Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

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Darkerangel
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Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by Darkerangel » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:49 pm

Okay so after reading a novel and on top of Unicorn, I'm totally confuse on the whole Newtype theory whether they are real or not.


On one hand I'm reading that (mind you this is early U.C. 0079) that they aren't real or that the ones you thing are, they don't believe they truly are one (mainly Amuro). But on the flip side, I'm thinking to myself, you're communicating through your consciousness (without spoke words) and mentally traveling to a higher state of mind...and yet, you're not/don't consider yourself as a Newtype?


Then Unicorn straight up confused me as they just kept coming back and forth of fact or theory. You have ones that don't believe Newtypes exist, yet you're communicating with a dead girl.


So my question is, within Universal Century, are Newtypes real or not?
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by gunform1010 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:53 pm

NTs are real I think. A NT is defined to be anybody with clairvoyance (i.e psychic powers) due to exposure to space. Certainly without a doubt Amuro, Kamille, and Judau are.
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by Dark Duel » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:07 pm

Newtypes are, as I see it, both very real and very poorly understood.
What I see as the reason for this is that there was never any real scientific effort to study and understand what Newtypes were, how they really differed from so-called Oldtypes, or the exact nature of their abilities and what the catalysts were that resulted in their development.

In roughly a century covered by the animated UC, as far as we know nobody ever asked questions like "How did they come about? Bow do these abilities work?"
Instead, they focused on "How can I exploit them to better serve my purpose?"
The closest we got was "How do I create living weapons that have similar abilities?" with the assorted Cyber-Newtype labs.
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:16 pm

I don't think the debate over Newtypes' existence is "Are there really people with extra-normal mental powers?" because it's kind of hard to deny things like the Zeta Gundam's mile-long ragesaber or Unicorn blocking a Colony Laser. (Of course, I'm sure such people exist - there's a few in every bunch.)

But rather, the major debate in the Universal Century is, are these psychic weirdos even human anymore? Zeon supporters espouse the idea that Newtypes are the next stage of human evolution, and therefore are the "rightful rulers" of the Earth Sphere. The Federation (particularly hegemonic old men like the ones who laughed off the Dublin colony drop in ZZ) tend to view them more as dangerous freaks of nature to be studied and weaponized.

Who's right? Well, as far as we know, nobody. Even Tomino himself has changed his stance on what a Newtype is, in recent interviews suggesting that they're simply people whose minds are open to all the possibilities of existence and remarking that everyone's a Newtype when they're born, but the harsh realities of growing up beat that out of most of us.
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by Amion » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:07 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote:I don't think the debate over Newtypes' existence is "Are there really people with extra-normal mental powers?" because it's kind of hard to deny things like the Zeta Gundam's mile-long ragesaber or Unicorn blocking a Colony Laser. (Of course, I'm sure such people exist - there's a few in every bunch.)

But rather, the major debate in the Universal Century is, are these psychic weirdos even human anymore? Zeon supporters espouse the idea that Newtypes are the next stage of human evolution, and therefore are the "rightful rulers" of the Earth Sphere. The Federation (particularly hegemonic old men like the ones who laughed off the Dublin colony drop in ZZ) tend to view them more as dangerous freaks of nature to be studied and weaponized.

Who's right? Well, as far as we know, nobody. Even Tomino himself has changed his stance on what a Newtype is, in recent interviews suggesting that they're simply people whose minds are open to all the possibilities of existence and remarking that everyone's a Newtype when they're born, but the harsh realities of growing up beat that out of most of us.
Where's the quote for that? And maybe that explains why the younger Newtypes are so jaded and the younger ones are more powerful? Oddly, that reference to Beltorchica's child having super newtype powers is starting to make sense...

Sounds to me though like Newtypes in Tomino's new regard are dreamers.

As per UC, it's true there are people out there who have freakish powers when connected with those psycommu. But it's true, the only real time they were studied outside the Flanagan institute and probably inside it was when they asked quote: "How do I create living weapons that have similar abilities?"

In any event, we've got new info hopefully coming from Reconguista.
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by Darkerangel » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:43 pm

Amion wrote:As per UC, it's true there are people out there who have freakish powers when connected with those psycommu. But it's true, the only real time they were studied outside the Flanagan institute and probably inside it was when they asked quote: "How do I create living weapons that have similar abilities?"

