Gundam Seed Side Stories: When?

[AmuroNT1]

Well, the mook Gundam SEED Astray Archives 3D & Settings Documents Collection has a timeline that mentions Frame Astrays and Vs Astray, but it's a lot fuzzier. All it really tells us is that Frame Astrays starts shortly after Cagalli is "kidnapped" from her wedding, which is the same time as Rondo Mina's "Declaration of the Heavens", and ends somewhere during the events of Destiny. Vs Astray is even more vague; it simply starts as soon as Frame ends and carries on past the end of the Second Valentine War (or whatever the eff it's called).

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/ ... 0f3088.jpg (Apologies for the resizing...I really need to get an Imgur account.)

I also note, with a wry sense of amusement, that the black bar at the bottom of the page says "To the Movie!"

[balofo]

Nice, I distributed that scan and didn't even recheck it

BTW according to Ootori manual the SEED wars are now called 第一次連合・プラント大戦

With this there might a chance the VS Astray and Destiny Astray B/R compilations might have an updated timeline

[toysdream]

Well, it definitely seems like nobody agrees when Frame Astrays takes place! So my initial question about the sequence of the stories wasn't a foolish one, was it?

It looks like there are a few different books covering Frame Astrays, Vs Astray, and the new series. I'd order copies just in case, but there are so many of them; I was hoping somebody had seen them so they could recommend the right ones.

-- Mark

[balofo]

Well, it definitely seems like nobody agrees when Frame Astrays takes place! So my initial question about the sequence of the stories wasn't a foolish one, was it?

It looks like there are a few different books covering Frame Astrays, Vs Astray, and the new series. I'd order copies just in case, but there are so many of them; I was hoping somebody had seen them so they could recommend the right ones.

-- Mark

That's a LOT of money. Better save for something better if we don't know if they have an updated timeline or other useful info.

Mark have you tried looking for reviews on them or even a japanese site that deals with the SEED timeline?

Sadly I only have access to chinese scans of the original magazine runs for all the Astray series

Edit: found the index for the 1st Destiny R compilation, has a section called Astray Series Guide(2 pages).

http://www.ms-plus.com/images_item/59000/59599_1.jpg

[Deacon Blues]

Okay, some jumbled information, but here goes:

Delta Astray

- Gate.01 takes place during Phase 09 when the opening of hostilities between the Earth and the PLANTs occurs.
- Gate.02 and Gate.03 take place before Phase 14.
- Gate.04 and Gate.05 take place before Phase 31.
- Gate.06 and Gate.07 take place between Phase 31 and Phase 46.
- Gate.08 takes place at Phase 47 with the annoucement of the Destiny Plan.
- Gate.09 and Gate.10 take place following Phase 47.

Stargazer

Stage-1 and Stage-2 (attack on the civilian camp) take place between Phase 6 and 9.
- Stage-2, the death of Mudi happens around Phase 31.
- Stage-3, slightly overlaps with Phase 46 with the attack on Trojan station. Incidentally, the magazine lists it as バウトロヤ (Bautro--whatever)

I can squeeze in Destiny Astray in relation to all these events too if need be

Also, I have the Re:Master series for Astray and Destiny Astray if you want the chapters reordered. I wouldn't put much stock in the new Astray series chapters being in order. One of the new Re:Parts has Lowe talking about Selene and the Stargazer shortly after the fall of Junius Seven.


BTW, Mark, you do know you put together a timeline back in like 2006 for the main Astray series, right?

[toysdream]

Now compiling data. Stay tuned!

Incidentally, I just remembered something from the Astray Green Frame kit manual: Barry Ho apparently receives the Green Frame from Rondo Mina Sahaku after she issues her "Declaration of the Heavens." (It's part of Mina's shiny new "protecting those who follow their own beliefs" policy.) So Frame Astrays clearly has to take place after the end of the Destiny Astray comic, not before the start of Seed Destiny as the dates in that one book scan claimed!

The scan AmuroNT1 turned up, however, seems to have things exactly right. Delta Astray starts right after "Break the World," then war is declared, then Mina makes her declaration, and then Frame Astrays starts.

As for Destiny Astray B, we know most of it takes place before the start of Frame Astrays (as discussed above), but that's about it. I wonder, is it before or after the Armory One attack (and thus the start of the Seed Destiny TV series)?

