The Official Gundam Reconguista Anime Thread Mk II

[Amion]

I don't even know who that is, his opinion hardly has any sway on me. "Oh he worked in Gainax in the 80s" well I never heard of him. I get the feeling he's just looking for some cheap and easy press coverage.

It's not even a quarter of the way through its runtime yet. Say what you will about individual episodes, but I'm getting real tired of people outright saying a show is a flop, makes no sense, and other things to that degree when we're not even ankle deep (this applies to more than just Reco). It's like going to watch a movie, saying, "Well, it sucks" fifteen minutes in and then just walking out. We've had series with bad first episodes that really pick up later on, as well as series with great starts losing steam and becoming crap in the past (lots of these). I know that people say that first impressions are important, but they aren't the only measure of quality.

Seconded. I'm at least waiting two more episodes before making any definite judgements on character development and plot sensibility. It's too early and we may get a recap episode. Heck, if this were Victory Gundam, we'd still be in the midst of that utterly confounding flashback of Uso's. This is worlds more informative and straight forward than that.

Also, I'm taking G Reconguista as a mystery story with mecha, versus a straight up sociopolitica drama. Mysteries are often confusing and unravel slowly.

[latenlazy]

Socio-political dramas sometimes employ mystery narratives too .

[LightningCount]

Under the current climate, I think the problem is that when something is "new," people aren't going to give it much time to be "perfect" to their expectations. We're all fans of Gundam with a lot of info on the ins and outs of the franchise; but if you're not a fan of Gundam in a broad sense, or aren't a fan of Gundam or mecha to start with, you're not going to give something like this much leeway. Animation and movies get just a little more benefit of the doubt because they're visual, but something like comics or novels get even less time than they deserve to develop their worlds and characters. It seems people expect everything to be straightforward and simple, which is a shame. I haven't dug into G-Reco yet, but the fact that it's not spoon-feeding answers isn't something that concerns me about it. I remember when Wing came out, even with the narration, it took me a while to understand what was going on.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I get the feeling he's just looking for some cheap and easy press coverage.

Or, and here's a crazy thought, maybe that's what he honestly thinks about the series? I know some of you guys apparently find the idea of some one having a legitimate problem with the show utterly perposterous, but I assure you some one who does so isn't doing it as part of some evil hidden agenda.

He does make some valid points, especially about Tomino not evolving with the times. His style really hasn't change at all in the 50 years he's been active in the industry. Maybe you'd argue "You don't need to change perfection!" and maybe his style is okay for a masturbatory arthouse works, but if he wants to make a commercial work of entertainment that can be enjoyed by many, he needs to understand his audience.

And yes, 4 episodes into a show there should at least be some clue to the direction in which it's heading, especially for a 26 episode series. You can only say "just wait and see!" for so long before the public loses interest and moves on to something else.

Now before you all go misinterpreting me or putting words in my mouth, please do note that I have never described the show as bad.

[latenlazy]

I get the feeling he's just looking for some cheap and easy press coverage.

Or, and here's a crazy thought, maybe that's what he honestly thinks about the series? I know some of you guys apparently find the idea of some one having a legitimate problem with the show utterly perposterous, but I assure you some one who does so isn't doing it as part of some evil hidden agenda.

He does make some valid points, especially about Tomino not evolving with the times. His style really hasn't change at all in the 50 years he's been active in the industry. Maybe you'd argue "You don't need to change perfection!" and maybe his style is okay for a masturbatory arthouse works, but if he wants to make a commercial work of entertainment that can be enjoyed by many, he needs to understand his audience.

And yes, 4 episodes into a show there should at least be some clue to the direction in which it's heading, especially for a 26 episode series. You can only say "just wait and see!" for so long before the public loses interest and moves on to something else.

Now before you all go misinterpreting me or putting words in my mouth, please do note that I have never described the show as bad.

Hey hey, I believe in live and let live. The way I see it the meat of the last couple of exchanges have been more about sharing different interpretations, observations, and understandings of what we're each seeing. People can draw their own conclusions afterwards.

