The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk II

[Dustman]

It's strange. I somewhat have an opposite feeling about IBO. I've been rewatching it myself to get worked up for the second season and I feel a bit better about it. I don't have different opinions about the series on an intellectual level but I am at least warming to it emotionally. It's been awfully generic and hasn't had much about it to be enamored with, but I've reconciled that its point has mostly been to reestablish the brand overseas by following recent demographic trends.

That's not to say that it's destined to succeed, of course. But even if the second season can't elevate it, I can deal with them playing it safe this time. I've been keeping myself occupied as it airs and I will always have the next episode of The Origin to look forward to. There will always be another Gundam series. I'm at a point in my life where I'm actually sort of alright with some of them being lackluster :p

As for the Toonami promo, I think it's nothing more than a commercial. It has no real meaning other than DeMarco and the crew being ecstatic about having a real Gundam show on their schedule after 12 years. There's some genuine love on their part so it's all about celebrating a reunion than an attempt at emphasizing and stretching their similarities. And I wouldn't worry about it being misleading, either. It's not as if the Peter Cullen promo for Wing was all that accurate to begin with.

[BrentD15]

I, for one, welcome the return of our Iron-Blooded Overlords.

[LightningCount]

Didn't mean to sound like I was writing obituaries for IBO. Despite the too-broad line about "the galaxy is troubled," I thought the Toonami promo for Wing was fairly accurate in terms of the pacing of the actual show. From what I've heard, I'm not sure there will be the same amount of slam-bang action to IBO that initially got Wing noticed.

Regardless, I watched the first episode of IBO again on Toonami. It will be interesting to see how it performs in the long-term. Everything that hits Toonami gets some initial buzz. I wonder how the recently replaced Dimension W performed by comparison, for example. It was smart but cruel marketing to put IBO in DBZ Kai's slot, and move DBZ Kai a half hour earlier. This time slot move was not extensively advertised, and DBZ Kai is usually the top performer for Toonami, I think, so you're guaranteed the most eyeballs. But whether or not there can be crossover appeal, especially with the pacing of the first episode of IBO, who knows. I was actually left wondering if certain fans would be angry about missing DBZ Kai.

And more broadly, I was wondering if the "giant robot" genre has the same potential for appeal/growth as it did almost two decades ago, especially when it's played straight, as Gundam usually tends to do.

Anyway, the dub is very well cast. JYB is a fascinating choice for Orga that works better than I thought it would. It makes the character sound more his age, since I assume Orga is supposed to be a teen. In Japanese, he sounds like he's in his 20s, at least, which matches his physical appearance. I would have expected someone like Crispin Freeman for the English VA. But this is a creative interpretation/localization of the voice.

Something I wonder about the dub is some of the pronunciations, though. For Mikazuki: Me-ka-zoo-key is largely (totally?) used rather than "Mi-kaz-key." It's not the worst thing, but I would have thought a modern dub would have kept it more Japanese-sounding (i.e. Sasuke from Naruto is "sas-kay" rather than "sa-soo-kay.") Also, the mobile suit Graze is pronounced "Grayz" rather than "Gra-zay"--I do not know which is more correct. Anyone know? I thought I heard the latter in the Japanese version, but it's been a while.

On scene setting headings/subtitles: It struck me that the font, font size, placement of the words, and their duration in Episode 1 seemed sort of off. They seemed harder to quickly absorb than in, say, Gundam 00; and there were a couple of them in rapid succession, it felt like, which made it all the more awkward.

My thoughts on Episode 1 haven't changed much since I first saw it back when it aired. It's all right, but it doesn't really sell me on anything. It switches scenes a lot, but very few of the threads stand out compared to other Gundam first episodes that used this technique. The Mobile Workers are neat, but maybe overstay their welcome; and a lot of the ideas presented as being central, like an upper-class, peace-promoting love interest, come off a bit stale at this point when played so close to the book. I'm more interested in seeing the episodes after 3, where I left off. But right now, out of the whole cast, the characters I am interested in the most are probably Gaelio and McGillis, and the little-seen Gjallarhorn angle of the plot. I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

A few more general "re-impressions," if you will: The characters all sort of look like "background characters" for an anime. Aside from Akihiro rising a bit above the fray, Orga is the one who probably sticks out most--almost too much--but even his design only reaches the level of a secondary Zoids character for me. Maybe the character design needs to grow on me, but I just don't find it very appealing to look at so far.

