The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Anime Thread Mk II

[AmuroNT1]

The thing is that the Japanese Wiki definition Mark brings up is pretty much exactly how the distinction is handled in the Super Robot Wars games; Reals like mobile suits, valkyries, and arm slaves are smaller and agile while Supers like Mazinger, Getter, and Gaogaigar are tanks. That explanation works purely from a gameplay standpoint, but when you're trying to label an anime series itself there are problems. Mainly we get situations where people look at shows like Dougram and Gundam 00 and snark "The heroes never lose, so it's obviously Super Robot". In other words, it's the same old argument we've been seeing for years where people complain about how this show or that show is boring because it abuses "plot armor". I find this this kind of attitude really frustrating because it effectively turns "Super Robot" into a dirty word.

As to what Build Fighters is...I wouldn't call it Super OR Real. These aren't robots in the first place, they're toys. Even if it's based on Gundam (which is labeled Real for everything except G), Build Fighters fits more closely in with the other "collectible battle" anime like Pokémon, Yu-Gu-Oh, and their fellows. And no, I'm NOT saying that's a bad thing.

[Chris]

The solution I've thought is that we look at Super and Real as binary terms when they aren't. It isn't "either a Super or a Real", it's more like adding up a lot of different variables and coming up with how "Real" or "Super" it feels.

I prefer to view "super" and "real" as more of a general aesthetic than a checklist of specific elements. If you try to define "real" shows by certain elements, there's never going to be anything completely pure because every real show has at least some elements that might be considered "super." I'll also agree with Amuro's statement that the way some people talk about real shows, they use "super robot" as a dirty word. Not everything has to be grizzled old men in dirty robots fighting in trenches. If something wants to have a kid and his wacky scientist dad, there's nothing wrong with that.

[toysdream]

Well, I was just telling Mark the difference between plot armor and being calling a mecha a super robot because said robot takes lots of punishment.

Being able to name-check "TV Tropes" isn't a definitive argument-finishing move, even in 2014.

Anyway, Luna Titanium and Gundanium and so on aren't "plot armor," they're armor armor. There's an in-story explanation as to why all the enemy's weapons bounce harmlessly off the hero. That doesn't make it any more "real" or scientific than the "Super Alloy Z" used to build Mazinger, which is refined from Japanium ore extracted from Mount Fuji. But it's not just an aura of plot convenience, either.

As for Build Fighters, I think it's probably in whatever genre was represented by Plawres Sanshiro 3.

-- Mark

[AmuroNT1]

Now, I'm not saying Plot Armor doesn't exist at all. In fact, one of the most blatant instances I've ever seen comes from Gundam Wing ep.19, in the scene where Treize commandeers a Leo in order to fight the mobile dolls. He spends about 30 seconds under sustained machine gun fire and doesn't take a scratch.

But to me, using "Plot Armor" as an excuse for disliking a show or character is really worn out. It's kind of an unspoken rule of fiction that the main characters aren't going to be defeated by nameless enemies early in the story (unless you're throwing the audience a curve ball, most famously seen in Robert Rodriguez's "Grindhouse"). Saying that one particular story is bad because of this ignores all the other stories that also rely upon this rule.

[balofo]

Are EVAs real or super?

[Calubin_175]

Well that sure is a cynical way to interpret the episode.

What it's really highlighting is the importance of creativity. The other team was arrogant because they believed they knew everything about the Trys and so they were blindsided by unexpected developments. The more elaborate the plan, the more easily it falls apart when things outside your predictions happen.

You do realise that the thing with the Winning Gundam is also a tactic, right? Even if you had your advanced invincible robot just charge at the enemy, that's still a tactic. A simple one, yeah, but simple is usually best. Using the equipment you have to the greatest effect is a requirement for a tactician.

Yes, I figured recognised that. The creativity part served as a reasonable plot device in overcoming tactically orientated foe.

Anyway, don't worry about the discussion about super vs real or super within real, or the semantics on it. I was just a bit saddened about how they were defeated by toy gimmicks.