-- Mark

[balofo]

Didn't the GOUF lose the place of next generation MP unit to the ZAKU? That can explain Elsa having a GOUF so early

[toysdream]

I looked at the info on the GOUF again - especially the kit manuals - and it says that it was rejected in favor of the ZAKU, but due to its high performance they produced a few prototype units for testing purposes. (I note that Elza's GOUF Crusher is labeled as a ZGMF-X2000 variant, i.e. the prototype version.) So no continuity problems there.

-- Mark

[toysdream]

So anyway, I'm almost done compiling the Astray timeline translation. (It's currently in an Excel spreadsheet, so I still need to HTML it.) I've also been pondering the mysterious timing of Seed Destiny.


Aside from the date of October 2, C.E. 73, for the Armory One attack, and the general consensus that the war ends some time in C.E. 74, there's one other date given in the show itself. According to Meer Campbell's diary, her bandages are removed on October 11, and it's only after this that she meets Dullindal for the first time. When she does get to meet the Chairman, he's apparently upset about the fall of Junius Seven, which is news to Meer. So the scene in episode 7 where Dullindal listens to the initial damage reports, accompanied by a mysterious girl who later turns out to be Meer, may well be their first meeting.

In this case, it seems like the "Break The World" incident can't happen any earlier than October 12. It's a little surprising that so much time passes between the Armory One attack and the fall of Junius Seven, but there we have it. I took some notes on the events of episodes 7-10, and by my reckoning at least seven days pass between Break The World and the Alliance's declaration of war (and accompanying nuclear attack). As I noted above, during the previous war nine days passed between the inciting event and Bloody Valentine, so maybe that's a reasonable interval here as well. In any case, I'd estimate the declaration of war would be somewhere around October 20.

After this, ZAFT gathers a bunch of reinforcements, leaves them waiting in Earth orbit for at least a day or so, and finally drops them on Earth to reinforce the Carpentaria and Gibraltar bases. (This landing operation is dubbed "Operation Spear of Twilight".) As the reinforcements land, the Minerva leaves Orb, breaks through the Alliance fleet, and sets sail for Carpentaria. And meanwhile, Athrun leaves the PLANTs and flies to Orb in his shiny new Saviour Gundam, arriving just after Kira abducts Cagalli from her wedding ceremony.

Here again, we can crib dates from the previous war. On May 1, C.E. 71, the PLANT Supreme Council rejected Malchio's peace plan and thus committed itself to Operation Spit Break. On May 5, the operation was formally launched, but delayed three days due to a last-minute change of target. Also on May 5, Kira stole the Freedom and flew to Earth, arriving three days later.

All in all, then, the events of episodes 1-15 probably bring us up to the end of October. As we head into November, ZAFT begins its terrestrial counteroffensive, and the Minerva is dispatched to Eurasia to blow up a bunch of mobile armors and fight the Destroy Gundam. This, it seems, is also where Frame Astrays begins.


What about the ending? As discussed above, the "C.E. 73" in the title of Stargazer and Delta Astray suggests that these stories actually wrap up before the beginning of C.E. 74, which means that the rest of the war - roughly episodes 16-48 - only lasts two months. That's not actually impossible, and it makes a nice change from the usual Gundam series timelines, which tend to be streeeeeeeetched out to a ridiculous degree.

In particular, the fact that Dullindal announces a "Destiny Plan" which will save humanity and then relocates to a space fortress portentously named "Messiah" makes it tempting to put the announcement of the Destiny Plan on December 25. That gives us just enough time for the post-Destiny Plan chapters of Delta Astray...

As for VS Astray, I note that the covers of the Dengeki Hobby story collections say that this story also takes place (or at least begins) during C.E. 73. Since VS Astray takes place after Frame Astrays, I guess this means that Frame Astrays would have to wrap up before the end of the year. The Turn Delta is actually wrecked early in VS Astray, and its parts are used to complete the Red Frame Kai, so at this point the story must have passed the end of Delta Astray as well.


EDIT: Found another date reference. In episode 17, just before the Minerva arrives at the Mahamul base in the Persian Gulf, the Archangel crew listen to a news report that begins "In response to the Atlantic Federation president's statement on the 18th, Chairman Gadouard of the South African Community yesterday..."

