What happens between ZZ and CCA?

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kobiyashi
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What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by kobiyashi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:25 pm

I'm having trouble digging up info about this, particularly related to what Char was doing and how Neo Neo Zeon came about. I know it's covered in Hi-Streamer and Beltorchika's Children, but those don't seem to have been translated or (as far as my searches have shown) even synopsized. So what's the deal? Can someone describe it to me, or is there a resource I haven't found?

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AmuroNT1
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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:29 pm

There's a manga called Under the Gundam: Double-Fake, which deals with a Neo Zeon decoy operation shortly before the events of CCA, but you'd need someone with better knowledge to fill in the details.
Sakuya: "Whatever. Stop lying and give up your schemes, now."
Yukari: (Which lies and schemes are she talking about? It's hard to keep track of them all...)

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toysdream
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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by toysdream » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:12 pm

Beltorchika Children doesn't really address this - the main source of info would be Hi-Streamer. There's some background info in Entertainment Bible 3, based on Hi-Streamer, and the standard UC timeline (which is based on the Entertainment Bible timelines) reflects this too.

I'll summarize when I have a minute...

-- Mark

kobiyashi
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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by kobiyashi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:14 pm

Thanks Mark! I look forward to it.

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Angelo Sauper
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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by Angelo Sauper » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:52 pm

While you're on the topic, do you have any details to share about the Char's Return game book?

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:41 pm

The recent PS3 game Gundam Side Stories may also have some information, at least one section of the story seems to take place around early U.C. 0090s, including a Geara Doga described to be a prototype.

On the other hand, it might also be worth checking out the MSV-R manga which takes place on U.C. 0089.

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by toysdream » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:13 pm

Okay, I took a look at EB 3 and am now browsing though Hi-Streamer again...


Entertainment Bible 3
This book covers Gundam Sentinel and Double Fake as well as CCA. The main antagonists in Double Fake are the NSP (New Summer Project), an anti-Federation movement using leftover Axis mobile suits, but it turns out they're being puppeteered by what will later become Char's Neo Zeon. The EB3 timeline says that the Neo Zeon forces enter combat on December 15, U.C. 0090. (In the comic, Illia Pazom from ZZ is acting as captain of the Rewloola at this point, and they already have Geara Dogas and Jagd Dogas running around.)

EB 3 connects this to Hi-Streamer, citing the NSP and the EGUM (from Hi-Streamer) as examples of anti-Federation movements, secretly encouraged by Neo Zeon, which became active in U.C. 0090. On March 21, U.C. 0090, the Londo Bell unit is reorganized to deal with these movements. At this point, the vessels of the Federation Space Force have been dispersed among the Sides and the asteroids around the lunar orbit to act as garrison forces and suppress unrest, so Londo Bell is the only force that can move freely and keep an eye on everything else (such as empty colonies and shoal zones).

As per EB 3's timeline, there are hints of a Neo Zeon attack on the Federation Forces on December 13, U.C. 0092. That's probably around the time Hi-Streamer starts, then.

On December 22, U.C. 0092, Char announces his occupation of the Sweetwater refugee colony. Most of the Federation government assumes that he merely intends to negotiate for Sweetwater's independence, but the minister John Bauer (who previously pushed through the mass production of the Jegan) orders the reorganization of Londo Bell on December 25. Bright Noa, who had been commanding a Garuda on Earth, is placed in command of the Ra Cailum and transferred to Londo Bell. As far as mobile suits, they only have Jeddas and Jegans, and the Federation appears to have sealed away all the surviving Gundam types. The Re-GZ is given to them as a stopgap, and development of the Nu Gundam begins.

EB 3's timeline says that Char effectively declares war against the Federation during an interview program on February 27, U.C. 0093, and his fleet departs Sweetwater on March 3.

