The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by BrentD15 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:00 pm

Amion wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:42 pm
I'm calling it now that the writers just didn't plan out McGillis' ultimate plan at all. In fact, if he already had the AV ready, why not use Gundam Bael to slay Hashmal? He knew of the Mobile Armor ahead of everyone else. He knew how to pilot Gundam Bael, he had the enemy the whole Absolute Authority Rule was supposed to fight sitting there in Tekkadan's backyard. He may be an idiot otherwise, but Iok Kujan actually had the correct idea! If McGillis had played things smart, he could have lined his ducks all up in a row and shot them one-by-one systematically. So I'm disappointed. The story had great potential, but its staff didn't pull the elements together right. Oh well, at least we have a descent setup, and not a Destiny screwup.
Is it kinda like Scirocco, who we didn't fully know his plans and can only speculate? :P
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by X_zoro » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:02 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:35 pm
I wouldn't necessarily say the writers flip-flopped on McGillis, he might have modified his plans after seeing Mika taking down the mobile armor and thought to try the AV implant on himself, and possibly to use the Bael as a symbol of power after seeing Mika bring out the full potential of the Barbatos Lupus.

Its very easy to tell McGillis was going to fight with Rustal's fleet, why would we think otherwise? Sure maybe McGillis could've gotten more forces via the other families but now the battle is more desperate on the protagonists side, which is a good way to ramp up the tension. I wonder if he has the Mars and Jupiter forces participate, maybe make a deal with Teiwaz?

I'm also curious at how the economic bloc leaders on Earth are going to do? Given that Rustal provoked a conflict with Arbrau and SAU they might try to get back at him by allying with McGillis.
Yeah I actually agree with this and it makes sense when you think about it.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by AmuroNT1 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:37 pm

I think you can look at McGillis's plan as one that's in a constant state of evolution. The end goal is the destruction of Gjallarhorn, which he sees as a symbol of greed and oppression, while the means of doing so have been fluid the entire time. When he proposed the whole Graze Ein thing, he wasn't planning on getting an AV implant; he just wanted irrefutable proof of Gjallarhorn's corruption and reckless disregard for civilian life, best exemplified by an insane man in a super-powerful mobile suit rampaging through a city.

While he was of course aware that Gundams are powerful machines, McGillis didn't really seem to consider them symbols of power until Mika took down the Hashmal. If you'll recall, Macky didn't even want the thing activated; he was talking with Orga about destroying the thing safely when Iok paraded in and screwed everything up. But the whole thing gave him a lightbulb moment, and he decided to use the research gained from cyborg-ifying Ein to give himself an AV implant despite being an adult, which he pretty well confirmed this week.

Also, I'm kind of iffy on all the people here claiming that McGillis is "definitely" going to turn on Tekkadan or do terrible things to Almirya. The thing to remember is that he's been there; in fact, had he been on Mars rather than Earth, Macky might have been one of CGS's cannon fodder kids who eventually rose up to become Tekkadan. He values Tekkadan since they came from the same roots, therefore he trusts them to be different from the greedy bureaucrats in power now. As for Almirya, well, he was in that boat too, a child who was basically just an unwanted political tool. He's sympathetic to her and wants her to have a better life.

And for the people wondering why he didn't try to get Carta or Gaelio on his side: They were part of the Seven Stars families, and therefore part of the problem. If you went up to someone and said "Hey, so you know that system that's been in place for hundreds of years that's made your family richer than God and basically kings of the planet? I want to destroy it. Wanna help?", what do you THINK their reaction would be?
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:47 pm

I fully agree with what AmuroNT1 said.

I also don't see why Gaileo is considered heroic all of a sudden. He didn't do anything resembling heroic, its a revenge thing for him with McGillis. He also took down some colony protesters that tried to do a uprising against Gjharrhorn. The only thing I give him credit for is that he matured up and doesn't look down on people anymore via Mars or people with AV implants.

Sure McGillis is manipulating people and using his wife as a political tool, but has he done anything to hurt innocent people or civilians like Gjharrhorn is doing which is one of the reasons he wants to take down the organization. I'm glad AmuroNT1 pointed out now that we've seen McGillis awful childhood that he relates to Tekkadan and he has respect for Mika, given they came from nothing and lived very abusive childhoods. I find it quite unlikely McGillis is going to screw over Tekkadan who has no ambitions to anything on Earth, they just want a better life on Mars and that's it.