In any event, we've got new info hopefully coming from Reconguista.

Crap, I forgot all about that psycommu too. It amplifies their will.

Side question, I know that F91 had the Bio Computer, but in Victory was there any such thing as a psycommu via late U.C.?

Dark Duel wrote:Newtypes are, as I see it, both very real and very poorly understood.

I do to Dark Duel, granted I'm only on Chapter 8 of the novel.

But you got Amuro Ray who communicating with Lalah Sune in a "Newtype" state of mind (can't say telepathy, 'cause telepathy is unrealistic apparently) and then he throws a curve ball:


"<Yes, and it was a new person... It was you, and not the commander. This is too cruel.>

Amuro's next thought was like a dagger to Lalah's heart.
<I don't think a true Newtype ... would make a mistake like that.>

<How can you say such a cruel thing?! Why didn't you contact me?!>

With that, Amuro had a profound realization of his own basic weakness. And he lamented it deeply.
<Because. Because I don't think I'm really a Newtype.>"

I'm thinking to myself, how can you "not" believe you aren't a Newtype when you're communicating on a higher transcending level right now. And the only conclusion of me wrapping my head around that was just going back to the early U.C. and going on what you mentioned Dark Duel about not having a solid foundation of what they truly are. If you are being/transitioning into one, I can see how it would be a confusing state for you to be in, but I wouldn't fully deny it/ruling out "me" not being one if I can almost feel your presence to the point of our minds joining together as if one.
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by HellCat » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:17 am

I think this was something AGE put a clever spin on with X-Rounders. It's implied across the series that X-Rounders aren't really Newtypes as such because they're about stimulating a part of the brain which gives you psychic powers and heightened spacial awareness at the cost of being increasingly aggressive and losing sanity. My key evidence is the moon arc which most people at face value take as having no real point but look at what we get with Spriggan, an X-Rounder whose X-Region was over stimulated (uh oh, missus) and gains incredible psychic power at the cost of her sanity. This would actually seem to explain why other characters act the way they do including Desil (who was encouraged at a time when he most needed boundaries enforced), Flit (who sinks into increasing genocidal rage. Note he actually considers rejecting Grodek before he starts to awaken as an X-Rounder properly) and Zeheart (who begins to have visions of those who died because of him mocking him for being an absolute failure).
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by Strike Zero » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:05 pm

Darkerangel wrote:"<Yes, and it was a new person... It was you, and not the commander. This is too cruel.>

Amuro's next thought was like a dagger to Lalah's heart.
<I don't think a true Newtype ... would make a mistake like that.>

<How can you say such a cruel thing?! Why didn't you contact me?!>

With that, Amuro had a profound realization of his own basic weakness. And he lamented it deeply.
<Because. Because I don't think I'm really a Newtype.>"
What this says to me is that Amuro considers a true Newtype to be more than simply somebody with telepathic powers. What might this be? I'm not entirely sure, but apparently it's something more profound than having the ability to kill another person with a thought or to talk inside each other's heads. If I had to guess, I'd say his idea of a true nNewtype is closer to Tomino's idea of "one who is open to all possibilities." It goes beyond physical abilities andand is instead centered more on one's state of mind.
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:47 pm

The thing is there are really two different definitions of "newtypes" here. One is the one from Deikun's theory -- people who will bring about the end of conflict through perfect communication after humanity has moved into space. The other is what we see in the series itself -- people with the ability to communicate perfectly with each other (among other neat tricks that make them excellent killing machines).

The latter clearly exists, but the former definitely does not. Deikun (somehow) successfully predicted the rise of people with the ability to communicate perfectly, but he was wrong about their impact. They don't bring about the end of conflict, because misunderstanding is not the root of all conflict. It's the root of some conflict, and we see the perfect-communication ability reach across battle lines repeatedly (Amuro and Lalah, Kamille and Four, etc) -- but just as often we see that communication fail to result in any change (Amuro and Char, Judau and Haman, etc).
Dark Duel wrote:What I see as the reason for this is that there was never any real scientific effort to study and understand what Newtypes were, how they really differed from so-called Oldtypes, or the exact nature of their abilities and what the catalysts were that resulted in their development.
That's not true at all. Things like Zeon's Flanagan Institute or the Titan's Augusta Newtype Labs did exactly that. Where do you think the various newtype-use technology like the psycommu came from, if not scientific research on Newtypes?
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by toysdream » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:57 pm

Clearly the Universal Century has a bunch of people running around with psychic superpowers, which can be mechanically measured, applied, and reproduced. The question seems to be whether they're what Zeon Deikun meant when he talked about "Newtypes."

