The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk II

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:09 am

I've been seeing people using McGillis's engagement to Almiria as proof of how evil and corrupt Gjallarhorn is (completely ignoring that she's perfectly happy with it and McGillis isn't the type to treat her poorly) and it got me thinking. We don't have much reason to dislike Gjallarhorn, do we? Other characters don't like how controlling they are, but they have managed to keep the peace for 300 years. McGillis mentions corruption but Coral is the only example we have of this. Nearly ever other Gjallarhorn affiliated character are portrayed as decent enough people. They aren't gassing colonies or killing massive amounts of civilians or anything like that.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Deathzealot » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:58 am

Didn't they fire into a group of protesters? Or something like that.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Amion » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:50 pm

Deathzealot wrote:Didn't they fire into a group of protesters? Or something like that.
I believe so. And just because they're not Evil with a capital E doesn't mean they shouldn't be fought against. The colonists of the American Revolution had basically been given welfare tea, and revolted simply because they didn't get the representation they wanted in Parliament. Sounds to me like Mars wants similar rights, only unlike colonial America, which was prosperous, Mars is anything but, and it's apparently the fault of the Earth powers being greedy.

Now, a good question is: why should we hate McGillis? He so far has come across as a descent upstanding man who wants to remove the corruption his father (possibly) or other high officials allow and support. so far he's even stopped Galileo from somewhat justifiably returning Mika's assault on him. Makes me wander if Kudelia under his control might actually give them all what they want, without the fighting.

And of course, things are not going to be that simple, so he's obviously just waiting to go CCA mode when he gets his chance.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Zeonista » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:42 pm

Whew, that was action enough to make up for all the character development time. Usually with an AU series the complaints are mostly "too much mecha-bashing and not enough character development and motivation! " Eh, fans, never satisfied. :P However, IBO's fights are all relevant to the story and handled with a great deal of ingenuity, technical skill, and less reliance on "tactical stupidity for drama" routines. If it's quality over quantity, IBO has the ratio set right.

There is also a minimum of the mandatory melodramatic message-bleating from the cockpit which is a welcome relief. When Tekkadan suits up, they are going out to kill and protect their folk and client, not give emotional speeches or attempt to preach the gospel in a gunfight. The MS battle are thus handed in a most real way of the pilots on both sides wanting to win ASAP so they can call "mission accomplished" and return to base.

Clash of the Gundams: Barbatos versus Guzion, hammer and tongs, great stuff. 8) Guzion is less subtle about its strength than Barbatos, but they are definitely mecha-brothers. Two war machines named for demons, abandoned in distant places, found and used by people little more than weapons themselves, I sense the story trying to say something here. ;)
Not from Milwaukee: My first thoughts on learning the bandits' name. :D Storms and tea brew up though.
We are Eighties Villains: The master Brewers are just that. Big, strong, fierce, ugly enough to stop a digital clock, and frightfully uncomplicated in their decision-making.
Your sibling is in another army: This old trope never fails, because it always works. On the up side, Masahiro is alive, and obtaining him for Akihiro's sake has just been put into Orga's planning.
Blood everywhere: Chalk one up for technical realism again. The brief moment of mental lockdown over Takaki was good for a reminder that Tekkadan isn't as hard as they try to act. And as a friend pointed out, Tekkadan lacks experience with severe injuries. Either they return as walking wounded or they don't return at all.
Tear down the (death) flag: Yay, Takaki lived, no Tomino death!!
Dirty Aliens Polluting Earth: Antagonist organizations in Gundam anime have a couple of tells that show that they have trouble walking the talk. Can you spot a few in these Earth-bound scenes? ;)
My Father the Boss: This situation never works out well in a Gundam series.
Get them young: Yes, neo-feudal aristocracy is alive and well, and Fareed's visit to his friend's house proves it in diamonds, because spades would be inappropriate. (Another swipe at contemporary news events, maybe, although Prince Genji still has a lot to answer for. :P ) My Midwest Protestant upbringing is once again not amused in this series, but since IBO is a universe where children grow up fast, it is no surprise. One can't fault the little princess for loving the very sight of Fareed; as arranged marriages go, he is a winner.