If anything I can see another Mobile Armor being activated, possibly to screw over McGillis to serve as a end boss near the ending of the show.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Dark Duel » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:10 pm

The best thing I can say about Gali-Gali that was even close to heroic was that during the Dort colony incident, IIRC he was quite vocal about his distaste for this kind of operation. And as for his about-face on the AV System, well it would be hypocritical in the extreme for him to continue to parrot the official line on the subject given that he now relies on it, or a version of it, himself. So while I commend him for apologizing to Mika about that previously, I don't really find it all that commendable per se either beyond the fact that it proves that he's at least honest about it.
As for his opposition to McGillis, there's nothing inherently heroic about it IMO - it makes perfect sense for him to be opposed to the guy who tried to kill him.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by SNT1 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:42 pm

I also don't see why Gaileo is considered heroic all of a sudden. He didn't do anything resembling heroic, its a revenge thing for him with McGillis. He also took down some colony protesters that tried to do a uprising against Gjharrhorn. The only thing I give him credit for is that he matured up and doesn't look down on people anymore via Mars or people with AV implants.
It's heroic in the sense that he's about to avenge Carta's and Ein's death from the dude who had them killed. Let's face it, Gaelio was pretty much a status-quo guy who had some doubts about Gjallahorn's actions (his flashback last episode where he agreed with Macky that Gjallahorn has some corruption), but McGillis in comparison did some legit dick moves, including his failed "Obey me" moments in the Bael. Show those facts alone, who's more of the "good guy" and who's more of the "bad guy"?

No one will be as pure as Virgin Yamato in this gritty series. Like I said, the only thing that's stopping Gaelio from being the bar-none "good guy" is that he's also allied with a guy who's an even bigger jerk in Rustal.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Amion » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:04 pm

No, McGillis tells Mika in this episode that he was doing his research for adult AVs on Ein. It was specifically for that purpose, and he wanted Bael from childhood. Activating it was ALWAYS in his ultimate plan.

Also, AmuroNT1 misses the whole point. McGillis' "reform Gjallarhorn" intentions has yet to be truly mapped out. Asking Carta and Galileo to help is not tantamount in any way to "let's destroy our status and wealth." Never is that mentioned nor is it even likely to be a consequence of their success. In fact, McGillis becoming master of Gjallarhorn, and by extension Earth, would improve the wealth and resources of the Fareed, Issue and Bauduin Houses considerably.

Moreover, killing them, once again, caused no benefit for him, save maybe pegging blame on Gali-Gali for Ein, although at this point no one's brought it up in association with him, so we can assume that wasn't it. at the end of the day, McGillis gaining control over the majority of Gjallarnhorn via Bael would have succeeded had he been revealed to have clean hands, and not treacherously stained ones.

Also, none of this has or was ever meant to have bearing on whether or not Rustal and Friends would cooperate. It was always clear Rustal would fight McGillis. The question here is whether Macky has the forces to fight on equal or superior terms, rather than in an underdog fight with Rustal's superior armada.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:03 am

Carta was a incompetent buffoon like Iok who are no use in Gjharrhorn, you saw how she handled her fleet and often ignored orders to do what she wanted.

And I don't agree about McGillis succeeding with his plans even if he had clean hands with the Bael, you know Rustal would not have let that happen and lose power in the organization. McGillis has to get his hands dirty just to survive from Rustal's machinations. McGillis is not a pure virgin preaching leader like certain Gundam shows, he has to get his hands dirty in this corrupt organization via outside means in order to reach his goals. Similar to Lelouch from Code Geass. Hell... also a lot like Char...

