The Later Universal Century and afterwards

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The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:26 am

From what I understand, the stuff that takes places in the 0100s conflicts a great deal with Unicorn's ending. And while I do find stuff like the Cosmo Babylonia and the Jupiter Empire fascinating, my head canon would probably consider that part of Gundam history to be an alternate, yet similar, timeline like the differences between Classic Mega Man and Mega Man Battle Network. What's everyone else's thoughts on the matter?

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by ShadowCell » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:00 am

uh

what conflicts with Unicorn now?

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:06 am

ShadowCell wrote:uh

what conflicts with Unicorn now?
F91, Victory, and that Crossbone manga. Not counting that mediocre sounding live action movie. http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Universal_Century

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by ShadowCell » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:24 am

uh, i'm not seeing where the conflict is here. how does Unicorn conflict with F91, Crossbone, and Victory?

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:38 am

ShadowCell wrote:uh, i'm not seeing where the conflict is here. how does Unicorn conflict with F91, Crossbone, and Victory?
Honestly, I don't really know how to explain. From what I could pick up, the Unicorn aftermath seemed to have solved, even to a degree, the inequality between Earthlings and Spacers (I use those terms because the adding Earth/Space for Humanoid doesn't quite make sense to me when I think about it grammar-wise) by adding representatives from the colonies while the materials surrounding the 0100s seem to hint that there are still problems with the colonies that lead to the Zanscare, Jupiter, and Babylonia forces rising up. Of course, there's always the possibility that those factions were just started up by dictators that are idealistic and prideful for their own good. Then again, I could've gotten my research wrong.

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by toysdream » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:48 pm

That doesn't seem like a very strong argument for a continuity conflict. The more likely explanation, I think, is that the ending of Unicorn didn't really change anything or have any major effect. :-)

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:17 pm

toysdream wrote:That doesn't seem like a very strong argument for a continuity conflict. The more likely explanation, I think, is that the ending of Unicorn didn't really change anything or have any major effect. :-)

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Maybe, but that kind of makes things a little sucky. No offense. Trust me, if you've heard the Neo Zeon theme in that OVA, you'd understand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xW81SBrQT8

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by toysdream » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:23 pm

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Unicorn "solved [...] the inequality [...] by adding representatives from the colonies." No actual political changes are mentioned in the story, let alone anything radical enough to change the course of later UC history.

Anyway, the conflicts in the later series aren't driven by Spacenoid inequality or Zeon-related grudges - if anything, Unicorn serves to wrap up all of the first-century U.C. conflicts and thus clear the deck for all the new ones.

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:28 pm

toysdream wrote:I'm not sure where you get the idea that Unicorn "solved [...] the inequality [...] by adding representatives from the colonies." No actual political changes are mentioned in the story, let alone anything radical enough to change the course of later UC history.

Anyway, the conflicts in the later series aren't driven by Spacenoid inequality or Zeon-related grudges - if anything, Unicorn serves to wrap up all of the first-century U.C. conflicts and thus clear the deck for all the new ones.

-- Mark
I'm not sure either. Maybe the novel? I'm sorry. I just don't what to think.

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by Amion » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:07 pm

Think about what the people who start the conflicts are talking about.

Cosmo Babylon/Rona Family: Aristocrats are superior in morals and dignity and intillect and deserve to lead the unworthy masses.

Crossbone Gundam Rona Family, or at least the female one, I believe her name was Serenda or something: Believes in Contolism (Is that right Mark?), Zeon Daikun's philosophy of a superior human being evolving as they adapt to space. She also believes Newtypes are superior and need to rule other humans same as her late relatives who started Cosmo Babylon, just replaces Nobles with Newtypes.

Crossbone Gundam Jupiter Empire: Basically life at Jupiter was harder than expected. The people of Jupiter decided Earth is where Humans should live and they want to go back and conquer it for themselves and posterity. Their founder and leader, Crux Dogatie, uses this desire to forward his own ends: the annihilation of all life on Earth. His reasons are somewhat petty; he hates Terrans for abandoning him and his colonists and has decided to make everyone live like he had to at Jupiter. In a nutshell his beliefs are: If I couldn't live happily like on Earth, then no one will!"

Jupiter Republic: founded by Fonse Kagatie. No real relation to Dogatie, just similar names. Fonse apparently reordered Jupiter during the gap years between Crossbone and Victory. We've never seen what Victory's Jupiter Republic believes as far as ideology, only that they built the Angel Halo deathweapon, so far as I know.