I do want to say though that I think it's sad if the way we measure the success or quality of a work is by its popularity and commercial achievement. Storytelling is so much more than that, and I strongly believe that we owe it to ourselves to be active thinkers and not just passive viewers in our consumption of entertainment. Whether you think a series is good or bad is less important than the reasons behind why you think the series is good or bad. I don't believe in superior or inferior conclusions in subjective matters, but I do believe that there are superior and inferior reasons for drawing a conclusion on something subjective.

[Raikoh]

The thing is that using terms like "very bad" are strong opinions, probably doubly so in Japan where there's a deeper investment into the concept of Wa and whatnot. He knows that saying something like, "It hasn't really caught my interest so far," or something to that extent wouldn't get nearly as much press as saying, "It sucks!"

I mean, let's look at Otaku no Video, one of his few major projects. It's difficult to tell what's going on for the first 20-30 minutes or so, and that's a work that's only 2 45-minute OVAs. Gunbuster didn't get really good until episode 4, 2/3rds of the way in. Does that mean that his work sucks? Not particularly. I liked Otaku no Video and I love Gunbuster.

We're four episodes in and we've already established our major characters, laid out their motivations (even characters like Luin who hasn't become a huge part of the plot yet), built the world, as well as outlining what the positive and negative aspects of our two major factions are. Most series plan on indefinite sequels (light novel anime are particularly bad about this) or falling back onto established character archetypes, so if not doing that is Tomino's way of not changing with the times, I say more power to him.

The major problem I could see with Tomino sticking with his formula is the desire to put a battle in every episode. He's worked them in fairly organically so far, and many times the battles are very brief so as to not disrupt the pacing of the plot, but if it isn't handled with care, the battle scenes might end up becoming a hiccup later down the road like they were in Dunbine.

Also what Latenlazy said. I'm the type who realizes I probably can't change someone's opinion, but if I see something I disagree with or feel like I could shed some light on, I can't help myself but to share my own viewpoint on the matter.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I do want to say though that I think it's sad if the way we measure the success or quality of a work is by its popularity and commercial achievement. Storytelling is so much more than that, and I strongly believe that we owe it to ourselves to be active thinkers and not just passive viewers in our consumption of entertainment. Whether you think a series is good or bad is less important than the reasons behind why you think the series is good or bad. I don't believe in superior or inferior conclusions in subjective matters, but I do believe that there are superior and inferior reasons for drawing a conclusion on something subjective.

As I've explained before, it's a question of intent vs. outcome. Let's say I set out to make you laugh, but I don't. As such that means my joke was bad, or I failed to properly convey what was funny about it. Either way it was a failing on my part, something I need to improve on. If Tomino wanted to make something for a general audience to enjoy, then he hasn't done that great a job of it so far. Sure it might garner a cult following, and that's not bad, but a cult audience is not a general audience. This is an objective distinction.

Looking at sales figures and such is also an objective measure which is why people defer to them. You're right that's not a measure of quality, but does indicate success. Twilight is garbage, but it still succeeded in doing what it set out to do.

The thing is that using terms like "very bad" are strong opinions, probably doubly so in Japan where there's a deeper investment into the concept of Wa and whatnot. He knows that saying something like, "It hasn't really caught my interest so far," or something to that extent wouldn't get nearly as much press as saying, "It sucks!"

Question: did you watch the video or just read the transcript? Because in the video he's pretty jovial about it. I don't get the impression he's just being vindictive, or being all Nostalgia Ciritc-mad about it. He's just being frank about what he thinks.

We're four episodes in and we've already established our major characters, laid out their motivations (even characters like Luin who hasn't become a huge part of the plot yet)

This I'm not so sure. Let's look at Bellri. He's our main character, the guy we're supposed to identify with and latch onto, the character who is supposed to have the most put into him. What are his motivations, exactly? Does he want to stop a war? Does he want to protect his friends? Has he been put into a situation where he has no choice? Does he want to convert all the pirates to his religion? I don't really see signs of anything like that. All I know for sure is that he wants to get into Aida's pants. That's a pretty filmsy motive with all this other stuff going on around him, especially when I don't really see anything about Aida worth fighting for.