EB 3 doesn't offer as much information on what the Neo Zeon side has been up to. It does say, however, that Neo Zeon concentrated all its technological efforts on completing the Alpha Azieru, and didn't have enough resources left over to develop a Newtype mobile suit for Char's own use. Thus they outsourced this job to Anaheim's Granada factory, which developed and produced the Jagd Doga and Sazabi.


B-CLUB
There's apparently a UC timeline in issue 50 of Bandai's old B-CLUB magazine with some relevant dates, especially for the development of specific mobile suits. This is one of a handful of important publications I've never been able to get my hands on, but here's what I've been able to piece together from Japanese fan sites...

March 18, U.C. 0090: Anaheim rolls out first unit of AMS-119 Geara Doga.
May 5, U.C. 0090: Combat deployment of RGM-89 Jegan begins.
June 3, U.C. 0091: RGZ-91 Re-GZ completed.
August 15, U.C. 0091: Ra Cailum launched.
July 9, U.C. 0092: First unit of MSN-03 Jagd Doga completed.
August 1, U.C. 0092: MSN-04 Sazabi completed.


Hi-Streamer
I'm skimming through the Hi-Streamer novels again right now. As the story starts, the Londo Bell consists of a single ship - the Ra Zaim - which is performing an inspection of the Sweetwater refugee colony. They clash a couple of times with the local resistance group EGUM, and begin hearing rumors about the imminent return of "Char Deikun". The reader, of course, already knows that Char is waiting in the wings and coordinating his activities with EGUM's leader. As of halfway through the first book, the Londo Bell pilots are just beginning another battle against the EGUM leader's mobile suit, and Char hasn't yet revealed himself.

More shortly...

-- Mark

kobiyashi
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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by kobiyashi » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:10 pm

Hmm, pretty interesting stuff. Looking forward to the rest! Char's mindset during that period would be especially cool to hear about.

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by toysdream » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:12 pm

The "Char Deikun" thing was interesting - it suggests an attempt to reconcile his fame as "Char Aznable" with his father's legacy. This is how the EGUM members refer to him, and apparently it's the first time the Londo Bell have heard the term. I'll be reading closely to see if they carry that through the rest of the novel.

-- Mark

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by kobiyashi » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:15 pm

I can understand Char's mindset as of Zeta and as of CCA, but I've never been able to reconcile how he goes from one to the other.

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:10 pm

kobiyashi wrote:I can understand Char's mindset as of Zeta and as of CCA, but I've never been able to reconcile how he goes from one to the other.
Well, one thing that gets pointed to on occasion is the semi-obscure Zeta Gundam game for the original Playstation. At the end of Quattro's campaign, we get to see him escaping the ruined Hyaku-Shiki, as well as him sensing Kamille getting brain-fried by Scirocco, which makes him very upset.

In context, recall Char's belief that the "old generation" (namely, his) was too greedy and set in its ways to change, and that it would fall to Kamille and those like him to move towards the kind of peace Zeon Deikun wanted. Kamille getting messed up by Scirocco may have been the symbolic "death" of Quattro's ideal, showing that the new generation would never be able to escape the grasp of their hegemonic forebears and that true change would never happen.

The cutscene ends with a shot of Char in his Neo Zeon uniform, and looking very unhappy about the whole thing. Put in light of the above, it suggests that rather than only wanting his final duel with Amuro, Char saw the Axis drop as the last-ditch effort to FORCE humanity to change and find peace, because as Kamille's fate showed him, there was no way they were going to go in that direction without a metaphorical gun against their heads.

What really adds to this is an extremely subtle call-back that my friend NewtypeS3 noticed. In Zeta Gundam, we have a scene of Amuro and Char having a civil conversation over drinks, in which Char suggests that the "new era" will require sacrifice. Amuro half-jokingly says "Maybe being a sacrifice is in your blood", and they clink glasses. Now jump ahead to Char's Counterattack, and we have Char's late-night contemplation; if you notice, he's staring very intently at his liquor - which seems to be the exact same drink, in the exact same style of glass, possibly suggesting that he was thinking about that earlier conversation.

