Gjarrhorn and the world they represent. In this world, adults are a-holes who can't be trusted especially if you lived in a live of despair and poverty, while Tekkadan should've known better than to go with McGillis's words, even if they never made a deal with him they would still have been targeted by Rustal because of the Dort Colony incident.

Gaileo, who knew about the corruption, wants to maintain the status quo, seemed like he never tried to really understand McGillis and I'm guessing that because Gaileo was quite arrogant, racist and looked down on people, McGillis could not fully trust him, but appreciate their friendship. How can a rich guy like Gaileo know what its like to grow up in poverty and fighting just to survive for another day and then get abused by your caretaker, that's the type of world Gaileo knows nothing about because of his status. Yes Gaileo got better and mellowed out compared to his season 1 version, but the question is what would he do now?

Just something I was pondering on.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by AmuroNT1 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:30 pm

Well, my thoughts on this week...
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I've been wondering which massive character mis-judgement amuses me more: the Dragon Ball fans who watch Super and think Goku is becoming an amoral villain simply to get a good fight, or the people who assumed McGillis was an evil backstabbing monster who ordered Orga's assassination so he could manipulate Mika. His death scene pretty well confirms that he was completely earnest with his desires, and even that he DID view Gaelio and Carta as friends despite his other remarks over the course of the season. And they imply that this has a pretty big impact on Gaelio, and why not? He got his revenge, and it was clearly a hollow victory. One of IBO's major recurring themes is the pointlessness of revenge, and it just got reinforced even further. I'm not sure if he'll outright betray Rustal, but there's no way he's going to just sit idly on the sidelines for the final episode.

Part of me wonders if the series is going to end with all the Gundams destroyed. Flauros, Bael, and Kimaris are down, which (at least in the anime) leaves only Barbatos and Gusion. People have been talking about the symbolism going on here, like the show's two big idealists (Orga and McGillis) getting killed and how Hush's death represents that Tekkadan's new generation has no future. Maybe the Gundams, the last remaining symbols of the Old World, will have to be destroyed before things advance.

As for Hush...let's be honest here. Anyone who's been paying attention throughout this season knew he was not a good pilot. Every time we saw him in training, he got his butt kicked. Every time we saw him in actual combat, he was getting bailed out by a better pilot. I believe he only scored two kills in his entire career. Even here, his death happened not because of Deus Ex Machina or writer fiat, but because he made two very simple, very stupid mistakes: he took his eyes off the battlefield long enough for two opponents to get the jump on him, and then he focused on one so much that the other got into his blind spot. In fact, I'd have to rewatch the season to be certain, but I'm fairly sure he was told "Pay attention!" every single time he messed up in battle.

Hush wasn't going to become some super-ace pilot just by hanging off of Mikazuki like a remora. Throughout this season we were shown that he was not cut out for piloting, but he persisted in trying and ultimately paid the price. If anything, I would say that the point of his character arc was a tragic, visceral demonstration that the romanticized, fanfic-y notion of "Anyone can become an ace pilot!" is simply not true. It takes talent, skill, and battle sense, all of which Hush lacked.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Soma Taozi » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:41 pm

I appreciate watching a Gundam series that has a lower-key finale, with every other series has a big-bombastic final battle with super-weapons, crazy masked men, and lots and lots of head-shots...IBO's is a nice change.

I can see where people are coming from by asking for "tension" in terms of a narrative plot twists. I think something should be said about a series that doesn't appear to be going to pull out a deus ex machina to save any of them. Basically the show is telling us that these characters made their bed and they have to sleep in it.
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Mcgillis, for all his smirks, could not overcome the forces against him. He didn't have a great grand plan, he was just a man trying to overcome the will of the world (get some sweet, sweet vengeance) and those systems in place. He over-reached during the last 10 or so episodes...and it cost him.
Someone mentioned Victory Gundam's finale in relation to IBOs, but I have to disagree with that assessment. The deaths in Victory felt bitter and mean-spirited, like Tomino was just spitting in our faces for daring to get attached to these characters and should be as depressed as he was at that time (I have issues with Victory). IBO's finale, although not perfect nor uplifting, carries with it a sense that these characters are fighting FOR something. That their deaths have meaning and purpose, even if none of them survive the outcome or accomplish their goals.