[latenlazy]

As I've explained before, it's a question of intent vs. outcome. Let's say I set out to make you laugh, but I don't. As such that means my joke was bad, or I failed to properly convey what was funny about it. Either way it was a failing on my part, something I need to improve on. If Tomino wanted to make something for a general audience to enjoy, then he hasn't done that great a job of it so far. Sure it might garner a cult following, and that's not bad, but a cult audience is not a general audience. This is an objective distinction.

So in principle I agree with the premise of intent vs outcome, but I think it's not only not the only premise, but it's not even a one dimensional premise. You could have multiple intentions and not deliver one a couple, but still do really good work and hit all the others. I think you're taking this "he wants to target children" thing a bit too far. Also, we don't yet have any general data on how it's performing with the general audience, only anecdotes, so it's really hard to draw conclusions on that specific point, but even if it didn't perform that well with a general audience, that still shouldn't be the singular thing we judge its accomplishments, success, and quality by.

After all, success is about more than the quality of the show. For a show it's also about who the target demographic is, how well targeted that target demographic is, what the competition is, etc etc (Optimizing for any of these can sometimes negatively impact quality!). Once we begin discussing the success of the show we're leaving the realms of literary and film analysis and entering the realm of sociological and market analysis. We COULD talk about that bit of course, but then we might be leaving the substantive confines of this specific thread.

Looking at sales figures and such is also an objective measure which is why people defer to them. You're right that's not a measure of quality, but does indicate success. Twilight is garbage, but it still succeeded in doing what it set out to do.

Twilight succeeded in what it set out to do, which is pander to a specific (weak-minded) demographic to make money. I guess maybe what it boils down to is whether you're trying to discuss success or quality. I'm really not interested in the former right now. Success is easier than quality in this industry, and the focus on easy success is what's ruining a lot of Anime for me.

[Mythgarr]

Let's look at Bellri. He's our main character, the guy we're supposed to identify with and latch onto, the character who is supposed to have the most put into him. All I know for sure is that he wants to get into Aida's pants.

I see, you have identified yourself with Bellri's imaginary genital which's motive YOU ARE SO SURE OF. That's why you have been so anal about G-Reco so far. Nevermind the fact that you yourself have said in the previous jumbles of words that you're not sure of jack about Bellri's motive. But his genital, you're so sure!

[Destiny_Gundam]

So in principle I agree with the premise of intent vs outcome, but I think it's not only not the only premise, but it's not even a one dimensional premise. You could have multiple intentions and not deliver one a couple, but still do really good work and hit all the others. I think you're taking this "he wants to target children" thing a bit too far. Also, we don't yet have any general data on how it's performing with the general audience, only anecdotes, so it's really hard to draw conclusions on that specific point, but even if it didn't perform that well with a general audience, that still shouldn't be the singular thing we judge its accomplishments, success, and quality by.

Normally I'd say we can't know a creator's intents because we're not them, but in this case Tomino has come right out and said his intentions, so that puts it out on the table as criteria to judge the show by.

Speaking as a member of the general audience, some one who just watches the episode once and doesn't pause so he can review and analyze every line of dialogue, stuff does tend to just fly by and come off as nonsensical or just weird.

I see, you have identified yourself with Bellri's imaginary genital which's motive YOU ARE SO SURE OF. That's why you have been so anal about G-Reco so far. Nevermind the fact that you yourself have said in the previous jumbles of words that you're not sure of jack about Bellri's motive. But his genital, you're so sure!

Well, of course. I happen to have one myself, you know.