Destiny_Gundam: You are quite right, the Brewers are nothing special next to the brute squad that eventually makes an appearance in Dragonar. If having a child bride on hold is the worst thing we can say about McGillis when this series is over, he will have gotten off lightly. I do think he has something drastic and world-changing in mind, but all in good time. For Gjallarhorn itself, it is a villainous agency to any Martian in its very existence and function. There is no ideological basis for them being bad guys, they just happen to be the legally appointed enforcers for the ruling factions of Earth who exploit the rest of the Solar System for fun and profit, and see no reason to make any change. McGillis is no Bask Ohm or Jabril, he is the Sheriff of Nottingham.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:22 pm

I'm not particularly against the ratio of time devoted to action-focused scenes vs character-focused scenes that we've gotten, but I'm not convinced that the show is using its screentime wisely. In a full length 50-odd episode series I wouldn't be concerned, but this is only a 25 episode show. We're nearly halfway through, and not a whole lot has happened in terms of plot advancement. Things were moving at a pretty good clip until they left Mars, but since then it seems like everything's taken about twice as long as it should. The fight with the Hammerhead, the alliance with Teiwaz, and the fight with the Brewers have each taken two episodes (assuming that the Brewers get wrapped up next week, anyway, which isn't a given) when it seems like they could have been handled in one. Instead, we get screentime filled by the same character moments repeatedly. Yes, Kudelia feels useless because she doesn't think she's contributing enough. Yes, Atra has the hots for Mika but is too shy to do anything about it. Yes, Orga is doing his damnest to be a good leader, but is well and truly out of his depth. All of this has been established, you don't need to keep rehashing it. It's time to develop the characters past that point.

That said, I will say that I really like GIBO's action. One of the thing that continually annoys me about the majority of Gundam shows (and action shows in general) is that they treat mooks like nonentities. A hero (or villain) shows up, annihilates a half-dozen mooks in ten seconds, and no one thinks anything about it except "wow, that guy was badass".

This is incredibly silly, and if combat was that horrifically lethal on a regular basis, fighting wars would be impossible because the entire army would be dead inside a month. Most combat is relatively inconclusive -- both sides might take some losses (both equipment and personnel) and one side or the other might be forced from the field, but the sort of crushing defeat where one side is completely annihilated is rare to the point where, on the infrequent occasions where it occurs, it changes the course of entire wars. Hell, in fighter planes, the definition of "ace pilot" is making five confirmed kills across your entire combat career, and it's a rare enough feat to automatically qualify you as a badass if you manage to pull it off.

Iron-Blooded Orphans has been very good at portraying things this way. Combat is still dangerous -- people can and do get killed or wounded on a regular basis -- but it's not suicidally lethal to the point where every single fight is "win or die". Hell, the only fight that turned out that way was Mika vs Crank, and that was intentionally set up as a duel between warriors rather than a conventional battle. In Gjallarhorn vs CSG, both sides take losses and both sides retreat rather than face a battle they don't think they can win. In Isarabi vs Gjallarhorn, both sides take damage and the fight is inconclusive. In Tekkadan vs Turbines, the Turbines gain the upper hand in the mecha battle but it's called off before it can reach a conclusion. In Tekkadan vs Brewers, both sides take losses but both retreat as their machines reach the limits of their combat endurance (ie, they both start running out of gas).

People have died and machines have been damaged (and occasionally destroyed) during all of this, but it's never been depicted as a completely one-sided curbstomp, even in the (minority of) cases where there's a clear victor. Combat is depicted as a struggle to stay alive and accomplish your objectives and breathing a sigh of relief when you make it through, rather than a suicide run where you desperately fling yourself at the enemy and hope to do some good before you inevitably explode.