This final really just depends on how attached you have gotten to these characters over the course of 49 episodes. I have grown to love these characters and thus, I am fully invested in the final. Yet I can see how this falls flat for some, but I want to Raise my Flag and let it be known that I like watching these Survivor, Fighter(s) Rage of Stardust against Gjallarhorn.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:47 pm

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If Hush was written as a character who was in over his head, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, that's really not how he's written. He has the beginnings of a tragic arc, and then he gets shoved into the background until he dies. It's not that he's cut out to be an ace pilot (that would have been an even more laughable turn), but tragedy doesn't work with a character who has no narrative thrust. He's almost like a Katz from Zeta, except that Katz actually gets that arc. Katz tags along because he looks up to Amuro, tries to follow in his footsteps and can't, and because he finds that he's not prepared to handle battle (not only combat, but the emotional strain) he winds up in a situation where he can't win, and pays the price.

If you were to rewrite Katz such that after "Amuro Flies Again" he joins the AEUG, and from that point forward gets a few appearances and a few lines, but strictly no other development at all until his death scene, then you'd have something along the lines of Hush in IBO.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:10 pm

Soma Taozi wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:41 pm
This final really just depends on how attached you have gotten to these characters over the course of 49 episodes. I have grown to love these characters and thus, I am fully invested in the final. Yet I can see how this falls flat for some, but I want to Raise my Flag and let it be known that I like watching these Survivor, Fighter(s) Rage of Stardust against Gjallarhorn.
I think my problem is actually the opposite of what you're describing. I have grown to like the characters (at least some of them) quite a lot, but I'm disliking the ending because it feels like all of the narrative push has been misplaced. We have so many side characters that really don't provide any narrative weight, but get partial character arcs, while we have major players (the villain, for example) who get no actual development at all.

And it's a shame, because I agree with you that a more low key ending is a welcome change, but it's like that low key is in the wrong octave. From a purely plot standpoint, sure they've made their bed and now they have to sleep in it, which works just fine, but the characters that have been the object of narrative focus (with the exception of Orga and maybe Gaelio) don't actually jive with that plot.

I suppose if I were to break it down more specifically: The plot is largely fine. If you take IBO as a big picture, without focusing on the details, the story it tells is complete, and works. It's in the details that it hamstrings itself.

I agree with you 100% about the comparisons to Victory being ill-founded though. I think Victory has some great moments, but those moments get overshadowed by an overall tone that is, as you describe, bitter and mean-spirited. I can't quite figure out if Tomino's depression is turned to sadistic lashing out at the audience or Sunrise, or if it's a more masochistic caving into his own cynicism and punishing himself for wanting to have good characters. In any case, the result is a mess, and while I'd say IBO stumbles, it's not nearly a train-wreck.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:05 pm

I wonder if Sunrise would be interested or is pondering about making a OVA/movie about the Calamity War. Unlike other past conflicts in other shows (Age) there are more remnants of it that still plague the world in IBO. Seeing humanity unite to fight the threat of extinction from their own creation the mobile armors, that sounds pretty exciting.

From a marketing and merchandising standpoint, Bandai can use a Calamity war movie/OVA to make the Calamity War versions of the Gundams, like the original Gusion and the Barbatos with its original weapons, as well as color variations.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Blazer-X » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:48 pm

So the most interesting anti-hero dies in a battle with a former friend who uses a lance in the penultimate episode, and has a heartfelt convo right before the end. Huh... am I watching Gundam Age or IBO?

Julietta, depending on what she or her special unit is piloting, might be an ass-pull near Vagan Gear's level, which would be really bad. I am SERIOUSLY hoping for Galileo heel turn at this point before that happens.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by SNT1 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:07 pm

I feel like many of the newer shows forget that and focus too much on the robot porn and/or more conventional anime tropes to lure in audiences.
Meanwhile IBO likes to focus on pilots getting impaled, blood on their eyes and their mouth, and some death speech about things like we're supposed to care and feel sorry for the rest of them :lol:

In fact IBO would have been better if it had more "robot porn" (something IBO does really, really well if the writers decide to put some in) and less of these so called "character developments" that's largely been put away and replaced by crappy small talk until this episode.
AmuroNT1 wrote: I would say that the point of his character arc was a tragic, visceral demonstration that the romanticized, fanfic-y notion of "Anyone can become an ace pilot!" is simply not true. It takes talent, skill, and battle sense, all of which Hush lacked.
Is Hush's status of becoming a human walking stick and being a yes-man for about 15 episodes... good character development to you, regardless of his skills in MS?
(>-.-)>-} >>---> \(x.x)/

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:19 pm

SNT1 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:07 pm
AmuroNT1 wrote: I would say that the point of his character arc was a tragic, visceral demonstration that the romanticized, fanfic-y notion of "Anyone can become an ace pilot!" is simply not true. It takes talent, skill, and battle sense, all of which Hush lacked.
Is Hush's status of becoming a human walking stick and being a yes-man for about 15 episodes... good character development to you, regardless of his skills in MS?
Ultimately Hush was recognized by Mika not only as someone to protect but as a capable comrade hence why he "left that area to Hush" eventhough he knew he was dead/dying. Ultimately he was recognized as a capable pilot.