The mechanical design is fine right now, though not remarkable. For now, the Barbatos' design kind of lives or dies based on that mace.

And despite the grimy/gritty tone of the art direction...I can't help but feel there is a certain lifelessness and sterility to the backgrounds. I can't put my finger on it, but I don't get that "lived-in" feel from them.

[Dustman]

Despite the too-broad line about "the galaxy is troubled," I thought the Toonami promo for Wing was fairly accurate in terms of the pacing of the actual show.

I'm sorry, I don't think I'm wrong about this. While I do think that the promo captures the bombast of the Ikeda-directed first half fairly well, I feel like it emphasized that element of sporadic action over the show's greater focus on labyrinthine conspiracies and its penchant for monologues. I think it sold the product well but it also understood that it should only allude to the content's sophistry, which could be construed as uninteresting to its target demographic. I know I'm being fairly harsh with that judgement but it's because I feel that the promo reflects and encapsulates my childhood memories of Wing and the feelings that they invoke in me, far better than the actual show had done once I returned to it as an adult.

[BrentD15]

Okay, I'm gonna come out and say this:
I don't think Wing is the high point of the franchise anymore.

And now that I think about it, why are people comparing this series to Wing so dang much? It's not like the two shows have the same director(s) or production teams.

[Wellman]

Dub was ok, although it does seem like the voice actor for Mikazuki displayed too much emotion in his voice to me. But we will see.

[LightningCount]

Despite the too-broad line about "the galaxy is troubled," I thought the Toonami promo for Wing was fairly accurate in terms of the pacing of the actual show.

I'm sorry, I don't think I'm wrong about this. While I do think that the promo captures the bombast of the Ikeda-directed first half fairly well, I feel like it emphasized that element of sporadic action over the show's greater focus on labyrinthine conspiracies and its penchant for monologues. I think it sold the product well but it also understood that it should only allude to the content's sophistry, which could be construed as uninteresting to its target demographic. I know I'm being fairly harsh with that judgement but it's because I feel that the promo reflects and encapsulates my childhood memories of Wing and the feelings that they invoke in me, far better than the actual show had done once I returned to it as an adult.

You're entitled to this opinion, and I see your points. I just don't agree on some of the details. It's true that Gundam Wing is not an "all action" show. There doesn't exist such a Gundam TV series, really. However, in terms of a Gundam TV series that has a copious amount and variety of action, I do not think there is a Gundam TV series that has quite the same level overall as Wing, making it fair game for this type of advertising. Consider the first three episodes of Gundam Wing: #1 contains a prologue with a shuttle being shot down and grunt mobile suits clashing inside of a colony; a gun-equipped shuttle with a team of mobile suits chasing a transforming Gundam into the atmosphere; a Gundam pilot knocking out EMTs in hand-to-hand and stealing an ambulance after failing to blow up his spacesuit; and five Gundams attacking OZ/Alliance groups in a number of locations in different ways--MS factory, spaceport, desert search party, and flotilla with jets. #2 has a fencing duel in which a foil goes halfway through a mask; a Gundam pilot jumping with a horse and then hacking both school and military records; Heero hitching a ride on the underside of a truck; an underwater mobile suit battle that leads to an Alliance flotilla adding its torpedoes to the battle and getting its bridge sliced in half and its chopper blown up by a Buster Shield; Heero raiding a submarine and taking its torpedoes; Heero and Duo starting a small arms firefight that ends with Heero half-riding torpedoes into the Deathscythe and Wing Gundams. #3 has Wufei attacking the Indus supply base; Heero and Duo breaking out of an Alliance hospital by blowing a wall out and parachuting from a perilous height; and Heavyarms getting in a firefight with a unit that includes tanks, fighters, and a blimp, before confronting an OZ unit and the interfering Quatre and the Maganacs. (And by the time we get to eight episodes, it feels like a whole season of material has gone by in terms of action, political moves, and plot twists.)