In other words, the Zeta game posits that Char had simply given up on anything resembling hopeful idealism for a bright future and decided that turning himself into the most hated man in history was a small price to pay, a plotline used many times even in just mecha anime - just ask Chirico Cuvie, Treize Khushrenada, and Lelouch vi Britannia. :)
Sakuya: "Whatever. Stop lying and give up your schemes, now."
Yukari: (Which lies and schemes are she talking about? It's hard to keep track of them all...)

-Touhou 07.5 ~ Immaterial and Missing Power

kobiyashi
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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by kobiyashi » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:33 pm

I'd never heard about that! That's pretty compelling, whether it's "legitimate" or not.

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by toysdream » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 pm

It's also possible that, aside from the personal tragedy of Kamille, Char noticed how little effect the AEUG's "victory" over the Titans actually had. If the AEUG was your grand hope for reforming the Federation from within, I imagine you'd be pretty disappointed with how it worked out.

I note that pretty much every source we've looked at has Char setting his Neo Zeon project in motion by U.C. 0090. This seems to have been a relatively long-term plan, and one that got started pretty soon after the collapse of Haman's Neo Zeon.

-- Mark

kobiyashi
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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by kobiyashi » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:26 pm

The fact that it was geared up so (relatively) quickly after ZZ is something that was always missing from the sources I was looking at, so that's quite helpful in understanding the transition as well.

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by excalibur2008 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:05 am

toysdream wrote:It's also possible that, aside from the personal tragedy of Kamille, Char noticed how little effect the AEUG's "victory" over the Titans actually had. If the AEUG was your grand hope for reforming the Federation from within, I imagine you'd be pretty disappointed with how it worked out.
Well they didn't have a lot of time to fix anything before the Neo Zeon showed up and as usual gave the corrupt parts of the federation their justification for being jerks as well as an easy way to discredit descent via lumping them in with the Zeon.

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by toysdream » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:07 pm

Okay, turns out all the good stuff is at the end of the first Hi-Streamer volume. In a nutshell...

After a couple of skirmishes with EGUM, the Londo Bell unit (which as you'll recall consists of the single ship Ra Zaim) withdraws from Sweetwater. Amuro is convinced that Char is back, but he hasn't been able to get any leads about his location. One thing they've learned, though, is that the Federation has lost track of the Island 1-type colony that was used as a construction facility when the refugee colony Sweetwater was being assembled.

Meanwhile, Char has gathered a small fleet (three ships) in preparation to take over Sweetwater. He's already been negotiating with the Sweetwater government to ensure a bloodless takeover. With a few hours to go before the occupation commences, he decides to take the Sazabi on a test flight, based on his hunch that he'll run into Amuro. At this point, the Sazabi is almost complete, but it doesn't have its final cockpit - instead it has a temporary two-seater cockpit in the standard chest location, so that Nanai can ride along as backup. (I guess this implies the psycho-frame isn't installed yet, but the novel doesn't say.)

As Char prepares for his test flight, we get a quick summary of his post-One Year War adventures. Let me paraphrase...

After the defeat of Zeon, Char hid himself for a while in the asteroid belt, conspiring with Haman Karn and others to raise the flag of Zeon again. He went back to Earth to serve as an advance scout for Haman's Earth invasion and observe the internal state of the Federation government, but when he learned of the Titans' rebellion, he teamed up with Amuro and friends to eliminate them. And when Haman, "a true believer in the restoration of Zeon," eventually returned, she went it alone (an odd turn of phrase, but that's how the novel puts it). Char decided that, if the Federation government underwent continuing turmoil as a result of Haman's actions, that would be all for the best and so he stayed on the sidelines. As a result of "Haman's Crazy War," the Federation Forces were exhausted, and the Federation government was eager to think that the Zeon remnants had been wiped out and peace was restored. This complacency gave Char the time he needed.