Besides, Team SRCC weren't Gunpla-versed people to begin with, so they might have viewed Gunpla in a too utilitarian way and forgot the character, passion and creativity aspect of it.

Anime liked to show the flaws of predictive analysis, such as that in data tennis, or the data guy in Kill la Kill.

[Calubin_175]

Are EVAs real or super?

Real Super- Super with some explanation. Gunbuster and Ideon led to that. This was as opposed to the 70s Super Robots and late 80s Super Robots.

i would dub Super Real as Real robot genres with a select few overpowered mechs using uncommon overtechnology, which is quite justifiable. So there is Valvrave, Aldnoah Zero(Mars side) and Gundam 00(S1).

Anyway let's get back on topic.

Did anyone realised that the random field selected was announced first before the contestants placed their Gunplas? Perhaps teams respond accordingly at the time. So the swimming team might have chosen desert mobile suits instead for a desert stage.

[Gundam420]

Anyway, don't worry about the discussion about super vs real or super within real, or the semantics on it. I was just a bit saddened about how they were defeated by toy gimmicks.

Wait, wait, wait...You're complaining about a toy using gimmicks, in a show that's all about toys?

[gunform1010]

Anyway, don't worry about the discussion about super vs real or super within real, or the semantics on it. I was just a bit saddened about how they were defeated by toy gimmicks.

Wait, wait, wait...You're complaining about a toy using gimmicks, in a show that's all about toys?

Exactly. You can't complain about the basis of the whole thing. There will be gimmicks such as the Build Knuckle and with sequel escalation- there will be more knuckles and whatever else the show chooses to keep consistently.

[Kuruni]

No, by your logic, everything will keep getting smaller in scale for each sequel. The next season will be about gashapon and gimmick will be just smallest stick ever seen .

On Super VS Real stuff, I would like to note that even Banpresto seem to give up the concept somewhat. They no longer classify mech with that notion since Alpha 3 (IIRC), when Brasta got upgraded, your choice is Melee and Rnage, rather than Super and Real. Even in OG which they have full reign, only otaku like Ryusei still use the terms in-universe (Gespenst have their R and S retcon into Rapidity and Strength). So really, I think they try to avoid it (not to mention that in OG, especially OG1 part, many super robot like Grungust series seem to be analog to Gundam's mobile armor - big, powerful, but still treated as war machine).

Readding Mark's comment remind me of old SRW F's promo video, which for some reason has each featured series introduced "in English", and RX-78-2 was called "super robot on battlefield" .

For myself, I still stick to If people treat mech as vehicle, it's real. If it's embodiment of justice, friendship, righteous, courage, etc, then it's super." which work for most of time. And thank to TV Tropes, I manage to split the notion between works' genre and individual mecha, so I have no problem count Overman King Gainer as "real robot series" but the King Gainer itself is "super robot".

EVA is actually inspired by Ultraman, but disguised as mecha, so I say it's Super Hero .

[toysdream]

I'm finding this line of discussion pretty interesting. Thanks, all, for the diversion from an otherwise unmotivating week!

For myself, I still stick to If people treat mech as vehicle, it's real. If it's embodiment of justice, friendship, righteous, courage, etc, then it's super." which work for most of time.

How about Tetsujin 28, then? We're told in the opening song that...

"Sometimes, he's an ally of justice
Sometimes, he's the devil's tool
Good or bad, it depends on the remote control"

Probably we should think of the latter-day "super robot" and "real robot" strains as being specialized descendants of the original robot stories, like Tetsujin and Mazinger, which transcend all subgenres.

EVA is actually inspired by Ultraman, but disguised as mecha, so I say it's Super Hero .

And that gets us into the whole tokusatsu/SFX genre, which can ultimately be traced back to Gerry Anderson shows like Thunderbirds and Supercar...