It also helps that his character profile says he fell for Aida at first sight, how she went all sparkly when he first saw her, why he runs off to save her from prison, how Noredo keeps pointing out that he's in love with her, etc. There are actually a bunch of things the show does spoonfeed you, like how King Koopa is up to no good.

And I said I wasn't sure about Bellri's motives? *Looks through past posts* Nope, never said that. If you can handle Tomino's jumbles of words why do you have an issue with mine?

I did question why all 4 of them crammed themselves into the G-Self in episode 3 and then just let Aida escape with barely any resistance, but that wasn't limited to just Bellri. The entire situation didn't make sense (outside of why King Koopa let it happen).

[latenlazy]

Normally I'd say we can't know a creator's intents because we're not them, but in this case Tomino has come right out and said his intentions, so that puts it out on the table as criteria to judge the show by.

I think you're reading wayyy too much into that. You can treat what he's saying in the interview as a criteria if you want, but let's not pretend that this is the only or even most important criteria. It's an animated series and a work of fiction, not a marketing campaign. It should be judged as the former, and not the latter.

Besides Tomino is chronically unreliable in his public interviews. Last week I shared something he said about where the animation industry was headed 3D animation, and talked about how Frozen was done with motion capture like Pacific Rim. A friend of mine who works in the industry and was a Tomino fan did a double take and asked for the original Japanese just to make sure that wasn't translated wrong, because of how wrong that assertion is. The dude is pretty quirky and may not understand any of the market success aspects of his work, but that doesn't mean his creations are thus guaranteed to be abject failures just because they don't work with the target audience he identified in an interview.

Speaking as a member of the general audience, some one who just watches the episode once and doesn't pause so he can review and analyze every line of dialogue, stuff does tend to just fly by and come off as nonsensical or just weird.

Anecdote . I don't disagree with some of the stuff you bring up about things flying over heads and weirdness, but it's not imperceptible to me, and I trust the writer and what I've seen so far enough to stick around with it for answers. It's hard to say how many people are compelled enough to stick around despite those quirky Tomino traits and how many are just so turned off they won't touch another episode, but I wouldn't make assumptions about how other viewers behave and react just based on your own reactions. I may not be the intended (or natural) target audience, but you may not be either!

[Raikoh]

Speaking as a member of the general audience, some one who just watches the episode once and doesn't pause so he can review and analyze every line of dialogue, stuff does tend to just fly by and come off as nonsensical or just weird.

I'd like to point out that I'm also of this type. Usually when I post reactions to an episode they are my first impressions immediately after watching the episode, and anything I post after that is just with more time for it to simmer in the back of my mind. Though I'm also the type who resonates very strongly with storytelling, so I can understand why other people wouldn't have those moments where they're driving or whatever and suddenly things just click in their mind.

[Amion]

I mentioned in a previous post of Bellri's likely motives, but an interest in Aida is probably one of them. I will state though that I empathize with his tastes. Aida is very easy on the eyes.

After reading so much of this, it seems to me that Destiny's primary point is that G Reconguista is NOT a kid's show designed for new casual audiences happening by to pick up and latch onto. And I for one agree on that. I'm enjoying G-reco but probably would have a different opinion from someone utterly clueless about the story.

For the record, Destiny, that one bit about the G-Self taking off and just defecting was probably the weakest part so far, I think. I can come up with logical reasons for why other stuff is happening, but that one is definitely a sore thumb. I wish we'd gotten something from Noredo or Bellri. Though part of me thinks he actually wanted to meet the other pirates. Noredo though...Grr. Yeah, I'm trying to pretend that Bellri's sudden need to use the nifty hidden throne in the cockpit seat was the reason for letting her defect. Nature sometimes trumps patriotism. Yeah... I'm gonna forget about that part of episode 3. It makes it more bearable.

[latenlazy]

Forgot to add that criticism should be weighed proportionally.

