The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

[toysdream]

but they never add "oh, and you also killed billions of innocent spacenoids with poison gas".

Shiro Amada has a flashback to Zeon forces gassing a colony at Side 2 during 08th MS team, so yeah it has been shown on screen.

Although the director of 08th MS Team went on to do a manga in which we're shown that this colony is in fact Island Iffish, the colony that was used for the Operation British colony drop. Likewise, in Gundam The Origin, this is the only colony that's actually gassed - an operation that seems to be so unprecedented that Ramba Ral quits in protest. (If they end up animating this as per the manga, it'll make it that much more official.)

Does that mean all the other colonies get puppies and kittens? Well, no. In The Origin, it appears that the Zeons end up destroying most of the other colonies by more conventional means in the heat of battle, leaving only Island Iffish intact so they can drop it on Earth. But this does mean that the idea of mass colony gassing, first described in Tomino's novels, may not actually apply to the anime continuity.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

The problem is, that's assuming that the Earthnoids *can* abandon the Earth. Frontal's plan would likely create a fair number of refugees from Earth, and the colonies have pretty limited space, so who's to say that they'd accept them? I'm thinking it would more than likely result in a less-extreme Elysium scenario, with Earth as the forgotten backwater ghetto. Hell, everything Frontal says (and Mineva, at that) seems to assume that this is going to happen. You'd need a pretty incredible best-case-scenario for his plan to end in all of humanity living harmoniously in space.

Actually, in episode 6 Full Frontal says that there are 2 billion people living on Earth. If we add up that just 3 years earlier Quess said that the population of the Earth Sphere was back to 11 billion, I think it's within reasonable possibility that the remaining 2 billion people can emigrate to space. Furthermore, in Unicorn we are shown that even on U.C. 0096 new colonies are being built.

[zetatype]

The problem is, that's assuming that the Earthnoids *can* abandon the Earth. Frontal's plan would likely create a fair number of refugees from Earth, and the colonies have pretty limited space, so who's to say that they'd accept them? I'm thinking it would more than likely result in a less-extreme Elysium scenario, with Earth as the forgotten backwater ghetto. Hell, everything Frontal says (and Mineva, at that) seems to assume that this is going to happen. You'd need a pretty incredible best-case-scenario for his plan to end in all of humanity living harmoniously in space.

Actually, in episode 6 Full Frontal says that there are 2 billion people living on Earth. If we add up that just 3 years earlier Quess said that the population of the Earth Sphere was back to 11 billion, I think it's within reasonable possibility that the remaining 2 billion people can emigrate to space. Furthermore, in Unicorn we are shown that even on U.C. 0096 new colonies are being built.

Wait when was this? I remember in episode 1 Banagher mentioned something about his colony expanding, but i never heard anything about new ones being built. In fact was there any major colony construction after the OYW? Even if Quess is right about the population being back up to 11 billion I thought they just fixed up the colonies that got gassed or damaged at the beginning of the OYW and used those.

I think an even greater issue is whether or not the colonies would be willing to front the money and resources to accommodate 2 billion people (or more depending when this mass exodus begins). Without the federation dictating their policy what's to stop them from saying "screw you guys" and leaving the people of earth to their fate.

Also how many people does the average colony hold?

[BrentD15]

Actually, in episode 6 Full Frontal says that there are 2 billion people living on Earth. If we add up that just 3 years earlier Quess said that the population of the Earth Sphere was back to 11 billion, I think it's within reasonable possibility that the remaining 2 billion people can emigrate to space. Furthermore, in Unicorn we are shown that even on U.C. 0096 new colonies are being built.

Wait when was this? I remember in episode 1 Banagher mentioned something about his colony expanding, but i never heard anything about new ones being built. In fact was there any major colony construction after the OYW? Even if Quess is right about the population being back up to 11 billion I thought they just fixed up the colonies that got gassed or damaged at the beginning of the OYW and used those.