As for the role of martial arts and super punches in the Gunpla Battle Championship, the back story of G Gundam tells us that for many years the Gundam Fight was dominated by ranged-combat specialists like Gentle Chapman's John Bull Gundam. It was only with the upset victory of Master Asia that all the colony nations started looking into martial arts-based fighting methods. Logically, you'd expect something similar might start to happen with Gunpla Battle as well, but maybe the exploits of Meijin Kawaguchi III inspired everyone to start carrying a billion guns around in giant suitcases.

-- Mark

[Mythgarr]

There's no real robots or super robots anymore. Heck, you can call ZZ onward as super robots. Unlimited beam spams, colony-laser blocking pyscoframe shields, etc etc.

[Kuruni]

I said "most of time", there are still several cases that I make exception to the definition, usually because the mech is so overpower (Zeorymer and Zearth are two that come up to my mind at moment) that call the work "real robot genre" just feel...not right.

So yeah, even that doesn't alway work. I guess it's something to mecha fan as definition of moral is to philosophers .

Probably we should think of the latter-day "super robot" and "real robot" strains as being specialized descendants of the original robot stories, like Tetsujin and Mazinger, which transcend all subgenres.

From what my poor brain can process...Tetsujin and Mazinger start the genre, as what TV Troeps call Unbuilt Tropes, the early works that's not bound by definition/expectation yet, and thus can be greatly diverge from "norm" when we look back at them. Lets say Mazinger coin the term "Super Robot" by its OP (ahh...I wonder if media back then actually use the word to descript Mazinger? without its "real" counterpart, the term seem to only indicate that it's powerful robot, like super hero to typical hero, and nothing else), and several early work (such as Raideen, Combattler V) start shaping the genre into what we have today.

Then come Gundam, but at that point the term "real robot" isn't invent yet...the definition people have in their mind back then might actually be "super robot on battlefield" for real . It's until later work like Dougram and VOTOMS again shaping "super robot on battlefield" subgenre into something more and more diverge from "super robot". And so when Banpresto made SRW4, they decide that this subgenre is diverge enough to be on its own, "real robot".

[latenlazy]

Finally got to the most recent episode, and it's beginning to confirm an unfortunate feeling I've been having for the last two or three episodes.

One of the strengths of the first BFs was that a lot of secondary characters didn't need to fit shallow tropey archetypes to be interesting. Sure there were tropes attached to characters in BFs, but I don't feel like any of the characters were defined by them. They were more than their tropes. They had depth. While it's still pretty early in the series, I feel like that has not been the case in Try Fighters. I'm finding even the main characters very one dimensional bland, and the opponents and rivals that are being set up lack depth (which wasn't the case in BFs). It's making the character drama a lot less interesting for me (I can only take so many instances of Yuuma and Sekai's interactions boiling down to Yuuma calling Sekai stupid, and then Sekai showing how stupid can work), and that's a huge part of what carried the original series. I'm still going to follow the show for the mech porn, but my expectations are dropping somewhat.

With regards to the episode specifically, as someone who works with data a lot, I find it incredulous that a team that is defined by strategy and tactics built around the collection of data doesn't seem mindful of a cardinal rule in data work, which is you have to be even more aware of what you don't know than what you do know (gotta ask a lot of counterfactuals if you want to be good at data analysis). My personal perspective on that one only accentuates the criticism I levied earlier. It's a classic example of employing poorly developed caricatures that are set up just to make the main characters look good, and that's something the original BFs largely either avoided, or played around with a bit so that the usage of that device wasn't so linear or constraining.

[Amion]

I admit my enthusiasm for BF TRY is not what it was for the original. I don't believe we can really say the characters are too undefined yet. There's plenty of time to do that. BF didn't have three main leads sharing the spot-light. Granted, the future episodes may not build on the characters, and then I'll be in your boat, Lazy.

For me, the only thing holding TRY back is that it's too serious. BF ceaselessly and shamelessly made fun of itself and other Gundam shows, while constantly paying them tribute. TRY is doing none of that. Looking at this last battle, the first thing I noticed was that the characters are reacting as real pilots would. One of the things that struck me when watching Build Fighters was how the fighters behaved mostly like one might if they were standing at their table playing a video or board game. They'd get intense, but the ones who screamed or had their cameras rocked were exceptions, not norms. And usually those exceptions were quirky characters, minus Aila and her legitimately dangerous helmet program.

