The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

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Amion
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Amion » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:55 pm

You may have something there about the distinctions between Gjallarhorn and Tekkadan and how one is growing while the other appears stilted in that regard.

I'd have to disagree it's a matter of pacing preference with Season 1. The Fafner franchise, of which I've become a big fan, knows how to split cool-down and development time with fighting. Exodus, the sequel to the original Fafner, had some pacing issues near its end. But even so it still managed to combine downtime with showtime. The first 13 episodes of Exodus were perfect, as good as it gets, giving whole episodes to show how things were "taking root" as you mention Phillosmaster. But that didn't stop the series from having energy! Far from it, in fact the series brims with desperation and uncertainty.

IBO had a low-key setup that reminded me of Cowboy Beebop with a smudge of Outlaw Star, focusing on a down in the dirt story with young men trying to find a better place in the world, some of them with typical philandering bachelor personalities and outlooks on the world, some who desired a place to belong, and an almost mysterious yearning from Orga and Mika to find their "place".

But neither of the previous mentioned shows felt slow or off-beat the way IBO's S1 did. They built significant plot up and finished it entirely by their final episodes. Other Gundam series have had significant time for characters to just sit back and coast. Zeta had plenty of this, even with a battle in almost every episode. There was always time for a philosophical debate or discussion on the nature of the soul or state of the Federation's union. :)

IBO, by contrast, spent a great deal of time not really moving at all. There were plenty of cases where characters didn't actually say anything of worth that had not already been repeated numerous times. This is why some argue that the characters didn't really develop. They mean the IBO boys didn't really grow out of who they already were. Only Kudelia, Biscuit, Fumitan, Orga and Mika (in that order, imo) expand beyond their skeletal structure. Two of these three parish by S1, and Kudelia disappears as a primary element in S2, despite being relevant anyway, which I think is testament to her growth.

Eugene's big scene, for instance, was a nosebleed and ramming a ship into a war station, something not really impressive compared to earlier feats on his part... Poor Akahiro doesn't really gain much or show much onscreen, even after the cheesy loss of Masahiro, aside from making a nice statement. And then he returns to the gym and we hear no more from him outside of combat.

But really, to undermine my whole lengthy babble up above, the characters developed fine, and I argued for them all through S1. But what really goes wrong is how slowly this happens. It's like taking too little paint and spreading it over too much wall, to rob Tolkien of a useful metaphor, revised. :mrgreen: If written by someone other than Okada, who is known for sometimes slow-pacing her work, (like the Fafner writers) or better yet, what she's done in S2, we could have easily gotten everything from S1 in half the time it took, give or take a few episodes.

There was an article, I think LightningCount posted it, that had the director and Okada admitting they really didn't have an exact plot laid down for the first half of the show outside of "escort Kudelia to Earth." That kind of plot doesn't require much time, especially if it lacks significant hurdles. The worst we got was "it's a long way from Mars to Earth"... right. But not so cool when much the time spent on this journey involves the "Dead space". This doesn't include necessarily the "laid back" talking scenes, but waste of actual airtime in how the episodes as a whole were structured. The dialogue sessions especially suffer from the overstretched structure, which is why many point out to them as the cause for the snail's pace, especially with little enough action to be had.

We have this problem, so far as I've been able to tell, rampant in most modern anime. Code Geass is an interesting exception that parallels well with 00, which ran around the same time. The former doesn't have this issue, it's plot never or rarely allowed for it.

Conversely, 00 wastes lengthy minutes on conversations that could be happening much faster, complete with long moments of "thoughtful pause" in which we hear no internal dialogues or psychological dissection to speak of. As far as I care this is indeed "dead space". Unlike 00, which advanced its plot at a brisk pace throughout its first season, and even into S2, IBO turtles through each episode in this fashion (the paint on the wall again), as if it knows where it's headed but doesn't feel especially happy to get there any time soon.