Gaileo saw part of the corruption in Ghjarrhorn but is fine with the status quo and take a active role in stopping Tekkadan and did not even care that the Graze Ein went to fight in a populated city, I doubt McGillis would have done the things he wanted to have done if he had Gaileo on his side. Gaileo was part of that elite and racist part of Gjharrhorn but also had somewhat decent goals. McGillis is willing to take down the corruption of Gjharrhorn even if it meant spilling blood in the organization while Gaileo isn't until just now. Gaileo does not mind back then and now allying himself with a group that commits war crimes. Yes while he did not want to launch against the Dort workers, he did not mind if his subordinate (Ein) shot down a civilian shuttle. McGillis did not take part in a any of this war crime sorties and those kinds of things help fuel his justification in taking down Gjarrhorn.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:00 am

Lemme see here...
SNT1 wrote:It's heroic in the sense that he's about to avenge Carta's and Ein's death from the dude who had them killed.
Except that this series, perhaps more than any other Gundam show, has been all about how revenge is a terrible goal that's often poisonous and self-destructive.
-Ein's quest to avenge Crank (who sacrificed himself specifically so that his subordinates wouldn't suffer the backlash) ended with him getting mauled, turned into a "wetware" computer for a Psyco Gundam stand-in, and losing his sanity.
-Iok's attempts to destroy the Hashmal in the name of his dead subordinates, which was treated both by viewers and people in-universe as so stupid that it bordered on insanity.
-Tekkadan going full Mafia every time a member of their family is killed, regardless of the consequences. While it's true for Biscuit and Aston, the most recent instance of their taking on Jasley in the names of Naze, Amida, and Lafter is the clearest example, since it required them to quit Teiwaz, cutting them off from a key source of protection, resources, and political clout.
SNT1 wrote:Let's face it, Gaelio was pretty much a status-quo guy who had some doubts about Gjallahorn's actions (his flashback last episode where he agreed with Macky that Gjallahorn has some corruption), but McGillis in comparison did some legit dick moves, including his failed "Obey me" moments in the Bael. Show those facts alone, who's more of the "good guy" and who's more of the "bad guy"?
I dunno if I can agree with that. Gaelio's attitude in the first season could most charitably be described as "It kinda sucks, but it's still the best way to do things." While he was generally a good person (as mentioned, he was disgusted by the Dort rioters being gunned down and didn't want Edmonton caught in the crossfire), he wasn't willing to stick his neck out to oppose Gjallarhorn's corruption, let alone speak out against it. And now, he's willingly defending that corruption simply because he has a personal vendetta against the person who's trying to dismantle it.

Also, I don't quite see how McGillis' use of Bael qualifies as a "legitimate dick move". If anything, he wanted to assume command of Gjallarhorn with as little bloodshed as possible.
yazi88 wrote:Carta was a incompetent buffoon like Iok who are no use in Gjharrhorn, you saw how she handled her fleet and often ignored orders to do what she wanted.
I can't really call Carta incompetent, since the word implies lack of talent or ability. Sure, she was foolish to try and act it's still the age of knights and chivalry, but she still earned her spot at the head of the Outer Earth Regulatory Yadda-Yadda-Yadda.

As for McGillis killing his friends...well, he didn't kill Carta at all, for starters; that was all on her. And with Gaelio, keeping him alive would have no benefit either, and would more than likely have hurt his plans by having someone on the other side who understands his thoughts and methods.

And I'm not going to go and say things like "The writers are flip-flopping! They don't know what they're doing!" simply because we don't know that. I prefer not to get caught up in the kind of crazy, baseless speculation that's been rife with Gundam (and most fandoms, come to that) about certain staff members being bad at their jobs just because we don't like this event or that plot twist.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Kuruni » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:55 am

To me, this conflict resemble actual politic in very uncomfortable way.

McGillis want to get rid of corruption within Gjallarhorn, but much of his plan is delusioned. He has ideal, but it's connected to legend that is hardly has anything to does with present. In other words, he is idealist liberal.

I would like to guess from Rustal's conversation with Iok in this episode that he think the world need Gjallarhorn to keep everything in order. He has more realistic view on the situation. But he himself is currently the biggest reason of Gjallarhorn's corruption. In other words, he is conservative who want the system to remain regardless of how bad it is.

The worse is that both ar willing to commit brutal crime and manipulation to get what they want. Even worse is that is that our heroes, Tekkadan, is only matter in this conflict because they are with McGillis, tilt his chance of success from "impossible" to "unlikely". Just like IRL (and completely unlike Cosmic Era), there is no "good" third choice and people pick what they think as lesser of two evils that would benefit them more.