Zanscare Empire: Founded by Fonse Kagatie when he found Maria Pi Armonia, arguably the most bizarre Newtype of all time, possessing Messianic powers of supernatural healing. She's got a cult following of people who worship her. "Hail Maria!" says it all about Zanscare's official ideals. They want to make Maria ruler of the Earth Sphere because she's a goddess to them. "Spread Maria's Motherly Love", they say. By crushing people to death, beheading, and stuff, they believe they can accomplish this.

Fonse Kagatie is the real mastermind, though, and wants to rule over the Earth for unspecified ideals. At any rate, the Angel Halo's purpose as a psychic killing machine is perfectly known to him, and we're led to believe that's its intended purpose to start with. So Fonse is basically like Kagatie: a very unhappy bald man wanting to commit mass murder.*

*Tomino is bald, come to think...

So you see, these future conflicts have nothing to do with the Zeon/Federation conflict. That ended. The Federation moves into space and becomes corrupt and inefficient at keeping a powerful military to keep those crazy colonist states from building powerful armies to wipe out life on Earth. And ignored Jupiter and got its colonists angry at them.
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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:22 pm

Amion wrote:Think about what the people who start the conflicts are talking about.

Cosmo Babylon/Rona Family: Aristocrats are superior in morals and dignity and intillect and deserve to lead the unworthy masses.

Crossbone Gundam Rona Family, or at least the female one, I believe her name was Serenda or something: Believes in Contolism (Is that right Mark?), Zeon Daikun's philosophy of a superior human being evolving as they adapt to space. She also believes Newtypes are superior and need to rule other humans same as her late relatives who started Cosmo Babylon, just replaces Nobles with Newtypes.

Crossbone Gundam Jupiter Empire: Basically life at Jupiter was harder than expected. The people of Jupiter decided Earth is where Humans should live and they want to go back and conquer it for themselves and posterity. Their founder and leader, Crux Dogatie, uses this desire to forward his own ends: the annihilation of all life on Earth. His reasons are somewhat petty; he hates Terrans for abandoning him and his colonists and has decided to make everyone live like he had to at Jupiter. In a nutshell his beliefs are: If I couldn't live happily like on Earth, then no one will!"

Jupiter Republic: founded by Fonse Kagatie. No real relation to Dogatie, just similar names. Fonse apparently reordered Jupiter during the gap years between Crossbone and Victory. We've never seen what Victory's Jupiter Republic believes as far as ideology, only that they built the Angel Halo deathweapon, so far as I know.

Zanscare Empire: Founded by Fonse Kagatie when he found Maria Pi Armonia, arguably the most bizarre Newtype of all time, possessing Messianic powers of supernatural healing. She's got a cult following of people who worship her. "Hail Maria!" says it all about Zanscare's official ideals. They want to make Maria ruler of the Earth Sphere because she's a goddess to them. "Spread Maria's Motherly Love", they say. By crushing people to death, beheading, and stuff, they believe they can accomplish this.

Fonse Kagatie is the real mastermind, though, and wants to rule over the Earth for unspecified ideals. At any rate, the Angel Halo's purpose as a psychic killing machine is perfectly known to him, and we're led to believe that's its intended purpose to start with. So Fonse is basically like Kagatie: a very unhappy bald man wanting to commit mass murder.*

*Tomino is bald, come to think...

So you see, these future conflicts have nothing to do with the Zeon/Federation conflict. That ended. The Federation moves into space and becomes corrupt and inefficient at keeping a powerful military to keep those crazy colonist states from building powerful armies to wipe out life on Earth. And ignored Jupiter and got its colonists angry at them.
Okay. That makes some sense. Thanks.

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by Amion » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:23 pm

Good. Because I'd be stuck how to explain it otherwise. :P
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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by Kratos » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:33 am

Regarding Unicorn's ending, it fits better than you might think, and you don't even have to get all cynical and say "it had no effect at all in the end."

As noted by Amion, the one major political change made clear across F91 and Victory is that the Federation has a greatly weakened/diminished presence in space, allowing the antagonistic forces of those stories to gain power unchecked. How does that relate to Unicorn's ending? Well, in that ending, it's revealed to the world as a whole that the Federation has been knowingly suppressing legislation from the space settlements that would have given them significantly greater say in their own governance. It's entirely believable that the Federation would have been under a lot of pressure to decrease their military presence and puppet governing among the colonies if asked to, that their exhausted state would have prevented them from keeping their old position by force, and that more and more colonies would jump on that train as time went on.