Now, as you said, the Toonami trailer alluded to the philosophical/political elements of the show, having such lines as "I'm sure God would understand the steps we're taking."; "Isn't it about time you people start realizing, the ones causing the most threat are none other than yourselves?"; "All of you are very mistaken, and the Gundams will soon come to rectify your mistakes"; and "We shouldn't be fighting at all!" And indeed, Gundam Wing has these theater-like philosophical/political explorations as a very strong element to its show. (That’s part of its appeal to me, actually, in that it’s one of the most quotable Gundam entries, even with all its over-the-top bombast, in terms of how it genuinely explores humanity in ways that are, at the least, thought-provoking*.) But rarely is an episode not coupled with some sort of wild action moment or two; even when things slow down later on, you've got stuff like Heero jumping out of a plane and rolling onto a ship with a machine gun.)

Gundam IBO's trailer, by comparison, included clips from a smaller slice of its pie--essentially its first episode, which perhaps has the most concentrated action in the early going I've heard--and when we compare the above first three episodes of Wing to what occurs in the first three episodes of Iron-Blooded Orphans, it's an unfair comparison. As I understand it, IBO swiftly evolves into a Eureka Seven-like road trip drama of interpersonal relationships, which isn't the impression the Toonami trailer gives. Whereas in the Toonami trailer for Wing it at least alludes to its quieter elements while making an honest statement about the intensity and propensity of the action in the series being one of its focuses. (I mean, for goodness sake, it has a Gundam yank a cannon-equipped train off of its tracks and a guy transition from a motorcycle to a tightrope during a car chase. These spectacles don't occur in many shows, Gundam or otherwise, so telling people they're in for a lot of action and spectacle is right on target, even if it's not the entire picture.) But IBO didn’t even mention the road trip with Kudelia concept that I believe is central to the story, and instead tried to follow the narration story beats, wording, and music of the older Wing trailer. So, while in the end it is harmless, and a good marketing strategy to catch viewers across generations, I don't buy that it was as representative of the product itself as the Wing trailer was. (Though, one could make the argument that the Wing trailer was longer.)

*As an aside, an example of what I’m speaking of regarding the potentially loaded statement of "thought-provoking", which I think you somewhat unfairly seemed to dismiss as “sophistry,” from Episode 25:

“Quatre, it doesn't matter how it happened, but the colonies have teamed up with OZ. And we have to keep in mind that it does mark the end of a war. At the same time it means that our missions have come to an end. From our point of view it's disappointing that the colonies we've been fighting for have changed their perspectives. But that's what happens in wars. We've got no choice but to accept it. The only question left is what happens to the remaining soldiers? What happens within our hearts? With us Gundam pilots, we were completely trained to be soldiers before
we even realized it. When you put everything into a battle you start to think you can change the times all by yourself, don't you? But Quatre, you're not the only one who feels that way. We all do. But the kinder you are, the bigger the toll it takes on you. We have to fight with ourselves, in our hearts, and we have to do it harshly in order to come to the right conclusions. Even if it means our battles to date are meaningless. We have to acknowledge the facts. The five of us have become redundant soldiers, Quatre. So now, let's accept it. Turn back into the nice guy I once knew. I just hope that something triggers your mind that calms you down. Something...”

But I digress. We've both said our piece in this argument, and nothing further will be gleaned. Either way, it's no big deal in the end. I just wanted to articulate my stance.

And to your view, I have not seen all of IBO yet, so I only know what I've heard and seen. (Moreover, I'm not sure that the people at Toonami had seen more than a few episodes when this promo was made.) But I'm just saying Gundam Wing really wasn't the strong parallel I got from it compared to Toonami's trailer, which was, admittedly, probably just an overzealous reaction to having Gundam back and feeling like they've returned the lineup to its roots--or "full strength," as the producers said in a recent statement prior to the premiere.

Okay, I'm gonna come out and say this:
I don't think Wing is the high point of the franchise anymore.
And now that I think about it, why are people comparing this series to Wing so dang much? It's not like the two shows have the same director(s) or production teams.

I’m not offended by that. I think everyone is going to have their own experience with Gundam, and their own expectations. For me personally, "high point" or not, I’ve felt that for all of its shortcomings, Gundam Wing has been the most “complete” Gundam series, even if it doesn’t necessarily have the strongest individual elements within that whole. But every Gundam has its own points of interest.