Anyways, Char takes the Sazabi out for a spin and runs into Amuro's Jedda. Amuro is hopelessly outmatched, but Char really just wants to talk.

Amuro is incredulous when Char hails him on the radio. Char scoffs, "Could I really lose my life in a fight with a woman like Haman Karn?" Amuro tells him that Kamille ended up going mad, and Char replies, "Frailty isn't a virtue! Amuro, look at the masses! Look at the bureaucracy! Are they mad!? No matter what happens, they stay calm and go on with their lives! People who have ability, and think that frailty is a virtue, will be swallowed up by the masses." Amuro snarks back with "So is that why you didn't show up until now? Were you hiding so you wouldn't be swallowed up by the masses you're talking about?"

Anyway, Char goes on to tell Amuro his entire plan - he's going to get rid of the people on Earth and turn everyone into spacenoids. Char throws in some philosophical prattle about humanity versus nature, which sounds a lot like Zeon Deikun's theories, and adds that "When I fought the Titans alongside you, it was a good education. I realized that even if you became a politician and tried to reform them from within, it wouldn't do any good. Right now, you're just hanging around like a rat inside the Federation Forces."

To Amuro, this sounds like a different person from the Char he met on Earth, and he demands proof that it's really Char. Char obligingly opens a video channel and shows his face, adding that it doesn't really matter whether he's Char or not. Either way, his fleet is about to take over Sweetwater, and then he'll issue a formal notification to the Federation government. He simply wanted to give Amuro an early heads-up as a courtesy to his former friend and rival. Amuro swears to stop him from purging the Earth, and Char ends their conversation with the cryptic remark, "Excellent! A man with that spirit is truly my comrade!"

And with that, Char goes on about his business. The Ra Zaim goes back to Londenion, and then sets off for Luna II to receive secret new orders; as it leaves, former EGUM leader Zeda Mandilla shows up for a revenge attack, and Amuro is forced to launch in a Base Jabber because all the Jeddas have been taken. The first novel volume ends with Amuro's Base Jabber getting blown up by Zeda's mobile suit. Oooh, cliffhanger!

-- Mark
Last edited by toysdream on Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kobiyashi
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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by kobiyashi » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:16 pm

Thanks Mark! So, to summarize, between Kamille's incident, the aftermath or lack thereof from Dakar, and the Federation's behavior vs Axis, Char realized (through what is probably an internal feedback loop based on his disposition) that the desolation of Earth is the only answer. The "it doesn't matter if I'm Char" comment reminds me of Full Frontal as well.

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by Zeino » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:25 pm

Okay, all this this brings up a question I've been pondering about, where exactly did Char get the followers and the resources for his Neo Zeon movement? Did he just show up sometime after the Battle of Axis in front of what was left of Haman's followers and promised to finally give them victory if they accepted him as their new leader?

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by toysdream » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:29 pm

I'm not sure how much effect Kamille's fate really had here - in Hi-Streamer, he seems pretty callous about it, and it's not clear from the dialogue whether or not he even knew what happened to Kamille. His main argument here is that the war with the Titans showed him how hopeless it was was to try to change the Federation from within.

Amuro seems to be echoing this in the Char's Counterattack movie in one of his conversations with Bright. "Char fought alongside us against anti-Federation people, but that showed him the true nature of the people who remain on Earth, and he truly came to hate them."

As for where Char got his followers: EB 3 says that he was able to gather together a lot of the anti-Federation movements, some of which he'd been secretly encouraging beforehand. But honestly, Char's Neo Zeon isn't that big, so I dunno how many people he would really have needed.

-- Mark

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Re: What happens between ZZ and CCA?

Post by kobiyashi » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:32 pm

I figured that while the "core" of each Zeon iteration was made up of former Zeon and their children, there would always be a somewhat steady stream of new recruits since the Federation never stopped sucking, and there are a lot of people in space.

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