Here, we don't have a month specified, nor is it clear which statement they're talking about. One possibility is that this is the Atlantic Federation's de facto declaration of war in episode 9, which came just before the nuclear attack on the PLANTs. (Athrun's meeting with Dullindal and his dinner with Meer Campbell, depicted in episode 10, would take place on the following day.) Since we already know that Meer meets Dullindal after October 11, this would mean that the events of episodes 7-10 (the Break the World incident through Athrun's meeting with Dullindal) take place over a span of no more than one week.

The other possibility is that the Atlantic Federation president has gone on to make other public statements, and that the one being discussed here was made on November 18. If other world leaders have gone on make their own statements in response, and Gadouard's statement was made the day before this news report, then it must already be November 20 or later by the time the Minerva reaches Mahamul.

That's a pretty big range of dates - by my reckoning, these two scenarios suggest about a two-week difference in the timing of events, one being very condensed and the other being rather expanded.

-- Mark

[Deacon Blues]

Gundam Fact File 150 lists the Destiny Plan announcement taking place in C.E.74, so I think Xmas for that would be out. It also puts Phantom Pain's assault on Toroya station in the same year.

[toysdream]

On the other hand, the fairly detailed timeline in The Gundam Chronicles Ver.2 has everything up through Seed Destiny episode 47 and the end of Stargazer and Delta Astray taking place in C.E. 73, presumably for the title-based reasons I noted above. Since neither Gundam Fact File nor The Gundam Chronicles gives us month and day to go with their assumptions about the years, let alone any kind of sourcing or explanation, I think it remains something of an open question. (Then again, I'm not impressed with the quality of research in the Fact File series, so I may be biased.)

In the meantime, let's teach the controversy! We report, you decide!

-- Mark

[Deacon Blues]

But then where does this publication get their information from? I'm guessing they all have to source something somewhere... or someone has to sign off on it 0_o; Bah... damn inconsistencies

[toysdream]

The Cosmic Era timeline in The Gundam Chronicles Ver.2 is by Akiyuki Okazaki, who writes the Data Gundam feature for Gundam Ace. This book also includes Okazaki's timelines for Turn A Gundam and the One Year War, and all these timelines are labeled with episode and/or publication references (which were omitted from the Data Gundam versions). As a source, I'd say I have about 200% more confidence in Okazaki than in the anonymous hacks who do the Fact File series.

-- Mark

[Deacon Blues]

I didn't think he was the definitive authority on all things Gundam. Still makes me wonder of Morosawa can just swoop in and be like "no no no!" and change it. You'd think they publications would have some sort of oversight. Sadly, I can't track down who writes the stuff for either the Fact Files or the Perfect Files... and here I was creating mecha and character profiles off of them :S

[toysdream]

Okazaki kind of is the current authority as far as Sunrise is concerned - even though he's an outside freelancer, the Sunrise folks I work with have been known to refer to him as a kind of "Doctor Gundam" (ガンダム博士). I don't always find his theories entirely convincing, and I think he functions more as an archivist than a content-creator, but as far as credentials go they're pretty good ones. As ever, it's useful to know one's sources!

I don't actually know where the original Cosmic Era timeline came from, though it may be noted in one of the books. Looking at it again, I can see places where it conflicts a bit with the animation, and there are a few of the arbitrary gaps you find in a lot of these things. But for a Gundam TV series timeline, it's definitely one of the better efforts.

EDIT: Aha. According to Hobby Japan's Gundam Seed MSV book, the Cosmic Era timeline was mainly compiled by scriptwriter Hiroyuki Yoshino, who played a large role in the Gundam Seed world setting. Yoshino also worked on Seed Destiny, but as far as I can tell he never updated the timeline to include the new show, and that's why there's no official consensus about when anything takes place.

-- Mark

[toysdream]

Still pondering the question of the Seed Destiny timeline. At this point it's a digression on top of a distraction on top of a diversion, but sometimes you have to follow these things wheresoever they lead you. And I think I'm starting to reach some useful, albeit tentative, conclusions.


Start & End Dates: As we all know, the Armory One heist takes place on October 2, C.E. 73. The post-war treaty between Earth and the PLANTs is signed in C.E. 74, because it says so onscreen. Everything in between is up for grabs.