General Revil, who seems to be the biggest advocate of Deikun's ideas on the Federation side, says pretty much exactly that in Gundam III. "Newtypes... That means humans who live beyond war. It doesn't mean people with superpowers!"

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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by monster » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:13 pm

This whole subject kind of reminds me of the seeming discrepancy in Gundam SEED between Malchio's description of a person who has the SEED and the actual application of people with "SEED Mode." I mean, "SEED Mode" is not really an official term, right? So I kind of prefer the term Berserker mode based on Kira's conversation with Mu. It's possible that this mode and SEED are 2 different things, and that Kira just happened to have both. Granted, "SEED mode" has the seed animation. Or maybe what Malchio sensed as SEED in Kira is actually his Newtype-like "feature," which may tie into the whole UC Newtype ideal, especially if there's a shared timeline as per the Turn X manual.

Anyway, back to UC, terms can gain new meaning. So obviously, with all the conflicts in UC, the ideal meaning of Newtype may never be achieved, but the superpower meaning is a good enough differentiator, as long as it's not tied to some ideals. I kind of like Gundam X's treatment in this regard, which also can support the supposed shared timeline.

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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by HellCat » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:30 pm

Thing is, SEED Factor is one of those things where in interviews Fukuda has kind of shrugged and admitted he mainly used it because it was cool. We get that vague explanation about it being a state of awareness for those with the power to change the future but not much consistent. Heck, he even threw Newtypes in with Mu's bloodline and dicky danced on that too (remember Kira suddenly being one in Destiny?)

Newtypes within UC seem more clearly defined, with any mystery an intentional one to provoke audience discussion such as this very thread.
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by monster » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:52 pm

HellCat wrote:Heck, he even threw Newtypes in with Mu's bloodline and dicky danced on that too (remember Kira suddenly being one in Destiny?)
To be fair, Kira was already one in Gundam SEED, and given a possible genetic trait, Ulen might've seen something in Al's gene that interested him and caused him to alter Kira's gene as well.
Newtypes within UC seem more clearly defined, with any mystery an intentional one to provoke audience discussion such as this very thread.
Anyway, the point is, regardless of how much thought is put into the idea, the effect is the same in-story. In both cases, we have some expressed ideal and some expressed trait which may or may not be related to each other, but nevertheless are associated with a single term.

Actually, given Reconguista's connection to both UC and CC, and perhaps the entire franchise (depending on how far one wants to take the Dark History and Turn X's manual), maybe the ideal Newtype can only be achieved during/after the events of Turn A, but most likely not in UC.

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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by toysdream » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:19 pm

The SEED factor in Gundam Seed appears to be a discrete thing from Newtype-ish "spatial awareness" - it even has its own special effect when it activates. My working assumption about Kira is that he actually has every special power of any Gundam protagonist ever, probably including Domon's serene-mind hyper mode and Quatre's "heart of space". :-)

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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:10 pm

Honestly, I never saw why "spatial awareness" was treated as a newtype-level superpower. Unlike the UC timeline, CE's remote weapons aren't controlled by special newtype-only brainwaves, and the phrase "spatial awareness" basically means "being aware of where things are in relation to other things". In other words, one would expect spatial awareness to be a skill set more than a superpower -- if you can't keep track of where your gunbarrels (or dragoons, or whatever) are, then obviously you're never going to be able to shoot anything with them, but there's no reason why someone wouldn't be able to develop the ability just like any other skill.
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by sdwoodchuck » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:18 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:Honestly, I never saw why "spatial awareness" was treated as a newtype-level superpower. Unlike the UC timeline, CE's remote weapons aren't controlled by special newtype-only brainwaves, and the phrase "spatial awareness" basically means "being aware of where things are in relation to other things". In other words, one would expect spatial awareness to be a skill set more than a superpower -- if you can't keep track of where your gunbarrels (or dragoons, or whatever) are, then obviously you're never going to be able to shoot anything with them, but there's no reason why someone wouldn't be able to develop the ability just like any other skill.
I always got the impression that the "spacial awareness" they refer to in regards to Newtypes was more an awareness of what's going on around you, regardless of sensory input (for example, dodging that beam that you didn't see coming). Sort of a sixth sense for the physical space around you.