Speaking of which, what happened to Side 5?
Was the Shoal Zone cleaned up and the colonies rebuilt, or is it still a scrap field?

[zetatype]

Actually, in episode 6 Full Frontal says that there are 2 billion people living on Earth. If we add up that just 3 years earlier Quess said that the population of the Earth Sphere was back to 11 billion, I think it's within reasonable possibility that the remaining 2 billion people can emigrate to space. Furthermore, in Unicorn we are shown that even on U.C. 0096 new colonies are being built.

Wait when was this? I remember in episode 1 Banagher mentioned something about his colony expanding, but i never heard anything about new ones being built. In fact was there any major colony construction after the OYW? Even if Quess is right about the population being back up to 11 billion I thought they just fixed up the colonies that got gassed or damaged at the beginning of the OYW and used those.

Speaking of which, what happened to Side 5?
Was the Shoal Zone cleaned up and the colonies rebuilt, or is it still a scrap field?

Well since characters in Unicorn still refer to the area as the Shoal zone I'd imagine its still littered with debris. If the area was cleaned up it wouldn't make sense to call it a shoal zone. Also in the beginning of episode 1 Zimmerman mentions that they will lose the federation pursuit ships in the "debris field'. I always figured they were referring to the Shoal zone.

[Deacon Blues]

The problem with that is that shoal zone and debris cluster were used interchangeably. Episode 1 had Zinnerman saying "debris cluster" while later on the same terminology (lest I remember properly) pegged it as a "shoal zone". The only problem with this is they have two different meanings :/

[zetatype]

The problem with that is that shoal zone and debris cluster were used interchangeably. Episode 1 had Zinnerman saying "debris cluster" while later on the same terminology (lest I remember properly) pegged it as a "shoal zone". The only problem with this is they have two different meanings :/

Huh I'm confused, isn't the Shoal zone one giant debris cluster?

If you mean Zimmerman could be referring to a different cluster then yeah that is possible.

[HellCat]

They got Tara Platt (Marida) to do the narration on an English version of the 'Gundam UC in 100 Seconds' video Japan got earlier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPc5a8S0jog

[REMecha00Q]

I know that A new translation is just an alternate take on Zeta, but I'm curious on why footage from that was included in episode EX?

Also, is it just a coincidence, or was that bird form a reference to the bird that appeared in side 6 in MSG.

[Kratos]

The bird was absolutely a reference to the Lalah Swan.

[REMecha00Q]

Thought so. Saw it in an image, but wasn't sure about it until I watched the ova.

[Gelgoog Jager]

The earlier shows point out that Zeon attacked the other spacenoids and that in turn very few in space want anything to do with them. But then Unicorn presents them as a rallying point, literally calling them a light that attracted them.

Zeon was light for spacenoids, at least Zeon Deikun's philosophy was, and to an extent his government and so was the Republic of Zeon.

Full Frontal speaks about Zeon as though it really is a rallying point, and a light and the last hope for spacenoids, that's either what he believes, or what he wants Banagher to think, it doesn't necessarily represent the current state of affairs in an objective way. Even if the Zeon faction is still heavily associated with the Principality and their crimes, there will still be people that support Zeon. Look at how Nazi Germany operated its puppet states and occupied territories, it treated many people like filth, but there were still those who formed the puppet regimes and co-operated and fought with them.

One thing that is often overlooked, is that despite Mashymere's poor results at the Shangri La colony, Haman sent other ships to other colonies in order to rally support for her forces. IIRC, the Mirage of Zeon manga even depicted another such group that managed to get former AEUG and Titan soldiers to join their ranks. Considering that at the time the spacenoids are probably more resented with the EF due to the Titans actions, Haman might have had an easier time getting them on their side.

Moving on the 2nd Neo Zeon war, we do are told that Londo Bell has been inspecting all the colonies looking for clues about Neo Zeon, but that spacenoids in general are helping Char. My guess is that after the Gryps war, many spacenoids began seeing Zeon as a better alternative than the EF. Considering the actions of the EF during UC (assault on Industrial 7, firing of the colony laser), this way of thinking does seem justified.