Break The World: Can't be any earlier than October 11, because Meer Campbell's bandages don't come off until then. We can actually pin the incident down to a specific time of day; it's sunset in Central Europe when the first fragments hit, which means it's about 17:00 UTC. At this point, it's night in Orb (which is about 12 hours ahead of UTC) and morning in Monument Valley (where we also see fragments hitting).


Declaration of War: Meer's first meeting with Chairman Dullindal, where they listen to initial damage reports, must be the following day because it's now daylight in the PLANTs. Dullindal subsequently makes a public speech; by this point it's once again sunset in Greece, so this is probably about 24 hours after the impacts. The Minerva sails into harbor in Orb, another night passes, and then Athrun takes off for the PLANTs. Assuming these events are all being shown in chronological order, and taking time zones into account, Athrun would head into space no earlier than three days after the impacts.

As Athrun reaches the PLANTs - a trip for which the Gundam Seed official timeline consistently allows three days - the Atlantic Federation president is making a big speech outlining his grievances against the PLANTs. An Earth Alliance fleet departs the moon at this point - a trip which also normally takes three days - and ends up launching a full-scale attack on the PLANTs in the afternoon or evening. The attack is accompanied by another announcement from the Federation president which effectively serves as a declaration of war.

The next day, Athrun meets with Dullindal, and it seems like at least one more day passes before the PLANT Supreme Council decides how to respond. ZAFT deploys forces in Earth orbit, and they sit there for at least a couple of days while the Minerva hastily prepares to leave Orb. As the Minerva departs, the ZAFT forces land at Gibraltar and Carpentaria to reinforce the ZAFT garrisons, and the terrestrial war begins in earnest.

The basic procedure here is actually a lot like Operation Spit Break. During the previous war, the ZAFT forces deployed in Earth orbit four days after the Supreme Council rejected the Olbani peace plan and launched the operation; three more days passed before they actually landed at JOSH-A.


The Archangel Escapes: As ZAFT lands its forces, in the so-called "Operation Spear of Twilight," Athrun leaves the PLANTs in the Saviour Gundam and flies to Earth to join the Minerva. (Just like Kira's flight to Earth in the Freedom, this should take three days.) Athrun arrives just after the Archangel's escape and Cagalli's abduction. Based on the animation, Athrun leaves the PLANTs on the same day the Minerva leaves Orb and arrives on Earth on the same day the Archangel departs, so these two events should be three days apart.


Tentative Timeline: So here's a first pass at episodes 1-15, roughly the first cours. Most of these dates could easily be pushed a day or so in either direction, but I think it's a reasonable estimate.

October 2: Armory One attack.
October 12: Break The World incident.
October 14: Minerva arrives in Orb Union.
October 15: Athrun leaves for the PLANTs.
October 18: Athrun arrives in the PLANTs. Atlantic Federation president makes speech. Earth Alliance fleet departs moon.
October 20: Atlantic Federation declares war. Earth Alliance fleet attacks PLANTs.
October 21: Athrun meets with Chairman Dullindal.
October 22: PLANT Supreme Council approves Operation Spear of Twlight.
October 25: ZAFT forces deployed in Earth orbit.
October 27: ZAFT lands forces on Earth. Minerva escapes Orb. Athrun leaves PLANTs.
October 30: Archangel escapes Orb. Athrun arrives on Earth.

Even allowing for the shortest possible time intervals, then, I think we've definitely reached the end of October at this point. This is important for the following reasons...


Meer's Concert Tour: Meer Campbell is on hand to say goodbye to Athrun when he leaves the PLANTs. At some point after this, she begins a tour of ZAFT bases to perform for the soldiers; the Archangel crew are watching footage of one such performance in episode 17. The news broadcasts they watch in this episode also refer to "the Atlantic Federation president's statement on the 18th," which is another reason I placed his initial denunciation of the PLANTs at October 18 in the above timeline.

As of episode 26, Meer's concert tour has just ended, and the news coverage says that the tour began "the previous month." The main point of all that timeline stuff above is to establish that Meer's tour really couldn't have begun until November, which means that as of episode 26 we must be in December of C.E. 73. This actually lines up nicely with the traditional rule of thumb that one cours of 13 episodes equates to one month of story time.