A large part of this is probably because of the fact that basically every combatant is a named character, if only a minor one. The only exceptions to this are the mobile worker pilots (both CGS's and Gjallarhorn's) in the first couple episodes -- but that was also the only really large scale battle we've seen that involved more than a half-dozen or so combatants all told. This means that GIBO has done a really good job of showing combat from a soldier's eye view. Not as an ace pilot in a top-tier machine surveying a battlefield like a god among mortals, but as a grunt focusing on the fight going on in front of him because he has neither the time nor the inclination to look farther ahead than surviving the next skirmish without letting his friends and allies down.

Gundam hasn't shown the idea of fighting in a war this well since 08th MS Team.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Kuruni » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:05 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:I've been seeing people using McGillis's engagement to Almiria as proof of how evil and corrupt Gjallarhorn is (completely ignoring that she's perfectly happy with it and McGillis isn't the type to treat her poorly)
Come on, we should know people can be overreact when a cute loli is in romantic relationship regardless of how it play out. Even, no, especially if the girl is happy with it.
Destiny_Gundam wrote:[...]and it got me thinking. We don't have much reason to dislike Gjallarhorn, do we? Other characters don't like how controlling they are, but they have managed to keep the peace for 300 years. McGillis mentions corruption but Coral is the only example we have of this. Nearly ever other Gjallarhorn affiliated character are portrayed as decent enough people. They aren't gassing colonies or killing massive amounts of civilians or anything like that.
And isn't McGillis mentioned something about reformation movement? And he seem to think how Kudelia can play part of that. Maybe it's too early to tell, but I start to see him as what happen if Char can focus on reconstruction of Zeon instead of personal grudge. It's like they mix Char and Garma together into single mold, then creat McGillis and Gaelio out of it (though all of Char's element is in Macky).

Yes. My current impression place Gjallarhorn closer to typical Earth Federation than Titans. Less of brutality and more of rufusal to change, it look so bad because Tekkadan come from backwater area that need change for better.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Zeonista » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:57 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby: Gundam being what it is, I am certain that by the end of the series Mikazuki & Lafter will be tearing through entire squadrons without breaking a sweat. However, they will have sweated some getting there, and that's good. Mika is a badass ace pilot, but there are reasons for it in story beyond "because Gundam pilot".
1. He has three "whiskers", so he really is three times faster in response/control time.
2. We see him working at it, training out of combat and staying on his toes in a fight instead of trying to steal the Talk no Jutsu from Naruto. (This also goes for Akihiro, who is 100% better than he was 3 episodes ago.)
3. He is an ace pilot, no more & no less. Orga can handle the planning, Biscuit can handle finding the gear, Mika will handle the Gundam-bashing.

That being said, I will agree that the fights are true-to-life in the sense that units with limited resources are a lot less willing to risk it all than large forces with lots of cannon fodder. All the factions work hard at winning on and off the battlefield since even the calculated risks are high, as they should be for the most part. At the same time, the knowledge that there is little margin for error is good for us as the audience because it keeps the excitement of action high. The fights matter in terms of consequences to the combatants and audience alike, so in consequence we have received little ho-hum super robot theatrics.

Kuruni: As I have mentioned above, McGillis is the Sheriff of Nottingham in terms of villainy. However, he is a Sheriff who knows his ultimate loyalty is sworn to Prince John the Jerk. Since IBO is very much a shades of grey story in proper Gundam fashion, we may presume that McGillis knows his superiors and the aristocrats they report to (like Father Dearest) don't really understand what is happening on and around Mars. Since we are given to understand he is a deeper and more perceptive person than his fellow Gjallarhorn members shown thus far, McGillis comes off as a fellow who will do his duty, but will also consider his duty to end the strife without a Tomino Ending.