Also, just to show the other side of the coin, on Earth we also have other anti-EF groups in Africa that decide to join forces with Zeon. And there's the infamous scenes of EF politicians in ZZ that complain about the AEUG no surrendering to Neo Zeon, not hesitating to hand Haman control of the colonies, and actually hoping that the colony drop reduces the amount of mouth they have to feed.

Sorry for doiuble posting, but I got this new question: One of the MSV seen in the story is the Desert Gelgoog, but here's my actual question: When exactly did the Ground Gelgoogs from Lost War Chronicles and Rise from the Ashes and the Desert Gelgoogs first deployed, because I scanned through Mark's timeline, and there's no mention of either variant in there, so when exactly did either variant come out?

From the MSV-R thread:

The MSV-R profile reads as follows:

In October of U.C. 0079, when MS-14 production began, the Zeon forces were confident of the usefulness of the beam weapon-equipped MS-14 and evaluated it for deployment on Earth. Engines and other basic MS-14 parts were delivered to the California Base, and the development of a land warfare type MS-14 was ordered. In about one month, they completed the MS-14G, equipped with a high mobility backpack, and a desert version of the MS-14G. It was decided to begin production at once.

Knockdown production lines were set up, with the main parts produced at Granada. But as the war situation worsened, the California Base's production capacity decreased, and for reasons such as the worsening parts supply the desert version of the MS-14G had to undergo a partial design change. The leg thruster units were removed, and the hover functions were omitted...

This puts the completion of the MS-14G and MS-14GD around November of U.C. 0079, with the California Base doing its best to put these machines into production despite the cutoff of the parts supply from Granada. That seems more or less consistent with previous descriptions of the war situation.

-- Mark

As for the MS-14D, Mark did point out that it might have been converted from a MS-14GD, since the later lacks leg thrusters, and the former has them attached on top of the leg armor. Personally I have another theory about the MS-09G and MS-14D being machines produced in space and sent to Earth, probably specifically to the Zeon remnants that escaped to Africa.

Regarding the OWW, I still think that at least a few colonies do were captured by Zeon, as indicated by a mention of Ramba Ral capturing an industrial colony. I'm not sure what they intended to use the facilities for (perhaps expand MS or other weapons production facilities?), but I think it's safe to assure that they would prefer to keep the population around in order to have workforce for the facilities.

Still, while it makes little sense to go through the trouble of gassing a colony without damaging it (other than for using it for a colony drop), specially when a single nuke would get the work done faster and easier, there might be one other reason for "depopulating" a colony, which would be to assume that Zeon wanted to use them for accommodating their own population. After all by U.C. 0079 is supposedly around 2 billion distributed among just 40 closed type colonies (visually confirmed on MS Igloo), which gives us an average population of 50 million people per colony.

Finally, let's remember that precisely in 0082 and 0083, the EF began sending Island 3 colonies to Side 3 as part of the Colony Reclamation Project in order to cope with Side 3's overpopulation problem, so there do are grounds for such theory.

[excalibur2008]

My guess is that after the Gryps war, many spacenoids began seeing Zeon as a better alternative than the EF.

Which is funny seeing as the Titans probably killed way less people then the Zeon. As I don't recall the Titans going around nuking colonies to the point there is a rather large debris belt in Earth orbit.

Plus even when the EF is being all conniving in Gundam Unicorn, they were still trying to the death total from the Colony Lazer down as opposed to Zeon and their Colony drops.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

My guess is that after the Gryps war, many spacenoids began seeing Zeon as a better alternative than the EF.

Which is funny seeing as the Titans probably killed way less people then the Zeon. As I don't recall the Titans going around nuking colonies to the point there is a rather large debris belt in Earth orbit.

Plus even when the EF is being all conniving in Gundam Unicorn, they were still trying to the death total from the Colony Lazer down as opposed to Zeon and their Colony drops.