But to answer your question, the only reason Wing has come up is because Toonami chose to parallel Wing and IBO in their trailer, and I felt that was sort of awkward (even if a good “marketing” idea in the short run). Gundam 0079 or Gundam SEED didn’t really parrot Wing’s trailer when they were on Toonami, for instance. Now, you could vaguely say that Gjallarhorn has an OZ (and/or OZ Prize)-like vibe, Kudelia has shades of Relena, and Mikazuki has the distant child soldier element to him that Heero had, but I think these things are irrelevant because the presentation, pacing, and the way these elements are used are likely going to be different than Wing as the series goes on. So, I’d have preferred if the nostalgia card was pushed aside to let IBO do what it will do on its own merits.

Dub was ok, although it does seem like the voice actor for Mikazuki displayed too much emotion in his voice to me. But we will see.

You might be right. But maybe it’ll work out.

Anyway, I've said way more than was necessary here about a trailer. I'll want to see how IBO goes as a show.

[Dustman]

Uhhhh... I think you're really getting bogged down in minutiae and this isn't the direction I was interested in taking. I'm going to bring this discussion back into proportion by clarifying that I am not arguing about the accuracy of narration but instead my perception of a dichotomy between expectations and reality that the Wing promo evokes, in relation to the objective properties of the actual series.

Granted, this assertion itself is actually subjective but the reason I don't think I'm wrong about this is because the promo feels to me like a window into the image by which many of my brothers and sisters from the first "Toonami Generation" have continued to internalize the series. On my side of that, I had many years between SD Gundam Force and the SEED remaster where I spontaneously drifted away from Gundam and have lost that emotional connection. The promo evokes the Wing that I struggle to keep touch with while the TV series is both more and far less than what that image represents.

It is a paradoxical feeling that I can love Wing for the familiarity of its sporadic bombast - encapsulated by the Peter Cullen promo - while finding the substance of the actual show to be utterly tedious and superficial. This is where I come off saying that I find the original promo to be "inaccurate" because from my perspective at least, there exist two parallel images of Wing that are difficult for me to reconcile. This is why I don't hold such reverence for Wing nor for the promo and sense no exploitation in the IBO version paying homage and fanservice. It's no different than the prior celebration of Toonami's resurrection, its inclusion for long term followers or the prioritization of new a new generation to its programming.

By this acknowledgement that their first priority is to actually cultivate new fans, I'm simply trying to say that any perception of this campaign as attempting to exploit and subsist on the emotions of older followers, by appropriating similarities to Wing, is personal exaggeration. That marketable inclusion does exist but an homage of this nature is intended as the repetition of a cycle and the only substantive message to be drawn from that is the symbology of those two shows as gateway introductions for different generations. To use an oft repeated meme, "It's like poetry; it rhymes!"

[Amion]

What about MSG, War in the Pocket, G Gundam, and 08th MS Team's promos? They were in similar style to Wing, from what I recall. If anything the Toonami team is just doing what they did with other Gundam shows. If the Wing promo was received well enough, I'm sure they simply decided to use a formula that met with success rather than a chancy alternative. Saying they made this IBO promo exclusively parallel to Wing feels hasty to me.

[Dustman]

No, it's a pretty deliberate homage. Irrefutably. All you need is to watch the two back to back to see the callbacks. It was done this way because Williams Street knows that part of Wing's success and the acquisition of further programming is tied to the initial advertising. While there aren't likely to be that many public statistics to support that, fans have frequently offered testimony toward its effectiveness and the marketing team at Williams Street is not so daft as to overlook their own mythology.

My point is that I don't find it cynical, nor do I feel that it is misleading. It's as you've described, the repetition of a formula by referencing something that long term followers remember quite well. While there may be a greater dialogue somewhere about this as a general marketing trend, this instance is intimate enough that it counts more as the celebration of a reunion and the official start of Gundam's return to America after its decline in the Syfy era and subsequent hibernation.