TRY's still good, but it's trying to hard to be serious. It feels more and more like Pokemon or Yu-gi-oh. Not a bad thing, but not as good as the original. Yet. We're still early in and who knows what they might pull next.

After all, we still have Gyanko.

[BrentD15]

For me, the only thing holding TRY back is that it's too serious. BF ceaselessly and shamelessly made fun of itself and other Gundam shows, while constantly paying them tribute. TRY is doing none of that. Looking at this last battle, the first thing I noticed was that the characters are reacting as real pilots would. One of the things that struck me when watching Build Fighters was how the fighters behaved mostly like one might if they were standing at their table playing a video or board game. They'd get intense, but the ones who screamed or had their cameras rocked were exceptions, not norms. And usually those exceptions were quirky characters, minus Aila and her legitimately dangerous helmet program.

Some people take their tournament stuff seriously.

[HellCat]

I agree near completely with the last few posts. If this was some manga running in a kid's title I'd just ignore it, but coming on the heels of a great fun little show that was able to sell kits while at the same time never getting too serious or forgetting to keep things fun......what the hell happened?

My mind keeps going to what Imagawa did with G. How Bandai wanted a Gundam tournament show and he saw this as a terrible idea and created the Devil Gundam plot to have an actual story. BF copied that notion with the stuff about Reiji's home. Try isn't doing that. It's going for a fairly generic shonen merchandise tournie show that just so happens to use the Gundam library. We've lost things like memorable characters, amusing reaction shots and any sense of fun for something that just feels so...generic. It's a real case of be careful what you wish for. I was overjoyed when they announced Try but at about a month and a half into the show it just really isn't winning me over. I know Sunrise/Bandai are more hands on but I have to wonder if the director is also to blame.

BF worked because there was something for everyone. Cool robot customs, great battles, loveable characters and jokes that celebrated Gundam and its fans while also taking well deserved shots.

Try....well, the fact 'G-Muse' was basically 'Gundam Front Tokyo is awesome and you should want to go there' shows what is being placed first this time round.

[Amion]

If the cooperate side of things are at the helm this time, it's small wonder that attempts to be fun are taking the literal time off. I'd search the brig if you're looking for them. Bandai takes gunpla VERY seriously.

Hopefully things will turn around. You never know, Hellcat.

After all, speak of the Devil. We're getting Allenby/Domon stuff. There may yet be an actual serious plot to this whole caboodle. Course, the whole point of my post was I wanted something not so serious.

Truth is, Brent is right. Some people like taking their tournaments seriously. Still, there's the mecha porn, and the characters are well defined at the template level. It only takes one new episode for things to instantly start heading back in the right direction. Drama from next week, for instance.

[AceOfSpades1]

Ok as much as I'm enjoying Build Fighters Try; there are two things that have been bothering me since Episode 01. First why is the main suit called Build Burning Gundam? Now I understand the Build part; it's a Build of a mobile suit modified; like the first series mobile suit started off as Build Strike. But why Burning Gundam? The Japanese for the suit was God Gundam and only changed to Burning Gundam for US release; and since the series hasn't come out here I don't understand why it's not Build God Gundam. Now onto my second issue; since the suit is a build of Burning/God Gundam why does it therefore lack the primary attack of said mobile suit the God/Burning Finger? It posses' an odd punch but that seems based more around the pilots jigen hao martial arts style rather then the mobile suits. So far all it seems to posses is higher then normal melee combat abilities.

[Raikoh]

Build Burning is an original build, not based on God Gundam at all. The staff had no clue that God Gundam was even called "Burning" in the West. People just jumped to conclusions based on the name and that it uses martial arts even though Build Burning looks nothing like God Gundam.

The "Burning" is for its fire-attribute.