S2 by its half-way mark already gave us significant advances in plot, character growth and development. I believe the main cause of this concise narrative structure is a direct result of Okada, the writing staff in general, or even the director, knowing exactly where they plan to take things and how to get there. Maybe that will prove untrue for the remaining episodes. But at least S2 thus far hasn't been slow or meandering.

One could argue that, maybe, knowing they had a second season and needed a "stopping point", the staff decided to draw out S1's plot instead of thickening it. This doesn't require more fights, but could have at least given us the wheeling and dealing of S2 behind the scenes. Instead, Nobliss doesn't pop up much, the Old Man snips a couple banzai limbs, and the mysterious Makanai is totally absent until they meet him at last, and then spends a couple episodes babbling over what could have been said much, much sooner had the plot allowed for it. The Gjallarhorn leadership is entirely absent, and if I had to pick one thing only to change, it would be this.

Say what we will about Iok "Idiok" Kujan, but his character engages us into the story, if in a way villains are supposed to "make us angry". Galileo's father held prominence in S1 for the whole loli-marriage arrangement, and yet isn't shown until S2. Most notably, Rustal Elion is nowhere, not even given a name drop, despite being responsible for the Dort fiasco, or at least part of it.

It's nice to get slice-of-life or pleasant, non-life threatening Bebop drifting now and again, but IBO did not pull this off successfully at all, and instead simply bled enough potential for fans to scream for more while we had the chance. We've gotten more, and so far it's been worth it. But many wish it had been worth it sooner, and not sacrificed nearly half its 50~ episodes to do it.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by phillosmaster » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:27 pm

I guess those pacing problems in season 1 never really bothered me. I said as much when I posted in the forum back when it was going on and I still think it's true now. I kind of liked the relaxed pace of the first season, and I appreciate the much more hurried pace of the second season. I am critical of modern anime, but pacing was never my big hang up with the state of modern anime.
Even as we speak, the stealth bombers of the Brotherhood of Dada are swooping silently overhead. They’re using stealth bombs which level whole cities without even the slightest trace of noise or damage. Nothing remains of the world you knew and still you stand in the ruins, acting as if nothing has changed.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Amion » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:02 pm

This is bizarre. I can't seem to view my recent and rather long post, or philosmaster's after it. My page has been refreshed numerous times, and in fact I've been offline for a while with the browser down. But all the posts after mic's are missing, as is page 22 on this thread.

I encountered a similar issue using PMs. Are others encountering weird shenanigans of this type?

Edit: as I said before, bizarre. I couldn't access page 22 until I posted this message. Then it took me to it. :?
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by SNT1 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:26 pm

Amion wrote:It's nice to get slice-of-life or pleasant, non-life threatening Bebop drifting now and again, but IBO did not pull this off successfully at all, and instead simply bled enough potential for fans to scream for more while we had the chance. We've gotten more, and so far it's been worth it. But many wish it had been worth it sooner, and not sacrificed nearly half its 50~ episodes to do it.
Zeonista wrote:
The worst offense of IBO, in my opinion. The fact is that the Teiwaz arc in S1 was so infuriating because it was 2.8 episodes of BS and no MS fights that could have been crammed into one, followed by the Brewers mini arc that was essentially a MotW (okay, 2 weeks) and a plot device for Akihiro to have him do something other than be stiff and have a gym session. That stretch had me so triggered so much that if this wasn't a Gundam show I would have dropped it.

