The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

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HellCat
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by HellCat » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:16 pm

In part, as I've said, my issue is that I feel ultimately volume 7 leaves us with the view that Zeon were an inevitable response to what the Federation had covered up. Possibly even that if they hadn't rebelled, another spacenoid faction would have emerged to do the same thing and be supposedly justified over the charter tampering.

Plus again, I don't feel Zeon is greatly defined in Unicorn. Aside from Zinnerman and his crew, the only consistent faces are Angelo and Frontal who aren't properly developed. Most of Zeon's pressence in the story is mecha porn, cameos from MSVs new and old to appeal to fans. Compare that to something like the original show which gave us the iconic 'This is the enemy...' scene.

I appreciate that in part Unicorn is of course built on the world building said earlier shows have already covered and that it's aimed more at adult fans, who arguably don't need everything spelled out. But this is supposed to be a Zeon which is the third or fourth wind of effectively a terrorist organization that has done many terrible things, especially in the OYW. Again, episode 7 acknowledges that only to highlight the view that apparently this was just the Federation scapegoating Zeon to continue to hide their own dirty secret. A secret itself which is a bizarre thing to put in a charter to begin with.

The earlier shows point out that Zeon attacked the other spacenoids and that in turn very few in space want anything to do with them. But then Unicorn presents them as a rallying point, literally calling them a light that attracted them. Compare to a faction that was basically the citizens of a single Side getting swept up in blind patriotism or the youth of those who fled the war's end being spun tales about being knights.
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balofo
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by balofo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:25 pm

So if they wanted to do a UC sequel set in 0099 they still have:
-Gryps 2
-3 RX-0s
-Angelo alive
-Magellanica
-Rest of the Neo Zeon Fleet
-Few Earth Zeon Remnants
-General Revil
-Zeon Republic Army

Fukui can pull it off :)

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Angelo Sauper
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Angelo Sauper » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:20 pm

HellCat wrote:The earlier shows point out that Zeon attacked the other spacenoids and that in turn very few in space want anything to do with them. But then Unicorn presents them as a rallying point, literally calling them a light that attracted them.
Zeon was light for spacenoids, at least Zeon Deikun's philosophy was, and to an extent his government and so was the Republic of Zeon.

Full Frontal speaks about Zeon as though it really is a rallying point, and a light and the last hope for spacenoids, that's either what he believes, or what he wants Banagher to think, it doesn't necessarily represent the current state of affairs in an objective way. Even if the Zeon faction is still heavily associated with the Principality and their crimes, there will still be people that support Zeon. Look at how Nazi Germany operated its puppet states and occupied territories, it treated many people like filth, but there were still those who formed the puppet regimes and co-operated and fought with them.

As for Zeon not being too well defined, I somewhat agree with you, but then the novels and background information really do help flesh out the OVA, even if they verge quite differently.

There's not a lot of changes in the OVA I prefer to what I've seen in the novels, but Angelo surviving is one of them.
balofo wrote:So if they wanted to do a UC sequel set in 0099 they still have:

Fukui can pull it off :)
I would like to see something related to 0099, perhaps a minor spin off manga, though I think it would be better if it had minimal direct connections to Unicorn. Initially I thought the finale of Unicorn would deal with 0099 and the dissolution of the Republic, but it didn't. I can't really see a battle happening though. It would be nice to see an animated short of the Zeon fleet ceremonially standing down and a ceremony celebrating the one hundred years.

I feel like Unicorn's finale really needed a face off between Earth Federation and Zeon fleets and a symbolic scene similar to the end of Char's Counterattack. I felt the end of UC 7 was a satisfying conclusion to the characters, it really was their journey, but in the greater context perhaps it was a bit too open ended. It makes me think that they might really ham-fist in something new as a sequel to Unicorn.

Is the Phenex even part of the OVA continuity? I thought the Phenex story made no sense at all in the context of Unicorn.