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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by toysdream » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:19 pm

It's treated as a fairly rare ability in the background material - after the Endymion Crater battle, Mwu is supposedly the only remaining pilot in the entire Earth Alliance with the necessary "powers of spatial awareness" required to operate remote weapons, at least until they discover Morgan Chevalier has these abilities too. On the ZAFT side, aside from Le Creuset, Courtney Hieronymus seems to be the only other pilot with these abilities. (And based on the animation, Mwu and Le Creuset seem to have other Newtype-y abilities - they can always sense each other's presence, and sometimes they even get warning flashes in battle.)

Once you get into Seed Destiny, this seems to be less of an issue. The kit manuals claim that advances in DRAGOON technology now allow people without these spatial awareness powers, such as Kira and Sting Oakley, to use them as well. But another possible interpretation is that Kira and Sting just happen to have these powers as well. With the exception of Prayer Reverie and, suddenly, Gai Murakumo in the latest Astray side story, I can't think of anybody else who seems to be able to use DRAGOONs or gunbarrels.

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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by Darkerangel » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:27 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:It's the root of some conflict, and we see the perfect-communication ability reach across battle lines repeatedly (Amuro and Lalah, Kamille and Four, etc) -- but just as often we see that communication fail to result in any change (Amuro and Char, Judau and Haman, etc).

Side Note: I thought Judau was able to reach Haman in a sense that it probably wasn't intentional, but he at the end of their battle managed to remind Haman of the person she once was. Now the outcome of that, I'm sure wasn't what he had in mind, but for a second I thought he managed to reach her with no interference unlike Loni from Unicorn.



In regards to SEED Mode/SEED factor, I thought Cagalli (however you spell her name) hinted and or solidified everyone either has it or can produce it. I also thought Destiny produce that there are two forms of activating it. One being the stress of protecting/saving/keeping someone you care about alive while the other one I can't remember.

Overall I am happy to know based off of what you all have said that I'm not crazy, that I am seeing more people with "special abilities" vs backpedaling going on, aka (Newtypes don't exist, even though you witness a asteroid being guided away from the earth by a Psycommu rainbow).

Thus generates my next question being if Newtypes were suppose to be something "Beyond" what we have encountered thus far, then what "are" or would be the people who we thought to be considered Newtypes be? So far it seem like based on Riddhe statement, Banagher became what he perceived a Newtype either is or should be.

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:The thing is there are really two different definitions of "newtypes" here. One is the one from Deikun's theory -- people who will bring about the end of conflict through perfect communication after humanity has moved into space. The other is what we see in the series itself -- people with the ability to communicate perfectly with each other (among other neat tricks that make them excellent killing machines).



To me it sounds like Setsuna would be what Deikun's theory is aimed at. As much power a Newtype can generate, they seem to be only able to communicate/connect with one specific person. Innovators, as Setsuna seems to be able to "connect" with more than one person. Having the presence of "perfect communication" to the point of understanding an alien life-form seemed more aligned.
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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by toysdream » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:51 pm

I think there's definitely a connection between the idea of Newtypes and Innovators. In the UC series, Newtypes are often described as "a reformation of humanity" (人類の革新). The Japanese term 革新, which fans often mistranslate as "revolution," literally means "reform" or "innovation." So somebody who helps brings this about would be an "innovator" (革新者).

Incidentally, 革新者 can also be translated as "pioneer" or "trailblazer," as in the title of the Gundam 00 movie. So conceptually, these are all pretty much the same thing in Japanese.

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Re: Newtypes...Theory or Fact?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:57 pm

toysdream wrote:The SEED factor in Gundam Seed appears to be a discrete thing from Newtype-ish "spatial awareness" - it even has its own special effect when it activates. My working assumption about Kira is that he actually has every special power of any Gundam protagonist ever, probably including Domon's serene-mind hyper mode and Quatre's "heart of space". :-)

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Well that's how his Gundam works, so it makes sense to me. :)
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