We still have around 8 or 9 episodes to go, and so far it feels like the stakes have been finally raised so high that all feces is going down chinatown, so I don't really worry about filler-tier episodes as much. It's been cooking for a long time now: McGillis' Bael/master plan, Mika/Tekkadan unleashed, Teiwaz civil war, Vidar's revenge, Turbine's revenge on Jasley---There's enough that needs to be tied up with a bunch of fireworks during S2's home stretch.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by phillosmaster » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:07 pm

Well I realize the first season wasn't perfect. I guess it's hard to defend it against those criticisms. That said most of the complaints seem to be targeting the first season. Can I assume you guys think so far season two is on the right track? I know it's not over yet so they could still drop the ball.
Even as we speak, the stealth bombers of the Brotherhood of Dada are swooping silently overhead. They’re using stealth bombs which level whole cities without even the slightest trace of noise or damage. Nothing remains of the world you knew and still you stand in the ruins, acting as if nothing has changed.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Amion » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:18 pm

Oh, there's plenty wrong with modern anime, but that's not something I can say much for, as I've mostly been absent from watching any since around '13. What I've seen in the past 4 years since then hasn't goaded me into picking anything new up, either.

Save IBO, which has mostly been good. And I did enjoy S1, but not as much as S2. I think most everyone still active on this thread, and even those that lurk in the darkness (such as Soma) have been pleased enough to keep watching. (Though the every silent but Modful Shadowcell has professed no intention of watching, which I found mildly surprising. > _ > )

Barring my opinions of others opinions, S2 has generally been good for me, even better than I could have hoped for. I still hope for the rise of the angels, but perhaps that's too much to ask for. I will withhold full judgement until the end of the story, though. I don't want to get my hopes too high, only for IBO to pull a Fafner Exodus and end with an awkward sizzle rather than a masterful explosion.

And yes, I must agree with you, SNT1, that those particular arcs of the story were what murdered IBO. They had good pacing, at least for the beginning of a 50 episode series, until they hit episode 7. And then it slowed to a crawl. There were nice moments, but then we encountered the Empty Space dilemma. The Brewers went on for too long as well, and so everything by that point had might as well have stopped moving at all.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Loop_Stratos » Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:40 am

If I'd sum up my thoughts about IBO, it would be that S1 sucks hard while S2 has been pretty awesome.
I can deal with slow pacing, but not if it's nowhere near engaging.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Kyuzo Aoi » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:54 pm

https://wavemotioncannon.com/2017/02/01 ... as-gundam/

Hmm...did anyone read this article? It was said the IBO was developed in 2009. However, it was temporalily shelved in favor of AGE and Nagai was working with the A Certain Magical Index series at that point. From what I've seen, it could be the fact that the similarities with some tropes in 00 (cold-blooded pilot protagonist, for example), could also be a factor why it was delayed to 2014-15. Sunrise might be wary to rehashing 00 too much so they opted for the 'younger-audience' approach in AGE.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Amion » Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:09 pm

Interesting article, thanks Aoi. :)

But I would point out that Okada has worked on some slow-burn stuff before, so the pacing is, if not exactly her doing, not a problem to her. But overall I think the team as a whole have done well in getting back up from where they tripped. But they should be criticized for not having a more concise image of S1 in their heads after having at least several years for the director to gestate the idea in his head. Or maybe he did, and it just is a case where a good idea in execution didn't end up anywhere near as nice as it sounded in premise. Who can truly say? Not I. *Shrugs*
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by phillosmaster » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:45 pm

Amion wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:18 pm
Oh, there's plenty wrong with modern anime, but that's not something I can say much for, as I've mostly been absent from watching any since around '13. What I've seen in the past 4 years since then hasn't goaded me into picking anything new up, either.
My viewing has been pretty sparse except for Gundam shows since 2013 as well. I did finish up Hunter X Hunter (which I really liked) in 2014 so that counts sort of... The two things I watched and enjoyed in the last 4 years were One Punch Man and JoJo though it's worth noted that JoJo is an adaptation of a manga from a time period I enjoyed and One Punch Man is more a satire of it's genre. so I'm not sure either really count.