[Destiny_Gundam]

Anecdote . I don't disagree with some of the stuff you bring up about things flying over heads and weirdness, but it's not imperceptible to me, and I trust the writer and what I've seen so far enough to stick around with it for answers. It's hard to say how many people are compelled enough to stick around despite those quirky Tomino traits and how many are just so turned off they won't touch another episode, but I wouldn't make assumptions about how other viewers behave and react just based on your own reactions. I may not be the intended (or natural) target audience, but you may not be either!

In all honesty if it didn't have Gundam in the title I might have dropped it already. Like I said, I had no problems with Tomino's other shows. Heck, I probably like Brain Powerd more than most, and I've even read the original Gundam novels (Tomino really likes his underaged sex). But here, Tomino's typical quirkiness plus the lack of a strong hook does not have me very enthused. As such I'm less inclined to put much effort into trying to make sense of it all. It could get better later, sure, but right now we only have the first 4 episodes to base an opinion on.

I also can't imagine many people channel surfing, coming across this show, and then sticking around for the rest.

I mentioned in a previous post of Bellri's likely motives, but an interest in Aida is probably one of them. I will state though that I empathize with his tastes. Aida is very easy on the eyes.

Meh, she needs to be more than just that. She's not even the best looking girl. Luin's the one who lucked out there.

Well I never had high expectations for that particular aspect anyways. Even hardcore Tomino fans will admit he's not good at romance.

After reading so much of this, it seems to me that Destiny's primary point is that G Reconguista is NOT a kid's show designed for new casual audiences happening by to pick up and latch onto.

Yeah, but apparently it was supposed to be.

I wish we'd gotten something from Noredo or Bellri.

Noredo at least tried, albeit briefly, to take the controls away from Aida.

[Amion]

Yeah, ok. So Noredo tried, and then bellri did nothing. So that's how it went.

I do admit G no Reconguista is not a channel surf friendly show, not for casual young people. This is no Shounen, Boy. No Shounen! To paraphrase a certain Blue Giant...

[battletech]

After reading so much of this, it seems to me that Destiny's primary point is that G Reconguista is NOT a kid's show designed for new casual audiences happening by to pick up and latch onto.

Yeah, but apparently it was supposed to be.

lol Maybe Tomino has to much optimism for future generations ways of reasoning out things. Tomino: Future kids will be so advanced they will understand my convoluted mess.

[latenlazy]

Or maybe all the things that seem to bother teenagers and young adults about the non-obvious and "weird" stuff doesn't bother children. I'm pretty certain children pay almost no attention to the lack of plot details, and have a much simpler qualification for what they will watch. Some of it is rule of cool stuff, but some of it is going to be simpler emotionally driven stories.

[Amion]

After having watched episode 4 again, I'm positive the G-Self has some kind of SPT-Layzner styled defense mechanism (I was following Mahq's reviews, so that's why I thought of the comparison) whereby it uses some as yet poorly understood power to stop enemy attacks. And it's activated by the pilot's emotions somehow, given how the last two times we've seen Newtype background psychedelic stuff it's been when Bellri was conflicted about fighting.

There was also a moment at the end where both Bellri and Aida experience what I'm going to call a heart murmer for lack of a better term. They seemed to somehow "feel" the designs or whatever that're on the the G-Self's cockpit screen. Probably induced by those weird pendants the G-Self is giving. Rayaraiya didn't have one though... so they aren't necessary for piloting, or hers dropped unseen during her jettison.

The real question now is why is Rayaraiya (can't keep that name straight) mentally damaged? From the way Bellri shook after the battle with the Catsiths, he appeared almost shocked, and didn't seem to know what his hands had been doing, as if he'd blacked out. The energy shield field blocked all three beam sabers, but no one saw it so it's invisible to the naked eye. At this point, it looks like Dellenson thought it was the beam saber that did the work, and he just missed it being drawn or something. I wonder if the G-Self is actually possessing him like the Zero system and doing so did something to Rayaraiya to place her in her current state. I can't guess how Bellri would know to shout Su-Cord and move his hands the way he did otherwise. Mysteries abound...

[latenlazy]

I think Raraiya is just suffering from hypoxia.