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balofo
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by balofo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:40 pm

But Angelo also survives in the novel, it's almost the same scene

Phenex is drifting in space since 0095

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:25 am

You know what, I have been giving it some thinking, and I think Full Frontal's plan for the Side Co-Prosperity Zone may actually be more significant that what has been pointed out so far:

For starters, the mere fact that it's a viable option (leaving aside the measures Earth could take against it) means that at least by U.C. 0096, humanity can live in space without using Earth's resources.

On the other hand, assuming that further armed conflcits didn't manage to change the situation, nor eliminate one side completely, the more logical conclusion would be that the people on Earth would have to abandon Earth and live on space as well.

In such scenario, we would basically have all of mankind living in space and Earth would be a sanctum of sorts, which is more or less what some of the less radical ideas of some anti-EF groups have proposed (at least not the ones that simply want to ruel the world).

Between Astaroth, the biological weapon that was supposed to incite the accelarated growth of plants on Earth, Char's claims that he wanted to cause a nuclear winter thinking that it would force mankind to leave Earth while hoping that the planet would eventuallyrestore itself, and Full Frontal's plan that also wanted to cause a desperate situation on Earth, I think there's an attempt to indicate that an important part of the Zeon logic prioritizes the restoration of Earth (even if in the long term) over the preservation of mankind.

And since the topic came up, anyone knows why Gihren would order the gassing of fellow spacenoids, while in the Perfect Victory ending of Gihren's Greed he is simply exiling Earth's population into space? By his twisted logic, shouldn't they also not be considered part of his perfect race?

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Kratos » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:00 am

The problem is, that's assuming that the Earthnoids *can* abandon the Earth. Frontal's plan would likely create a fair number of refugees from Earth, and the colonies have pretty limited space, so who's to say that they'd accept them? I'm thinking it would more than likely result in a less-extreme Elysium scenario, with Earth as the forgotten backwater ghetto. Hell, everything Frontal says (and Mineva, at that) seems to assume that this is going to happen. You'd need a pretty incredible best-case-scenario for his plan to end in all of humanity living harmoniously in space.
Gelgoog Jager wrote:And since the topic came up, anyone knows why Gihren would order the gassing of fellow spacenoids, while in the Perfect Victory ending of Gihren's Greed he is simply exiling Earth's population into space? By his twisted logic, shouldn't they also not be considered part of his perfect race?
While I don't know if he'd murder them all outright - IIRC, the early colony gassings were an attempt to force the Federation into surrendering early, so if the war is already won then why waste the resources committing mass genocide - it does seem kinda strange that he'd go through the effort of relocating the rest of humanity. Relocating humanity seems like more of a Reformed Casval thing to do.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by doghunter1 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:40 am

Kratos wrote:
And hey, at least the OVA turns it down a notch from the novels, where at least two character back stories involves rape-happy Federation soldiers.
What's wrong with making EF soldiers rapists? If I remember correctly, it's not just the Axis that were rape-happy back in World War II, the Allies had their fair share of war crimes. Russian troops raped all the women they could find until Berlin.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Kratos » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:55 am

Because it's a cheap way to write drama into your story? And because Fukui does it twice, and solely as a means of motivation for other characters. It's the same reason that I take issue with his use of Islam in the novels - yeah, in certain situations and when handled with due tact and given enough space to explore, it could a good device to use. But he uses it as a shortcut to TRAGEDY! and I think that's cheap and uncreative and needlessly grimdark.
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zetatype
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by zetatype » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:44 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
And since the topic came up, anyone knows why Gihren would order the gassing of fellow spacenoids, while in the Perfect Victory ending of Gihren's Greed he is simply exiling Earth's population into space? By his twisted logic, shouldn't they also not be considered part of his perfect race?
I can't remember which incarnation it was (TV series, movies, or manga) but in the scene where Gihren is getting Degwin to sign off on the colony laser he comments on how the war has reduced humanity's population to a more manageable size and that after the war he will impose restrictions on who can breed to prevent overpopulation. I suppose its possible that before the war he thought that even with all the colonies humanity's population was exceeding its ability to sustain itself. Though "manageable size" could just mean a size that is easier to maintain an iron grip on.

However I think a more likely reason for gassing colonies was free up more room and resources for his own people/Zeon.