[LightningCount]

I've written enough in my previous post on the minutiae. But as noted, Amion, there is a bit of a difference between how SEED, 08th Team, etc's promos ran, and how Wing and IBO ran. To finish, since it was brought back up, Dustman, I think you're right that one's subjective experience with Wing affects one's reaction to the promo. I suppose it was supposed to be the same sort of effort as redoing the "Criminal Threats" bump, but this format was a little more specific, and there are different levels of gut reactions one is going to have subjectively for an ad that is trying to hit multiple targets using such specificity.

I go back to the beginning of the Clyde 49/Moltar era of Toonami, but I have watched Wing in part or as a whole many times since TOM-1's Toonami; longitudinally, your statement of the show being "more and far less" than the promo is a fair enough statement. The promo is a 70/30 mix of action and otherwise in what is probably more 50/50 in practice; yet subjectively, and with the objective analysis given previously, it was capturing the spirit and main vehicle of the show, which are different than most Gundam series to say the least. As I understand it, IBO is going to be a 30/70 in terms of action and otherwise, and the promo gives the impression of it being at least 60/40. But again, minutiae, I suppose... I understand that this is about your first reaction of personal perception as much as mine. And Toonami had every right to go this route. I just have very mixed feelings about the effectiveness of it on me personally in trying to draw parallels to a different time and show, and there are objective reasons (or minutiae) for that which I've pointed out. In conclusion, whether showing harmless love for Gundam being on Toonami or pushing nostalgia buttons, or both, I am most concerned they have inadvertently written a check they can't cash by setting expectations into such specific directions rather than innovating toward what is there. (I assume your Dustman name is a reference to the Dr. Cossack Robot Master; and if so, as a fellow Mega Man fan, I wonder if this advertising technique would be like, for better or for worse, advertising Mighty No.9 with the Dr. Wily Stage 1 music from Mega Man 2.)

As an aside, though, I think your concerns about a given series' superficiality are overstated if we're talking about going beyond the subjective. Even when a given idea is not practical, that doesn't make it superficial. If that were the case, every other "deep" form of celebrated literature or film could be cast as superficial. You could easily make a compelling, objectively framed argument to that. They're all artificial constructs whose ideas could be invalidated or contradicted by one reality or another. Yet so long as it challenges and develops any facet of the emotions or intellect in the plot's actors, and by extension the viewers, there's no need to be so cynical about it. In terms of challenging perceptions of reality about one's self and the world, the excerpt I provided was one example of that, and some of the best Gundam series for me are the ones that find a number of moments to vividly reach out at the viewer in concert with its plot. Honestly, in the Gundam universe at large, in the traditional sense, the prominent idea of the "Newtype" could be considered extremely "superficial" and presumptuous in a series about war and peace. Still, despite the way it can sometimes come off as an annoying plot-device crutch that provides deus ex machina solutions, it has at times produced some interesting dialogues about human evolution, society, and interpersonal relationships. I should perhaps rephrase that the series which explore their ideas the most, and in the most creative/thought-provoking ways, whether fully practical or not, are usually the ones I respect the most. What I find to be the most "superficial" is when a series doesn't adequately explore its core ideas after introducing them.

The deed is done in terms of Toonami, and I've now said way more than I wanted to about this small, small matter. I have a tendency to be passionate and verbose in these discussions, but I do not mean any harm. I just want to make sure all sides are well represented. Regardless of everything above, I want to see where IBO goes at a series. I think I might wait to see a number of episodes I haven't seen before making any more comments about it.

[BrentD15]

I have to agree with Dustman with this one.

[Dustman]

(I assume your Dustman name is a reference to the Dr. Cossack Robot Master; and if so, as a fellow Mega Man fan, I wonder if this advertising technique would be like, for better or for worse, advertising Mighty No.9 with the Dr. Wily Stage 1 music from Mega Man 2.)

Yes! Mega Man 4 is my favorite game in the classic series. I couldn't think of a username that was comfortably anonymous so I decided on the mental image of Dustman self-consciously typing detailed, moderately intelligent forum posts on the internet. It's not as inspired as what I had hoped to conjure from myself but one of the fringe benefits is that a username with this kind of identity coding is likely to get those posts taken more seriously. That said, Mighty No.9 with plagiarized Rockman music? Well~ now that you mention it, I'm sure that at least makes for better prom music that what Deep Silver came up with!