Lacus on the Moon: Fast forward to episode 46 (episode 45 of the Remaster edition). In this episode, the Archangel docks at the lunar city of Copernicus, and Lacus is happy to have some R&R. Between the Archangel and the Eternal, she says, she's been aboard ships for "months."

Since Lacus says "months" plural, not just "more than a month," a minimum of two months should have passed since the Archangel's escape from Orb. And since that couldn't have happened until the end of October, I think it's almost certain that the Archangel's visit to Copernicus - swiftly followed by the death of Meer and the announcement of the Destiny Plan - must take place in C.E. 74.


When exactly does the calendar turn over? The Gundam Fact File series implies it's during the Destroy Gundam's rampage through Eastern Europe, which strikes me as an unreasonably late date for that event. Akiyuki Okazaki thinks C.E. 74 begins after the announcement of the Destiny Plan, which strikes me as incompatible with the animation evidence.

If we wanted to contrive things so that Stargazer takes place entirely within the year of C.E 73, as per its title, I think that's still feasible. As of the last episode of Stargazer, Lord Djibril has fled into space but is apparently still alive, and Dullindal hasn't yet announced his Destiny Plan. Basically, then, we're looking at somewhere between episodes 43 and 45 of the TV series (42-44 in the Remaster edition). My hunch is that C.E. 74 begins right after that.

-- Mark

[balofo]

The remaining pages from the BD booklet 1 and 4

http://i.imgur.com/ZMzZcBe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OqSPYoQ.jpg

[Chris]

When exactly does the calendar turn over? The Gundam Fact File series implies it's during the Destroy Gundam's rampage through Eastern Europe, which strikes me as unreasonably late. Akiyuki Okazaki thinks it's after the announcement of the Destiny Plan, which strikes me as incompatible with the animation evidence.

If we wanted to contrive things so that Stargazer takes place entirely within the year of C.E 73, as per its title, I think that's still feasible. As of the last episode of Stargazer, Lord Djibril has fled into space but is apparently still alive, and Dullindal hasn't yet announced his Destiny Plan. Basically, then, we're looking at somewhere between episodes 43 and 45 of the TV series (42-44 in the Remaster edition). My hunch is that C.E. 74 begins right after that.

I'm a little confused by these last two paragraphs. You say that you think the Destroy's rampage seems unreasonably late for the start of of C.E. 74 and then peg it the range of episodes 43-45. However, the Destroy's rampage occurred in episodes 31-32. Did you mean early instead of late? Also, we don't have to try to cram all of Stargazer into C.E. 73 just because of its title. After all, Gundam 0080 ends up spending all of about 5 minutes in 0080, despite its title.

[toysdream]

I'm a little confused by these last two paragraphs. You say that you think the Destroy's rampage seems unreasonably late for the start of of C.E. 74 and then peg it the range of episodes 43-45. However, the Destroy's rampage occurred in episodes 31-32. Did you mean early instead of late?

Yeah, that was really confusingly phrased, wasn't it? I've reworded this is say that C.E. 74 strikes me as an unreasonably late date for that event.

Also, we don't have to try to cram all of Stargazer into C.E. 73 just because of its title. After all, Gundam 0080 ends up spending all of about 5 minutes in 0080, despite its title.

Certainly true! I think Okazaki was trying to get it to fit - and Delta Astray as well, since he squeezes all of its events into C.E. 73 on his otherwise dateless timeline. But I don't think the latter is consistent with the timing clues in the animation, and that calls the whole effort into question.

-- Mark

[Evex]

I'm going to try and insert some dates from Delta Astray based on Mark's current timeline. Unfortunately my source is the zeonic translation of vol.1 of the series, so my accuracy might be off by a bit.

So let me begin.

When the martian transport ship arrives in the earth sphere. The DSSD crew member makes mention about the tension the break the world incident has caused. Agnes meets durandel and then is informed by Issac about the alliance declaration of war, fleet launching from the moon base, and then sorties into battle after getting permission from durandel. Assuming the point of entry was three days away from plants or even a few hours. This means Agnes and crew ether arrived inside the earth sphere October 15, or on October 18. This is what I have the time line looking like now.