Irony, I think that if Kudelia choose to accept Makanai's proposal to make her his successor, I think the whole thing will be a little more hopeful.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Rawhloe » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:41 am

Why does everyone(even the characters in the show) talk about Carta being killed by Mackie? He obviously wasn't even near, It was Mika who pulverized her. Or do you mean that she got the information of the train's route from him while he knew that they are going to be defeated? That makes some sense but she was the one foolish enough to challenge them with 3 grazes and demand stuff.

I really like the new ideas this show brings to the table. I agree with some of you from before, it also took the place of 00 in my heart as my favorite gundam series. That being said I can't help but worry about the way they direct/pace things. There were and still are a lot of useless characters the show creators don't know what to do with. In the worst cases they even focus on them in a half-assed way for 3-5 episodes straight like that would make me care about them more. But with the occasional action I forget all the shortcomings and it glues me to the screen. Oh well, hope they don't mess the finale up.

Kuruni wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:55 am
To me, this conflict resemble actual politic in very uncomfortable way.

McGillis want to get rid of corruption within Gjallarhorn, but much of his plan is delusioned. He has ideal, but it's connected to legend that is hardly has anything to does with present. In other words, he is idealist liberal.
I'm not saying that you aren't right somewhat but for me McGillis' actions cries Mussolini-like fascism so much it's not even funny anymore. The whole history based idealism(roman empire), the uprising itself, him being a charming fellow to the masses, ultimate power in one hand, etc.

Rustal on the other hand is more realistic and in the now like you said, his views are similar to the current political structures in the western world.

Amion wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:04 pm

Moreover, killing them, once again, caused no benefit for him, save maybe pegging blame on Gali-Gali for Ein, although at this point no one's brought it up in association with him, so we can assume that wasn't it. at the end of the day, McGillis gaining control over the majority of Gjallarnhorn via Bael would have succeeded had he been revealed to have clean hands, and not treacherously stained ones.
I always thought he needed to get rid of Gali in order to gain rank within the system(as the only remaining son) so he won't get ordered around; therefore having more freedom to do his research and to get access to Bael.
yazi88 wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:47 pm
I also don't see why Gaileo is considered heroic all of a sudden. He didn't do anything resembling heroic, its a revenge thing for him with McGillis. He also took down some colony protesters that tried to do a uprising against Gjharrhorn. The only thing I give him credit for is that he matured up and doesn't look down on people anymore via Mars or people with AV implants.
Same. He was cool and all but it seemed a bit forced to me. I really hope he won't take the spotlight as the new main hero of the show all of the sudden but I gotta admit, it seems like it.

Kinda offtopic, for some reason the McGillis childhood abuse story reminded me a lot to the Danish movie Festen.

(also, hi everyone, just jumped in)

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by X_zoro » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:04 am

With the new Kimaris being shown it looks like we might still have one more Gundam frame https://i.redd.it/x5gl4zzzvzgy.jpg as we can see that one looks nothing like the new Kimaris https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8HMpP5WziYU/ ... 1%2529.jpg

So what dose that mean ?

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Kuruni » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:25 am

X_zoro wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:04 am
With the new Kimaris being shown it looks like we might still have one more Gundam frame https://i.redd.it/x5gl4zzzvzgy.jpg as we can see that one looks nothing like the new Kimaris https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8HMpP5WziYU/ ... 1%2529.jpg

So what dose that mean ?
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Rawhloe wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:41 am
Why does everyone(even the characters in the show) talk about Carta being killed by Mackie? He obviously wasn't even near, It was Mika who pulverized her.
Welcome aboard. I think McGillis does set up Carta's death at degree. At that point, I think Carta is actually quick to react despite her initial bad decision. But by remind her of how he admire her honorable approach, McGillis lock her in mindset that will only get herself killed. Still, it's Carta's own bad decision that get herself killed and McGillis' push won't work if she has some common sense (like, at least has one man ready to destroy the rail).