The whole "Fight for the freedom of the spacenoids" has always come off a bit as propaganda to serve as a flimsy justification for the actions of Zeon's leaders. Rather than "Fight for the spacenoids" its more "Fight for Zeon Spacenoids and everyone else is a secondary concern"
Its kinda like Japan in early WWII where they claimed they were fighting to free the Asian countries from the western powers, IIRC.

It is also possible that he gassed those colonies because he knew they wouldn't join Zeon.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by HellCat » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:12 am

Or in a horrible accident, someone mixed up the canisters containing balloons and puppies.

"Excellent, you've launched the payload. Are our spacenoid brothers and sisters delighted?....What?....WHAT?! ...Of course I didn't sign off on deadly posion gas! These were supposed to be tokens to spur our brothers in arms to come join us in revolution! How did this even happen?.....You're telling me our colonies are big enough to hide thousands of Zakus but you can't keep two vastly different types of containers apart?! Oh, this is shambles! The reign of Ghiren the Party King is over before it even began!....Well nothing left to do but to commit to it now, I guess..."
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Kratos » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:20 am

Somewhere, in some parallel universe, Gihren actually did accidentally release canisters filled with balloons and puppies, and was forced to take up the mantle of the Party King. It's what the People demanded.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by doghunter1 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:07 am

Kratos wrote:
Because it's a cheap way to write drama into your story? And because Fukui does it twice, and solely as a means of motivation for other characters.
I get that, but then, Gundam never did war rape before, and not only that, there was one case it was used before (the 08th MS Team novels), but I'm getting reports a certain someone didn't get raped in those novels. So what, never use war rape at all?

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:16 pm

toysdream wrote:I'd suggest that Unicorn may be trying less to glorify Zeon, and more to come up with some kind of plausible in-universe reason why anyone listens to these nutjobs at all. :-)

-- Mark
I'd pretty much agree. The problem is that I'm perfectly fine with the idea that the Zeon movement -- especially by CCA, where it's gone from a nation-state whose citizens could legitimately find themselves supporting it without necessarily being bad people themselves to an unusually large and well-armed terrorist group -- are just a bunch of nutjobs who no one should be listening to. The fact that Unicorn wants to portray their position as at-all reasonable is the problem.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by BrentD15 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:26 pm

doghunter1 wrote:
Kratos wrote:
Because it's a cheap way to write drama into your story? And because Fukui does it twice, and solely as a means of motivation for other characters.
I get that, but then, Gundam never did war rape before, and not only that, there was one case it was used before (the 08th MS Team novels)
I think you forgot the 00 novels.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by doghunter1 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:23 pm

BrentD15 wrote:
doghunter1 wrote:
Kratos wrote:
Because it's a cheap way to write drama into your story? And because Fukui does it twice, and solely as a means of motivation for other characters.
I get that, but then, Gundam never did war rape before, and not only that, there was one case it was used before (the 08th MS Team novels)
I think you forgot the 00 novels.
Wait, there's rape in there too. Do tell.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by doghunter1 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:40 pm

Sorry for doiuble posting, but I got this new question: One of the MSV seen in the story is the Desert Gelgoog, but here's my actual question: When exactly did the Ground Gelgoogs from Lost War Chronicles and Rise from the Ashes and the Desert Gelgoogs first deployed, because I scanned through Mark's timeline, and there's no mention of either variant in there, so when exactly did either variant come out?

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by toysdream » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:43 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:I'd pretty much agree. The problem is that I'm perfectly fine with the idea that the Zeon movement -- especially by CCA, where it's gone from a nation-state whose citizens could legitimately find themselves supporting it without necessarily being bad people themselves to an unusually large and well-armed terrorist group -- are just a bunch of nutjobs who no one should be listening to. The fact that Unicorn wants to portray their position as at-all reasonable is the problem.
Unfortunately, it's a matter of official record that people do continue to take Zeon seriously, and it's way too late now to try and take that back. So I think as a creator you're better off coming up with some kind of in-story explanation, than to just gloss over the question or write some kind of Zeon-bashing opus that's incompatible with the attitudes we've seen in every other Gundam story.