I think the Titans gassing a colony for no other reason than citizens holding a peaceful protest against them, and attempting to do so with a couple others throughout Zeta (one of which fails and the other succeeds) while the Federation itself, despite supposedly being in charge of them, not only not punishes them for such actions, but actually handing over control of the entire Federation to the Titans' leader would make a lot of Spacenoids think (and would clearly make the rounds via the AEUG). And that's on top of the Titans attempting to drop a colony on Von Braun and creating the Gryps 2 Colony Laser that anyone could see would be used to simply blow away anyone who dared stand against them.

Aside from the earliest conflicts of the One Year War with the nuking and gassing, I don't recall Zeon really doing much against other colonies as much as they did against Earth. Even when constructing the Solar Ray, they still (forcefully) evacuated the people rather than just gas them first.

[excalibur2008]

Aside from the earliest conflicts of the One Year War with the nuking and gassing, I don't recall Zeon really doing much against other colonies as much as they did against Earth.

Only because they were stopped from nuking Side 6. And no considering Char flat out said Zeon would destroy Side 6 if it tried to help the Federation I don't think you can write off as just crazy renegades

I think the Titans gassing a colony for no other reason than citizens holding a peaceful protest against them, and attempting to do so with a couple others throughout Zeta (one of which fails and the other succeeds) while the Federation itself, despite supposedly being in charge of them, not only not punishes them for such actions, but actually handing over control of the entire Federation to the Titans' leader would make a lot of Spacenoids think (and would clearly make the rounds via the AEUG). And that's on top of the Titans attempting to drop a colony on Von Braun and creating the Gryps 2 Colony Laser that anyone could see would be used to simply blow away anyone who dared stand against them.

And this would be different from what Zeon would do if they ever got power how exactly?

I mean at least the Titans are honest about it instead of bulls@#ting about caring about everyone except Side 3.

Heck The Republic of Zeon was siding with the Titans, so what does that say about them?

[Gelgoog Jager]

Which is funny seeing as the Titans probably killed way less people then the Zeon. As I don't recall the Titans going around nuking colonies to the point there is a rather large debris belt in Earth orbit.

I think the main issue here is that at the time Zeon was basically a foregin nation attacking them, to which the EF reacted (though very late) and condemned their actions. On the other hand, the Titans, and by extent the EF, was the government itself, which was meant to protect them, killing them and giving a free pass to those responsible, and as time passed even granted them more power.

As for the shoal zone, I should remind you that the battle of Side 5 involved both sides nuking the hell out of each other, and IIRC, the more direct responsible for the destruction of the colonies are the EF which began using the colonies as shields after they began losing the battle and their improvised combined fleet fell further into disarray.

Plus even when the EF is being all conniving in Gundam Unicorn, they were still trying to the death total from the Colony Lazer down as opposed to Zeon and their Colony drops.

In Gundam Unicorn Neo Zeon doesn't attempt any colony drop. In fact during Loni's rampage at Torrington, her mentor is telling them that attacking the city is not part of their plan. I should also point out that during the first episode most of the casualties inside Industrial 7 can be directly blamed on the EF that began fighting Marida inside the colony.

Regarding the other colony drops, we know that Operation Biriths was targeted at Jaburo, not Sydney, Operation Stardust was aimed at the north american farmlands which would limit the development of Earth by reducing their foodstocks. Ironically, it's Char's asteroid drops that seemed aimed directly at annihilating as much people as possible, though with the twist that it was meant to force all the population on Earth to immigrate to space.

In another thread I also pointed out how during the Dublin colony drop it looked like Zeon was trying to make a controlled drop that minimized the damage to the planet (judging by the angle the colony fell and how it remained largely in one piece), while some EF politicians fleeing from the surrounding areas were upset that the AEUG wouldn't surrender to Haman, but also glad that the colony drop would reduce the amount of mouths they have to feed.