October 2: Armory One attack.
October 12: Break The World incident.
October 14: Minerva arrives in Orb Union.
October 15: Athrun leaves for the PLANTs.
October 18: Athrun arrives in the PLANTs. Atlantic Federation president makes
speech. Earth Alliance fleet departs moon. Martian Delegation meets durandel.
October 20: Atlantic Federation declares war. Earth Alliance fleet attacks
PLANTs. Agnes in Delta Astray participates in defense of PLANTS
October 21: Athrun meets with Chairman Dullindal.
October 22: PLANT Supreme Council approves Operation Spear of Twlight.
October 25: ZAFT forces deployed in Earth orbit.
October 27: ZAFT lands forces on Earth. Minerva escapes Orb. Athrun leaves
PLANTs.
October 30: Archangel escapes Orb. Athrun arrives on Earth.

The next part is a bit trickier since, there are no actual events to reference. Agnes goes to meet with the earth alliance delegation, but is instead greeted by the 81st independent unit, or in short Sven's unit. He is then interrogated about the number of neutron stampeders Z.A.F.T. has. This most likely has the event happening some where between October 21 through October 27.

This last part concludes what information I have. Issac tells Agnes and Nahe that the minerva was forced out of orb, and then attacked by the alliance. The group then arrives in orb and meets with cagalli. Agnes and Nahe then watch the wedding from a morgenroute maintenance hangar. Agnes tries to pursue kira but is stopped by mina in the gold frame amatsu. Agnes and Nahe meet Mina and Reverend Malchio the next day. this is what the time line looks like now. I say the meet Mina and Malchio based on Nahe using the phrase the other day, which suggest the wedding incident happened the day before.


October 2: Armory One attack.
October 12: Break The World incident.
October 14: Minerva arrives in Orb Union.
October 15: Athrun leaves for the PLANTs.
October 18: Athrun arrives in the PLANTs. Atlantic Federation president makes
speech. Earth Alliance fleet departs moon. Martian Delegation meets durandel.
October 20: Atlantic Federation declares war. Earth Alliance fleet attacks
PLANTs. Agnes in Delta Astray participates in defense of PLANTS
October 21: Athrun meets with Chairman Dullindal.
October 22: PLANT Supreme Council approves Operation Spear of Twlight.
October 25: ZAFT forces deployed in Earth orbit.
October 27: ZAFT lands forces on Earth. Minerva escapes Orb. Athrun leaves
PLANTs.
October 28: Mars Delegation on route to Orb
October 29: Mars Delegation arrives in Orb meets with Cagalli
October 30: Archangel escapes Orb. Athrun arrives on Earth. Agnes in Delta Astray tries to pursue kira yamato is stooped by Mina.
October 31: Mars delegation meets with Mina and Reverend Malchio. Mars Delegation forced out of orb. Delta Astray shot down by join alliance and orb task force lead by Sven, somewhere off the shores of orb.

This is all the information I can provide on this subject due to the nature and limited amount of information I have. Even then I'm unable to place when the meeting with the alliance happens or when Agnes and co actually arrive in the earth sphere. I will leave you guys with what notes I have taken to arrive at the dates I used in the time line.

Agnes and Nahe meet with durandal
After meeting Meer passes them and is mistaken for lacus clyne
Informed of the earth alliance declaration of war
Agnes launches into the battle
Kira and Lacus watch nuclear explosions from earth

Agnes meets with earth alliance deligation is a trap by blue cosmos phantom pain unit. Questioned about how many neutron stampeders Z.A.F.T has.
Agnes group gets into combat with the Strike Noir, Blu Duel, Verde Buster

On way to orb Isasac tells agnes about the minerva being forced out of orb, and being attacked by the alliance. Mentions treaty between orb and alliance.
The three ship alliance aslo has the nickname "songstresses cavalry"
Agnes and Nahe meet with Caggalli
Agnes decides to stay for the wedding ceremony
Agnes and Nahe are shown the Murasame. They are surpised orb has a variable mobile suit.
Agnes and Nahe watches wedding ceremony from morgenroute maintance dock, freedom"kidnaps" cagalli.
Mina in the Gold Frame Amatsu stops Agnes from pursuing the freedom
Agnes and Nahe meets with mina and malcheor the next day, is forced out of orb due to phantom pain invoking the treaty. Joint task force lead by Sven ambushes Martian delegation in waters outside orb, Delta Astray shot down by Sven.