As a corollary to this, I'd also note that many of the crimes associated with Zeon - especially the wholesale extermination of billions of other space colonists - have never been depicted or even mentioned in the official, i.e. animated, works. People talk a lot about the colony drop, both in terms of its impact on Earth and the symbolic sin of turning the spacenoids' homes into WMDs, but they never add "oh, and you also killed billions of innocent spacenoids with poison gas". That seems like the rhetorical equivalent of denouncing Hitler by harping on about the invasion of Poland.

It's a matter of onscreen record that half the human race was killed in the first month of the One Year War, and that most of the Sides were devastated. But I don't think the official filmed works, unlike the spinoff publications, have ever been very clear about how.

Am I proposing some kind of Gundam-world form of holocaust denial about Zeon war crimes? Well, maybe! But if we'd somehow managed to go through the entire UC saga watching only the animated works, and somehow avoided ever looking at the published books or fan sites, we might have a different view of the pros and cons of Zeon - and one in which Unicorn's commentary seemed like a fairly sensible explanation for the way people treat them in previous works.

-- Mark

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by BrentD15 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:53 pm

doghunter1 wrote:
BrentD15 wrote:
I think you forgot the 00 novels.
Wait, there's rape in there too. Do tell.[/quote]
Spoiler
Show
Ali al Saachez rapes Nena Trinity.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by excalibur2008 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:27 pm

toysdream wrote: but they never add "oh, and you also killed billions of innocent spacenoids with poison gas".
Shiro Amada has a flashback to Zeon forces gassing a colony at Side 2 during 08th MS team, so yeah it has been shown on screen.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Kratos » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:30 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:The fact that Unicorn wants to portray their position as at-all reasonable is the problem.
And I don't think that's what Unicorn is actually doing. As Mark suggested, it's offering explanations for continued belief in Zeon, but not actual justifications, and that's a small but important difference. Marida's "Light of Zeon" talk comes directly after an active discussion of Zeon war crimes, and even it's more "here's why people believe in it despite all that" than "here's why Zeon is actually good and righteous". And all of the likable Zeon-allied characters eventually shrug off the dead weight of their cause, or die because of it. Even Mineva, who arguably never sides with Neo Zeon or its ideals in the series, goes out of her way to dissociate herself from it when speaking to the Earth Sphere.

All that is reinforced by the portrayal of Neo Zeon and the Remnants in the series, too. Especially the former - the Sleeves are always shown to be vaguely shifty and untrustworthy (mostly through Frontal), and that never actually changes. The Federation is portrayed as something approaching a protagonist faction for a good half of the series, and even at its most villainous, it's under the thrawl of the Vist Foundation (and has characters actively identifying as Federation soldiers working on the side of our heroes, unlike Zinnerman et al, who have largely left their Zeon affiliation behind).

So, no, I don't agree that Unicorn seeks to justify Zeon as a cause. The closest I get is admitting that, yeah, it portrays the Federation in the most unsavory light since Zeta, and so Zeon can look rosier by comparison than it usually does. But looking closely at what Unicorn says about Zeon, I don't see any whitewashing. But I think we've actually had this argument before, so we might have to just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
toysdream wrote:As a corollary to this, I'd also note that many of the crimes associated with Zeon - especially the wholesale extermination of billions of other space colonists - have never been depicted or even mentioned in the official, i.e. animated, works. People talk a lot about the colony drop, both in terms of its impact on Earth and the symbolic sin of turning the spacenoids' homes into WMDs, but they never add "oh, and you also killed billions of innocent spacenoids with poison gas". That seems like the rhetorical equivalent of denouncing Hitler by harping on about the invasion of Poland.
It could also be something like the crimes of Stalin - millions upon millions were killed by his regime, more than in the Holocaust, but that's always kinda...glossed over, only really known by those who study history actively and seriously. Hell, we went through a period where there was no bigger bad than the Soviet Union, and yet those mass murders remain relatively obscure bits of trivia. It could be something like that - a tragedy lost in all the noise of the more visible tragedies of the war.
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