Aside from the earliest conflicts of the One Year War with the nuking and gassing, I don't recall Zeon really doing much against other colonies as much as they did against Earth.

Only because they were stopped from nuking Side 6. And no considering Char flat out said Zeon would destroy Side 6 if it tried to help the Federation I don't think you can write off as just crazy renegades

I'm not sure where that quote comes from, but the background information pretty much confirms that Side 6 was the ally of the Principality of Zeon, helping them smuggle the materials that the EF prohibited Side 3 from getting after imposing economic sanctions on them. It isn't until late during the OYW when Zeon began losing ground that Side 6 began playing for both sides and eventually stick with the EF.

I think the Titans gassing a colony for no other reason than citizens holding a peaceful protest against them, and attempting to do so with a couple others throughout Zeta (one of which fails and the other succeeds) while the Federation itself, despite supposedly being in charge of them, not only not punishes them for such actions, but actually handing over control of the entire Federation to the Titans' leader would make a lot of Spacenoids think (and would clearly make the rounds via the AEUG). And that's on top of the Titans attempting to drop a colony on Von Braun and creating the Gryps 2 Colony Laser that anyone could see would be used to simply blow away anyone who dared stand against them.

And this would be different from what Zeon would do if they ever got power how exactly?

I mean at least the Titans are honest about it instead of bulls@#ting about caring about everyone except Side 3.

Heck The Republic of Zeon was siding with the Titans, so what does that say about them?

The republic of Zeon has always been said to just be a puppet government of the EF, so no surprises on the Titans getting them involved and adding them to their forces. As for Zeon, the Perfect Victory ending from Gihren's Greed shows Zeon sending the population of Earth to space, which fits with the original idea of Zeon wanting all of mankind to leave Earth, rather than simply killing them as you would imply:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmRT6MwJfJ8

There you go: if Zeon had won, even many EF soldiers get a better ending.

[Kratos]

I think the main issue here is that at the time Zeon was basically a foregin nation attacking them, to which the EF reacted (though very late) and condemned their actions. On the other hand, the Titans, and by extent the EF, was the government itself, which was meant to protect them, killing them and giving a free pass to those responsible, and as time passed even granted them more power.

This is probably as good an explanation for Zeon's steady supply of Spacenoid recruits in spite of past action as any. The One Year War was, well, a war - and one with a readily identifiable perpetrator to boot. The Principality basically had a cult of personality around Gihren, and with him gone and the war over, it's not too much a stretch to believe that Spacenoids who are already feeling disenfranchised might be willing to overlook "his" sins when they sign up with Zeon. However...

IIRC, the more direct responsible for the destruction of the colonies are the EF which began using the colonies as shields after they began losing the battle and their improvised combined fleet fell further into disarray.

Depends on what you read. IIRC, Loum featured so much destruction not because of any one faction's specific actions, but because Minovsky particles resulted in a LOT of blind shooting and colonies got hit? I feel like that's the most common depiction, though I could be wrong. However, I am PRETTY sure the shield thing is from a recent Shin Matsunaga manga that is hilariously apologetic of Zeon, going so far as to depict the Sydney drop as an accident (where Operation British was basically a big game of chicken and it's due to Fed aggression that it ends up actually falling - cue horrified faces of Zeon soldiers <____<). So, yeah, maybe not the BEST source for an unbiased depiction of Zeon.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Depends on what you read. IIRC, Loum featured so much destruction not because of any one faction's specific actions, but because Minovsky particles resulted in a LOT of blind shooting and colonies got hit? I feel like that's the most common depiction, though I could be wrong. However, I am PRETTY sure the shield thing is from a recent Shin Matsunaga manga that is hilariously apologetic of Zeon, going so far as to depict the Sydney drop as an accident (where Operation British was basically a big game of chicken and it's due to Fed aggression that it ends up actually falling - cue horrified faces of Zeon soldiers <____<). So, yeah, maybe not the BEST source for an unbiased depiction of Zeon.