Is it a retcon? Sure. Prior to Unicorn, that just kinda happened as time went on and an exhausted Federation couldn't keep as tight a hold on matters in space. Unicorn's ending is very similar to 0083's, in that it provides an explanation to something that had already been sufficiently explained (albeit less directly). But to call it a contradiction - or even inconsequential - isn't really accurate either, I think.
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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by Amion » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:06 pm

Kratos wrote:Regarding Unicorn's ending, it fits better than you might think, and you don't even have to get all cynical and say "it had no effect at all in the end."

As noted by Amion, the one major political change made clear across F91 and Victory is that the Federation has a greatly weakened/diminished presence in space, allowing the antagonistic forces of those stories to gain power unchecked. How does that relate to Unicorn's ending? Well, in that ending, it's revealed to the world as a whole that the Federation has been knowingly suppressing legislation from the space settlements that would have given them significantly greater say in their own governance. It's entirely believable that the Federation would have been under a lot of pressure to decrease their military presence and puppet governing among the colonies if asked to, that their exhausted state would have prevented them from keeping their old position by force, and that more and more colonies would jump on that train as time went on.

Is it a retcon? Sure. Prior to Unicorn, that just kinda happened as time went on and an exhausted Federation couldn't keep as tight a hold on matters in space. Unicorn's ending is very similar to 0083's, in that it provides an explanation to something that had already been sufficiently explained (albeit less directly). But to call it a contradiction - or even inconsequential - isn't really accurate either, I think.
Is there anyone who knows the source of the rumor that the Federation actually moved into space by Victory? I seem to recall that was mentioned in side material. Of course, that'd not be canon.
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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:27 pm

I think I may have been under such earlier assumptions by reading stuff such as this. http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Magallanica#History I wouldn't call Unicorn's late enrollment in the continuity a retcon. Not necessarily, anyway. But I would be happier, if there were more dubbings for shows such as Victory and ZZ, anime based on manga like Plot to Assassinate Gihren, and new things to resolve the empty space that connects Unicorn to F91 which in turn would be connected to Victory, you see?

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by Amion » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:41 pm

I agree with you that Unicorn doesn't retcon anything. At least not to me, at least.

Still, I personally have no issue whatsoever with there being a nice, big peaceful gap between 91 and Unicorn. It feels like the logical reason for why no one shows up that we know by that time: peace. Bright retires and goes his own way like everyone else. Judua goes to Jupiter and probably doesn't come back because there's no need. Bahager and Mineva disappear and live quietly somewhere.

And Angelo "Captain!" dyes his hair and marries into the Rona family as Corosso.*Winks*

Then, when the Federation has rotted so much because of the peace they all fought for, the warring space states period begins with F91-Victory. And apparently continues until cannibalism and then ultimately the Reguild Century and Reconguista...

Personally its my favorite part of the UC timeline. Mostly because Crossbone bridges the gap so beautifully between F91 and V, while being probably my favorite Gundam work period. It just all feels so natural and fluid for things to change, and Unicorn just gave us a reason for why on top of what we assumed.
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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:57 pm

As long as that rather depressing end for Hathaway doesn't happen, that's fine with me. Actually Iron Mask is supposed to be a year younger than Angelo, so I'm not entirely sure if that would be the case. I'm also not sure if the Universal Century is in the same universe alongside most of the other centuries. They just sound so worlds apart. Doesn't mean there can't be references like the Haros and such. Still, you make a valid point.

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by Strike Zero » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:34 pm

degwin_zabi wrote:As long as that rather depressing end for Hathaway doesn't happen, that's fine with me.
Eh, Hathaway's Flash's place in the animated timeline has always been a bit dubious, given that it's a direct sequel to the novel version of Char's Counterattack, and the contents of which differ somewhat significantly from the movie version.

Don't ask me in what way, though; I'm not overly familiar with the details.
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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:39 pm

From what I understand, in the novel, Hathaway killed his love interest rather than someone else doing the deed. Then again, his life may have ended badly anyway when he killed Amuro's love interest.

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Re: The Later Universal Century and afterwards

Post by degwin_zabi » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:12 pm

Although now that I think about it, there's still that Mars Zeon remnant thing in the Later Universal Century that caught me of guard.

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