Funny enough, technically Gaelio is more of a Char than McGillis now. He's willing to accept Rustal's corruption in order to revenge McGillis, much like how Char was supposed to be in original 52 episodes version. McGillis' scheme is indeed ruthless and he has full right to seek revenge, but that doesn't make it anymore heroic. He's growth up and more reasonable than suring S1, sure, but the only thing that seem heroic about him is that hot-blooded shonen anime hairdo (which is cool).
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by zetatype » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:09 am

Rawhloe wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:41 am
Why does everyone(even the characters in the show) talk about Carta being killed by Mackie? He obviously wasn't even near, It was Mika who pulverized her. Or do you mean that she got the information of the train's route from him while he knew that they are going to be defeated? That makes some sense but she was the one foolish enough to challenge them with 3 grazes and demand stuff.
To be fair I don't think anyone but tekkadan knew how that fight went down. Everyone else probably just assumed she walked into an ambush. Whether or not it's her fault it doesn't change the fact McGillis gave her the information because he wanted tekkadan to remove her. He probably knew she would try demanding a duel instead of ambushing the train to make up for the difference in strength between her and Tekkadan. I mean this the same person who thought it was a good idea for her and her men to pose out in the open when she attacked the island.

McGillis giving Carta the train's route, knowing she would most likely perish, is kinda like giving someone with suicidal tendencies the means to commit suicide.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Rawhloe » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:19 am

yeah fair enough, though as you said I'm not sure how Rustal/Gaelio know about this. Carta attacked tekkadan like 4(I think) times so from the outsider's perspective McGillis machinations would go unnoticed as it could be considered a normal day for her. Maybe I just don't remember some dialogue.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by zetatype » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:46 pm

Rawhloe wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:19 am
yeah fair enough, though as you said I'm not sure how Rustal/Gaelio know about this. Carta attacked tekkadan like 4(I think) times so from the outsider's perspective McGillis machinations would go unnoticed as it could be considered a normal day for her. Maybe I just don't remember some dialogue.
McGillis might have mentioned it to Gaelio when they fought in at the end of S1.

Or it could be that Rustal and Gaelio are just making assumptions. Back when tekkadan was travelling on the train to edmonton, Gjallahorn HQ had no idea where Tekkadan was. And yet Carta somehow found out their location and later perished in battle. Combine this with the fact McGillis would benefit from Gaelio and Carta's deaths and that McGillis himself made an attempt on Gaelio's life it is not a stretch to suspect Mcgillis had a hand in Carta's death. It's not hard proof, but it is enough cause suspision. Also McGillis not denying the claim doesn't help.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Dark Duel » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:01 pm

IIRC, it was either specifically mentioned or heavily implied in a conversation between Lord Iznario and Carta prior to that final attack that McGillis had learned Tekkadan's location.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:08 pm

I think McGillis told Carta in secret about Tekkadan's location cause she'll get killed in combat.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Dark Duel » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:01 am

At the very least, McGillis thought it was probable that Carta would fail if she attempted to pursue Tekkadan, given that the Outer Earth Orbit Regulatory Joint Fleet is, at this point, essentially a paper tiger rather than a true combat-ready military force - it's "just for show", and would remain so until he takes them in hand following his succession to that post after the Edmonton incident.
So yeah, I'd agree that he was counting on Carta being defeated, and probably killed.
Dark Duel wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:01 pm
IIRC, it was either specifically mentioned or heavily implied in a conversation between Lord Iznario and Carta prior to that final attack that McGillis had learned Tekkadan's location.
I just went back and checked - the conversation in question takes place at the beginning of Ep23.
Lord Iznario says two things of not during that conversation:

"I've received word that [Makanai] is heading towards Edmonton with some group calling themselves "Tekkadan"."
Then a little later, he goes on to say:
"[McGillis] has been tracking their movements for some time, and will provide you with more details soon."

So they actually do explicitly indicate that McGillis provided Lord Iznario with Tekkadan and Makanai's location and course, and relayed their detailed position directly to Carta and her two flunkies.
The outcome of that confrontation, of course, is as predictable as it is inevitable.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Kuruni » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:06 am

zetatype wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:09 am
I mean this the same person who thought it was a good idea for her and her men to pose out in the open when she attacked the island.
It's irony that as someone noted on TV Tropes, that formation and pose is useless against MS armed with rifle but it would be cool and actually useful to protect civilian from Hushmal's beam cannon.
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