So far McGillis is an antagonist, because he stands athwart to Tekkadan completing their commission and delivering Kudelia-hime to her meeting. He is mot much of a villain since he is not doing any mustache-twirling involving Kudelia, and may intend to use her towards a program of reform himself. Whether or not his goals coincide with Kudelia's goals is something that needs to get answered before this series ends. Given his "pet the dog" moment with Almiria the loli-princess though, he seems like a decent person who hasn't sworn away his heart like Char Aznable or been corrupted by inner malice like Rau Le Crueset.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:15 am

Zeonista wrote:Gundam being what it is, I am certain that by the end of the series Mikazuki & Lafter will be tearing through entire squadrons without breaking a sweat.
While I won't discount the possibility entirely, that would be a shift on par with the difference between the first and second season of Gundam 00 -- not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly a major change in tone. And frankly, I would be rather disappointed if it does come to that point. GIBO's focus on small-unit tactics against competent enemies without a hugely enormous technology gap between combatants is its greatest strength, and if they move away from than in favor of more typical "supremely skilled pilots in monstrously powerful mecha" then they'll be losing much for little gain.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by balofo » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:44 am

The worst part is that there won't be any payoff at the end for this slow burn narrative...

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Ryujin » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:30 am

Oho, Barbatos' mace returns this episode with crushing results. The Hammerhead also lives up to its name.

Also, Ahab reactors can generate gravity. That clears up some things.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by JDogindy » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:17 pm

I'm sorry, but I find this series to be absolute trash.

It's easily one of my least favorite Gundam installments ever, and I'm not saying to be obnoxious or as a desperate plea for attention, which I'm not, but I can't really support the characters or anything, and I haven't exactly been enjoying the battles.

Granted, my expectations were really low because Mari Okada was working on this, and I hated M3: The Dark Metal so much (it's not my least-favorite mecha ever; that dishonor goes to Buddy Complex, but it's up there).

However, I just feel like a leper right now because I don't like this show, but I consider Reconguista in G, the show most people enjoy bashing, to be one of my personal favorites in Gundam history.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Deathzealot » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:22 pm

Woah. Interesting. The Mobile Workers return here as boarding craft once more. We also get to see some infantry combat which is quite rare in Gundam along with some sweet looking Infantry gear which I wonder where Tekkadan got it. The Teiwez ship perhaps? Anyways I love this episode for it really shows how experienced the Turbine pilots are along with how good Mika has gotten. I cannot wait till the next episode for I think we are about to see Akihiro go rage on the Gusion.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Kuruni » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:27 pm

First of all...

Wahhh...Atra is so adorable in this episode!!! :D :D

The battle is pretty tense. Gusion's hammer swing look pretty epic, if they slow down a bit it would fit perfectly in super robot anime. :lol:
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Man...it's too bad that Masahiro is already broken and only the very critical moment of Akihito's life can make him think straight again. I guess some named character has to be sacrificed so the loss would be substantial, and he does that role well despite being around for only two episodes.
The last sentence in Naze's next episode speech make me worry. Unlike previous previews, this one is clearly connect to the plot.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Dark Duel » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:36 pm

@Kuruni: What'd ya mean, in this episode? Atra-chan is always adorable.

Well, that ending was...unexpected. And yet, perfectly in keeping with the tone of the show so far, so I really can't complain.
Another pretty damn good episode, especially with the Isaribi and Hammerhead getting in on the action, but again it ends before tying up all the loose ends, so this arc drags into another episode.

On the one hand, I have consistently enjoyed every single episode so far, which is more than can be said for G-Reco, which I dropped at around this point.
On the other, the more the show goes on, the more concerned I am for how it's going to end, because AFAIK this show is only slated for 25 episodes, and we are now halfway through that number, just about. But the pacing is more consistent with a series twice that length. So I am very concerned that IF this series is going to cap out at 25 episodes, that it's going to end up rushing through the second half, which would suck.
Now, in the event that it does get another 25, that's another story. But right now, I'm still worried.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Xenosynth » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:11 pm

It's very strange... but honestly I think IBO is already my favorite Gundam series. I am enjoying the subtle character plots being handled consistently (Mika learning to read/write, etc), that it doesn't feel overly cynical, yet it also doesn't pull punches.