IBO is certainly to me the best Gundam in a while even with it's faults. Build Fighters was fine, but was more popcorn viewing than an actual meaty show. I really didn't dig AGE, G Reco, Thunderbolt and Unicorn. They all fell flat for me. IBO was like a breath of fresh air, and maybe part of my enthusiasm can be attributed to the fact that it arrived on the heels of a huge depression in Gundam quality for me.
Even as we speak, the stealth bombers of the Brotherhood of Dada are swooping silently overhead. They’re using stealth bombs which level whole cities without even the slightest trace of noise or damage. Nothing remains of the world you knew and still you stand in the ruins, acting as if nothing has changed.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by SNT1 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:51 am

I'm with most people here... I thought S1's 2nd half was better than the 1st half, basically after Fumitan and the Dort debacle the series finally picked up. And S2 as a whole has been better. The Aston arc was the only bad part of S2. I kinda wish sometimes that S2 had turned into a Gundam Monster Hunter plot. Anyways...

http://gundamguy.blogspot.com/2017/01/1 ... lease.html

Those are Grimgerde's swords. Majority white with blue accents is sometimes color code for hero. McGillis --- the hero? Or an ever crueler trope reversal? Or will he even have his own story ending in a black vs white mecha fight with Vidar?
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Amion » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:28 am

Got to say, the Bael has some sexy leg armor. And the shoulder armor isn't so bad. Too bad the head and... things on its back ruin it for me. Perhaps it will prove more engaging in action. Too bad it must be paired up against the graceful and deadly Vidar... :P
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:47 pm

SNT1 wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:51 am
http://gundamguy.blogspot.com/2017/01/1 ... lease.html

Those are Grimgerde's swords. Majority white with blue accents is sometimes color code for hero. McGillis --- the hero? Or an ever crueler trope reversal? Or will he even have his own story ending in a black vs white mecha fight with Vidar?
Hmm... the handle for the hilt of the sword is a bit different from the Grimgerde's, and the materials made for those swords are extremely rare, so it might be the same swords.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Kuruni » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:10 pm

Man...Hashmal's tail blade is incredible cool.

Look like Jasley underestimate Iok's incompetent XD (I actually chuckled).

Hmm, from that reaction to those Hyakuri, I guess Mika has flashback of when he fought Lafter. When he said "I got you now.", he probably think Lafter would at least put much more fight.

Hush finally get back to piloting. He does get better, but then those (Normal) Man Rodi are back (I'm kind of agree now that the thing look surprising ugly compared to other Rodi frame, including the Landman Rodi...must be that paint job).

...Look like Reginlaze Julia will get upgrade into Reginlaze Julietta soon. Poor Vidar...

I have vibe of Godfather there, look like McMurdo want to get rid of Jasley but doesn't want to get his hand dirty so he play along while Jasley set up himself against Tekkadan. Ironically, look like the reason McMurdo can put up with Tekkadan was because Naze can influence Orga. In other words, yeah, Jasley really bring it himself. His pathetic death is really satisfied to watch.

Fall of Turbines arc finally end, but the revolution arc start immediately without even wrap-up breather episode.

Tekkadan is back to where they start, now they have to work with McGillis since there's no other choice even if they aren't confident with such mission.

We have about 9 episodes left and I guess the revolution movement will end some time before that. I wonder if Kudelia will ever get back to center role again before the end?
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Deathzealot » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:46 pm

Yeah. Jasley dies with a whimper instead of bang like I thought he was going to go. Trying to beg for his life. Poor bastard. Almost feel sorry for the guy. Almost. Was kind of disappointed that it is Hush piloting the Hekija instead of Azee like I thought when I saw the preview. Wonder if it is Azee's unit or Lafter's. Hopefully it is Lafter's Unit which does explain the concern the Tekkadan pilots have for the machine.

Also, found it interesting that Tekkadan really has improved a whole lot since the start of the series heck even the end of the first season. They really tore apart Jasley's men like they were nothing. Only light damages to their mobile suits from the looks of things. McGillis really hit the nail on the head during his appearance in this episode. Jasley's men where a bunch of thugs and mercs, while Tekkadan are now pretty much combat veterans now who are quite capable on their own but add a trio of Gundam Frames and things become quite interesting for Jasley.