Someone said it before but the message from IBO really is like a mob/mafia movie. You do not have to accept the hand you are dealt and you can take your fate into your own hands. However, if you are willing to put your needs ahead of others then be prepared to deal with the consequences. Basically, if you reach too far (McGillis planning to take over Gallajhorn and Tekkadan planning to take over Mars) was when they ran into trouble.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by SNT1 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:26 pm

domino wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:19 pm
Ultimately Hush was recognized by Mika not only as someone to protect but as a capable comrade hence why he "left that area to Hush" eventhough he knew he was dead/dying. Ultimately he was recognized as a capable pilot.
I thought Mika was just saying nice words that one would say to a dying comrade.
(>-.-)>-} >>---> \(x.x)/

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by AmuroNT1 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:55 pm

SNT1 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:07 pm
Is Hush's status of becoming a human walking stick and being a yes-man for about 15 episodes... good character development to you, regardless of his skills in MS?
When did I ever say it was character development? I said it was his character ARC. There's a difference.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by SNT1 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:57 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:55 pm
SNT1 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:07 pm
Is Hush's status of becoming a human walking stick and being a yes-man for about 15 episodes... good character development to you, regardless of his skills in MS?
When did I ever say it was character development? I said it was his character ARC. There's a difference.
I didn't say you said it was character development. I am asking if you think that his "ARC" was properly handled and if you consider it good character development.
(>-.-)>-} >>---> \(x.x)/

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:20 am

SNT1 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:26 pm
domino wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:19 pm
Ultimately Hush was recognized by Mika not only as someone to protect but as a capable comrade hence why he "left that area to Hush" eventhough he knew he was dead/dying. Ultimately he was recognized as a capable pilot.
I thought Mika was just saying nice words that one would say to a dying comrade.
Clearly it was more than that. Mika usually says "Get out of the way" or "retreat". He rarely leaves the field to someone unless he believes in their ability. It was respect.

I'm not sure what other development you could've asked for Hush.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Loop_Stratos » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:37 am

Can we hope to see Gundam Vidar a last time? Or better a Gundam Vidar Repair?
IMO

This is just a block of text. Move on.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Kuruni » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:38 am

IBO Gundam is called Gundam if it used Gundam frame. In case of Vidar, any Gundam frame can become Vidar since it's disguise form.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:32 pm

domino wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:20 am
SNT1 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:26 pm
domino wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:19 pm
Ultimately Hush was recognized by Mika not only as someone to protect but as a capable comrade hence why he "left that area to Hush" eventhough he knew he was dead/dying. Ultimately he was recognized as a capable pilot.
I thought Mika was just saying nice words that one would say to a dying comrade.
Clearly it was more than that. Mika usually says "Get out of the way" or "retreat". He rarely leaves the field to someone unless he believes in their ability. It was respect.

I'm not sure what other development you could've asked for Hush.
Mika clearly sees that Hush is on the cusp of death. He's not actually leaving any real responsibility to him. I'd call this a checkmark in the column of Mikazuki's (heavily delayed) character arc, but definitely not Hush's. This episode is the first time Mikazuki seems to do anything in relation to Tekkadan that isn't just being a blunt instrument, and it has both his speech, and this moment of comforting a comrade in death. Prior to this, Mika hasn't shown much of an understanding of death or loss at all.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:31 pm

The scene focused a lot more on Hush than it did Mika. The cinematography and even the inner thoughts.

Mika showed development by speaking out that Tekkadan (and especially he) need to continue Orga's orders - but he still focused on being the "blunt instrument" you mentioned.

Meanwhile, like I said before, Hush has achieved his goal of being a pilot and even being recognized by Mika WHICH WERE HIS FINAL WORDS!! That he will reach Mika. If Mika was "comforting" him (and that's something Mika only recently started doing for his personal harem) then he did so by acknowledging and accepting Hush's final request rather than telling him to retreat - which is what he said EVERY OTHER TIME he saved Hush.

The power of that scene was not only Hush's resolve even in the face of despair but also that Mika did not dismiss him.

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