G-Reco I wanted to love but I feel almost like the opposite. While I love G-Reco's art and character designs, the story, dialogue, and actual characterization fell for me. Whereas this series I was not a fan of the character designs (though the MS work is phenomenal IMO), but I care so much more for the characters and story that is going on in this. I dunno.

It is interesting seeing the reactions on here vs my other groups overall. It does seem like a very love it or hate it thing going on but at least in most my groups I don't feel alone since my discord, twitter, and other groups all seem to really enjoy it.

But I also learned that Gundam fans will always be polarized on everything and that liking a thing everyone else hates, or hating a thing that everyone else likes, is going to be common, and should be expected. There shouldn't be fights over it nor anyone acting superior with their opinion, or trying to make others feel bad, because in the end it is subjective (Also learning this from friends in other groups helped me a ton with regards to stress management, since uh, I cannot say that arguing with on here on and off was the most pleasant experience.) It's probably the thing that has made me feel best about it tbh. It's also why I typically avoid the anime threads on here now (though I broke that rule today) since really, it's going to be the usual people who like it and the usual people who dislike it continuing either one or the other. There aren't really a lot of shifts or a ton of things to be gained overall, and debating would be rather fruitless! So I usually just save the actual anime discussion with friends now and probably will just stick with mecha/technology. Still, it had been a long time since I checked in on here, and... well, checking in, it was about what I expected haha. The people I expected who would want more action disliking it, the people who I expected to like it given what I know of them liking it, etc.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Kuruni » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:13 pm

Dark Duel wrote:@Kuruni: What'd ya mean, in this episode? Atra-chan is always adorable.
She's alway aorable, but some how she shine even brighter than usual in this one. :mrgreen:

FYI, Japanese Wikipedia cite volume 12/2015 of Gundam Ace that both her and Kudelia are the show's heroines :mrgreen: . So lets hop for harem end for Mika :mrgreen: .
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by balofo » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:25 pm

Action every episode isn't an issue for me. Look at Geass which had awesome memorable fight scenes every 3 episodes or so.

IBO has a great tech background but the execution is awful. MS are in god mode unless Barbatos maces them, ships are completely invincible. One would expect someone to develop ammo against nanolaminate armor in the series by now, we know napalm work but it was used only once.

The characters are completely bland and keep repeating the same BS all the time. Mika is a cardboard cut-out protagonist like Setsuna. Chocolate Man is irrelevant and he was supposed to be rival.

QUALITY is massive too, combat choreography is weak.

It took 11 eps to mention the Seven Stars and show Earth. Calamity War will likely never be touched upon.

The mech design is awesome and the OST is ok though.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by monster » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:39 pm

balofo wrote:MS are in god mode unless Barbatos maces them, ships are completely invincible.
I don't understand. Where is the "god mode" and invincibility? And even if true, how is that any different from other Gundam shows?

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by Xenosynth » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:40 pm

I think I have to completely disagree on the Mika Setsuna comparison haha. But to each their own! Most people I have talked to seem to believe that he has a lot more characterization and that he can actually interact with people rather well. Clearly you think otherwise, but I have also learned that me and you and others all see media rather differently.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk

Post by balofo » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:59 pm

monster wrote:I don't understand. Where is the "god mode" and invincibility? And even if true, how is that any different from other Gundam shows?
Every kill so far but the point blank range smoothbore gun shot was a mace/sword to the cockpit(Gusion Hammer got one too).

Even grunts are invincible to ranged weapons until the script calls to Mika kill them with a mace/sword to the cockpit. There will never be any tension.

And ships can tank point blank 400 mm shots with only paint scratching off.

Not to mention the Man Rodi's having heavy armor and still dying to a simple mace to cockpit.

Mace to the cockpit is the new Build Knuckle.

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