On another note, anyone else notice it was one of McGillis's men who did the speech instead of him directly which allows him to maybe far easily take down the rest of the Seven Stars Lords, or something like that. Also. Interesting that we only got Vidar's reaction to the speech not Iok or Rustal. I wonder what they are up to. Since Vidar is in his machine and not in an office or on a ship.

Anyhow. My thoughts on this episode.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by ling-a-bao » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:25 pm

It does make you wonder what the rest of the 7 Stars (Issue, Baklazan, Falk) have been doing all of season 2 other than sitting stoically around a table.

I am not sure if they are just underwritten, or purposefully meant to represent the ineffectiveness of Gjallarhorn.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Wingnut » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:54 pm

Deathzealot wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:46 pm
Was kind of disappointed that it is Hush piloting the Hekija instead of Azee like I thought when I saw the preview. Wonder if it is Azee's unit or Lafter's. Hopefully it is Lafter's Unit which does explain the concern the Tekkadan pilots have for the machine.
Pretty sure that was Lafter's machine they were using. Azee still theoretically has use for her Hekija so Turbines would hang onto it for her. The concern was nice to see. It was like part of Lafter was flying with them.
ling-a-bao wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:25 pm
It does make you wonder what the rest of the 7 Stars (Issue, Baklazan, Falk) have been doing all of season 2 other than sitting stoically around a table.

I am not sure if they are just underwritten, or purposefully meant to represent the ineffectiveness of Gjallarhorn.
Probably the latter given how much the stagnation of Gjallarhorn has been hyped up over so many episodes. I'm really looking forward to it as it could easily mirror a situation in the Universal Century if someone strong enough went and called out the Earth Federation from within on their own stagnation, especially after Zeon finally folded for good.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:13 pm

Yeah, from what we've seen so far, each of the 7 stars has a special job/jurisdiction, I'm guessing the other 3 have different administration work to do, Rustal, Iok and McGillis seem to be the only ones that involve actual combat.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by X_zoro » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:38 pm

I'm I the only one who notice Hush has gotten better as a pilot ? I mean for some of the ZOINKS that some characters have been giving him, he never argued back and try to be respectful, its funny because he was a dick for that one off episode and I hated him, now I'm like I want this guy to do great things before the end, to get that respect he deserves while still love the Tekkedan members they should be a little nicer to the guy, there were like him at one point, back in season 1, so I hope they keep that in mind, anyways I loved this episode and happy that Lafter can rest easy now. :D

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by SNT1 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:39 pm

Alright, Alright, Alri---iiight.

-Eh, this whole episode, seemed like one huge mop-up duty + build up for next episode. Yes, having a battle is better than the alternative (slice of life 'I wonder what Atra cooked today?'), and I like that this episode jumped right into it, but it was a somewhat boring trouncing. With Tekkadan suffering no loses in that debacle, I honestly, honestly doubt Iok's crew would have contributed much.

+Hush, you beautiful, brutal bastard. With him piloting Lafter's machine, I imagine he's now one of the better non-AV pilots Tekkadan has.

+Sense of relief that McGillis' investigations came up with the good stuff this early. I guess Rustal (and Iok) is officially not clean anymore.

+Like I said last week, 'Old Man' has seen all of this crap go down in his lifetime. I totally buy the fact that he knew exactly what Jasley was up to and was one step ahead the entire time.

+I also totally buy the fact that Azee isn't part of this. 'Imagine she's still shook.

+Looks like McGillis is pulling a Rustal and is having other guys do the crazy revolution talk for him. And for better or worse, Tekkadan is off to follow him.

+Rofl don't tell me we're getting an Ein 2.0 with Julietta

Named character death count: 4 in the last 3 episodes

NEXT EPISODE BEST NOT DISAPPOINT!

+McGillis' true intentions!

+Barbatos vs Vidar! (I'll actually be disappointed if either one loses)
(>-.-)>-} >>---> \(x.x)/

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