Being perfectly honest, I don't remember where I read the remark about the EF using colonies as shields, though I was quite certain it had been in one of Mark's topics. I certainly haven't read the MSV-R mangas, so I do can scratch that option.

That being said, your remark about "stray nukes due to Minovsky particles" actually further puts the blame on the EF, since MS were precisely meant to overcome such problem by relying on visual data rather than radar. Furthermore, IIRC there was another claim from the background information about some Zaku pilots being lost after they were unable to get away from the ships to which they fired their nuclear rounds, which further reinforces the idea that Zaku pilots were focusing on warships and getting close to destroy them.

On a different note, I finally found the claim about Zeon occupying colonies rather than just destroying them:

"After the One Week Battle, the Zeon forces began producing mobile suits and other weapons in the factory blocks of occupied colonies, and meanwhile the development of new mobile suits began back in the homeland."

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/msv1.html

This reinforces the idea that Zeon was actually trying to occupy the colonies, rather than outright destroying them, as further echoed on the previous apragraph of the same source:

"In January of U.C. 0079, the Principality of Zeon declared a war of independence against the Earth Federation. Simultaneously with their declaration of war, the Zeon forces took control of Sides 1, 2, and 4, and launched "Operation British" by sending a colony falling to Earth."

Basically this would mean that Zeon intended to use the occupied colonies to mass produce Zakus and other weapons, allowing the homeland to focus on the development of new MS. Along with Mark's indication of the use of GG gas probably being limited to the colony used on the colony drop does seem to indicate that Zeon wasn't for the annihilation of the colonies. The Perfect Victory ending from the Gihren's Greed videogames further depicts him simply sending the people living on Earth to space, rather than killing them.

[Kratos]

Not stray nukes - stray SHOTS, like from MPC. Yes, several of the colony kills were likely fired from Federation ships, but that doesn't mean it's their "fault" any more than it is Zeon's for springing an attack on the Fed fleet in the middle of Side 5. But whatever the truth about Loum, we'll likely get an official depiction with THE ORIGIN OVA (and while it's been a while since I've read the relevant volume, but I can confidently say that the Federation does NOT use populated colonies as shields).

And weren't side 1, 2, and 4 among those that got gassed? Iffish, the Operation British colony, was gassed when it was seized, as was Shiro's - what evidence is there that Zeon didn't do the same to every colony it sought a foothold in? Remember: half of humanity died in the opening week of the war, and Side 3 itself was completely untouched. Every other colony was allied with the Federation, and to the best of my knowledge, the Feds have never been depicted attacking colonies (deliberately, or outside Side 5). When you murder countless millions, not slaughtering others after you've achieved a hypothetical victory hardly makes you Ghandi. Gihren is as bad as any of the leadership of the Titans (and is constantly portrayed as such in MSG).

[excalibur2008]

Not stray nukes - stray SHOTS, like from MPC. Yes, several of the colony kills were likely fired from Federation ships, but that doesn't mean it's their "fault" any more than it is Zeon's for springing an attack on the Fed fleet in the middle of Side 5. But whatever the truth about Loum, we'll likely get an official depiction with THE ORIGIN OVA (and while it's been a while since I've read the relevant volume, but I can confidently say that the Federation does NOT use populated colonies as shields).

And weren't side 1, 2, and 4 among those that got gassed? Iffish, the Operation British colony, was gassed when it was seized, as was Shiro's - what evidence is there that Zeon didn't do the same to every colony it sought a foothold in? Remember: half of humanity died in the opening week of the war, and Side 3 itself was completely untouched. Every other colony was allied with the Federation, and to the best of my knowledge, the Feds have never been depicted attacking colonies (deliberately, or outside Side 5). When you murder countless millions, not slaughtering others after you've achieved a hypothetical victory hardly makes you Ghandi. Gihren is as bad as any of the leadership of the Titans (and is constantly portrayed as such in MSG).

Hell, Gihren's own father compared him to Adolf Hitler for god's sake.