To the main topic at hand, I'd first like to say unprovoked that if it at all seemed like it, I really haven't meant to come off as though I've been ignoring anything you've said. I really do respect and empathize with your view on this particular matter. It's just that a deluge of analysis (the "minutiae" that I've spoken of) is, in this instance specifically, both all-consuming for the dedicated topic header and far beyond points that I initially sought sought to raise.

I profess openly that I was spurred almost entirely by the notion of exploitation. My real intent is to confer that this matter of reception is based on how deeply an image has been internalized and maintained over the years. This is where I come in with my brief anecdote about my own personal history. Though I mentioned complex emotions about Wing as a singularity, it's not my intention to put anything up for debate in the way of its qualities. Rather, the point that I've likely obfuscated, is that our generation has internalized Wing in a way that has grown with some (or maybe even been "forced" to keep up) while others have simply outgrown it. As you've said, gut reactions are based in the extent to which that has taken root so, positive and negative alike, our perceptions are driven by a private relationship.

Ultimately though, my conclusion is that our emotions about the appropriateness of this homage and the hard, textual non-symbiosis of Wing and IBO are irrelevant. The actual goal is of course to symbolically hearken back to the previous cycle as they resurrect the franchise for a new generation. It's meant to include us, but it's also not for us, if that makes sense. And my point about the original promo being primarily the work of marketing is to say that they sold a product without alluding to its dense theatrics, which I find similar enough to how the new promo emphasizes the harder tone of the first three episodes over the full season's slice of life elements.

Essentially, if there is a greater point I wish to make, it's that we'd do best not to be so worried about backward compatibility with Wing. Instead, we should observe the success of IBO and its marketing on its own terms and whether or not it will be enough that Cartoon Network will have a seat at the meetings for the next Gundam series. Given Toonami's relationship with the franchise, some of their recent business ventures and Bandai/Sunrise's interest in expanding the brand overseas, this would appear to be the next logical step toward focus testing an international success.

[doghunter1]

Would Gjallarhorn mobile worker and mobile suit pilots need pilot simulators like in other Gundam timelines given the disdain directed at Alaya-Vijnana usage?

[Kuruni]

Would Gjallarhorn mobile worker and mobile suit pilots need pilot simulators like in other Gundam timelines given the disdain directed at Alaya-Vijnana usage?

Need? No, I think you can learn about piloting by reading manual. But it make the training easier and surely include during their pilot course.

[doghunter1]

Would Gjallarhorn mobile worker and mobile suit pilots need pilot simulators like in other Gundam timelines given the disdain directed at Alaya-Vijnana usage?

Need? No, I think you can learn about piloting by reading manual. But it make the training easier and surely include during their pilot course.

If that be the case, should we have Orga acquiring simulators for CGS/Tekkadan to train in, because shouldn't he learn too much Alaya-Vijnana usage be bad, as Mikazuki and his bad arm attests to?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

We see the Tekkadan pilots training against the Turbine pilots from their cockpits without needing separate simulation equipment.

[E08]

Would Gjallarhorn mobile worker and mobile suit pilots need pilot simulators like in other Gundam timelines given the disdain directed at Alaya-Vijnana usage?

Need? No, I think you can learn about piloting by reading manual. But it make the training easier and surely include during their pilot course.

If that be the case, should we have Orga acquiring simulators for CGS/Tekkadan to train in, because shouldn't he learn too much Alaya-Vijnana usage be bad, as Mikazuki and his bad arm attests to?

Mikazuki's problem is not due to frequent usage of the AV system, but because he seeks a higher level of linkage with the AV system/Barbatos. So far it is not shown if long term usage of AV system at the initial low level has any problem.

[Deacon Blues]

Interesting new silhouettes of the suits from the upcoming season...

http://i.imgur.com/hz8u1QS.jpg

[Amion]

Hmm, hard to say, but the middle one could be a Valkyrie frame, mayhaps? I don't really know what to make of the first one on the left, save that it makes me think Graze variant. Not sure though, I somehow doubt the old Graze will be around forever, but I could be wrong.

As to the rightmost one, I don't like it that much from the silhouette alone. It's feet hopefully have some useful mechanism to make up for looking to frail and over-complicated.